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OPINION: Pats WANT an uncapped 2010


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My comments in red.

If there is a lockout in 2011 he'll be eating all the bonus money he paid out to frontload contracts if there is a lockout, the contract is suspened. It will pick up where it left off when football is played again. Players don't get a windfall. as you perceive him doing in 2010 at a time when his revenue stream drops from in excess of $250M to around $30M but his NFL operating expenses go to zero. He will still get income from the stadium and Patriots place (along with every one else, the new Direct TV deal that will pay even if games aren't played - while the debt service on his stadium and construction of Patriot Place still has to be accounted for with no broadcast TV revenue or gate receipts or anscillary revenue from marketing or his own programming.

Yeah, he's positively gleeful about an uncapped 2010... He is on record as saying an uncapped year is probably necessary to right the ship. I don't know about gleeful, but he certainly isn't afaid of it. Couldn't have planned it any better...

Some of you are easier to spin than a cheap plastic top.
I think this is a good discussion.
 
I see AZ is one of those who believes if he shouts it it must be true.

I believe what the PATS want is a better CBA with a cap. In effect, the old status quo plus a couple of guaranteed money give backs. The uncapped season wasn't something they just came up with, it was the opt out in any final CBA year absent an extension. The PATS actually brokered the crappy deal that landed everyone in this predicament just to avoid 2006 being the last capped season and 2007 being an uncapped season...

The PATS didn't find a loophole they could exploit in 2010, the final 8 plan is a poison pill provision of this expiring CBA crafted after those contracts you cite that expire in 2010 were negotiated...All those contracts you think they preplanned for 2010 were negotiated at a time when they either thought either 2007 would be the uncapped year or the CBA would be extended through 2012 (like the TV deal).

Expanding the regular season won't net players a thing. The wear and tear over time will cost them a season per career and the extra revenue generated per season will be gobbled up by the expanded rosters it would take to play ...Owners still want to renegotiate the sharing of the pie %.

The owners in agreeing to share expanded revenue with each other found themselves stuck sharing it with the players too. And they were so focused on their own internal dispute the NFLPA picked up a few more plums and didn't give back a damn thing - it was a one sided negotiation. Tagliabue was more concerned about retiring without a work stoppage on his epitaph than saving ownership from themselves and Upshaw took that opportunity to re-write his own soon to be epitaph. That's the problem... In order to mollify the have nots and avert an uncaped year and a potential work stoppage they opened pandora's box in front of the NFLPA and now they are pulling out all the stops to present a united front in an effort to get the damn thing closed again...

Bob Kraft wants a league with fixed costs and profitability. And he doesn't want to be punished for being a superior marketer or bound to underwrite those unwilling to make similar efforts on their own behalf. He wants to be able to own a winning franchise that is a financially stable and successful business venture based on the quality of his product and his management. He doesn't believe that investments outside the collective in which his capital is all that is at risk should automatically benefit either Ralph Wilson or Mike Vrabel...

If there is a lockout in 2011 he'll be eating all the bonus money he paid out to frontload contracts as you perceive him doing in 2010 at a time when his revenue stream drops from in excess of $250M to around $30M (along with every one else, the new Direct TV deal that will pay even if games aren't played - while the debt service on his stadium and construction of Patriot Place still has to be accounted for with no broadcast TV revenue or gate receipts or anscillary revenue from marketing or his own programming.

Yeah, he's positively gleeful about an uncapped 2010... Couldn't have planned it any better...

Some of you are easier to spin than a cheap plastic top.


Actually I agree with all your historical points. We are in unison. Wilson was right and Kraft was wrong in the last CBA negiotiations. I said so, did I not? I only take exception to your conclusions.

in lockout 2011, as long as it lasts, probably a game or three, the Pats have NO player payments to make. The Lockout merely pushes all contracts out by the length of a lockout. Say it lasted the entire season; then the players get zilch in 2011 and the signed contracts have just been extended another year. As most existing contracts are currently back-loaded, they will more likely never see those years as their careers end before their contracts do.

You are correct that Kraft is out the money he fronted to the player in uncapped 2010, but every player that he would have signed in capped 2010 has the exact same same deal anyways in uncpped 2010 and no difference. His only increased outlay is for front-loaded roster bonuses paid in 2010, for all the stars that he wouldn't have been able to keep in the capped 2010 year. But he apys no salaries in locked out 2011. Meanwhile he would have a great oportunity for another prfitable Super bowl appearance, not havingbeen decimated by defections.

I tried to make a distinction between what the league of Owners are doing and want. And what the Patriots and Kraft individually are doing. You don't. The owners collectively have decided to accept an Uncapped year in 2010 and force a work stoppage as early as possible to force a re-negotiation of the present CBA, via a Lockout in 2011. Given that that is going to happen; and Kraft and Belichick can't stop it, they have chosen a strategy that is best for a good club like the Patriots in such a circumstance.

They know that they can't sign anybody else's UFAs by the restrictions. They never wanted to do much there, and hisitorically never have, Rosey and AD are the only big UFA deals in a decade. Their strategy is merely to want to preventand minimize others from poaching their own good players.

They know now that they can sign ALL their own, without let or hindrance, especially if they are new contracts, in an Uncapped year. And the CBA restrictions will help by making much less of a market for their good players, (fewer clubs can play) to go elsewhere. And it also reduces the number of players (Six years of credited service in the league are needed) that can even consider doing so.

By the way your observation about the cash flow in 2011 are true in either case. But not quite what you decry. Having lots of ways to make additional money & now being forced to share, in the last preparations for the current CBA, Bob Kraft has found another money maker.

Patriot Place is that money maker, and he doesn't share it with any other team. He merely trades on the Patriots name and uses the property and parking spaces for additional income even in Lockout 2011. Patriot Place more than pays the taxes on the theoretically unused land of Gillette Stadium and environs everyday, and will continue in Lockout 2011. Building shopping centers makes a lot of people wealthy as long as they are rented and Patriots Place is. So Kraft earns lots more than the $30 million from Direct TV.

Long term, beyond the cash flow problems of an inevitable Lockout 2011, the Patriots will be a money maker as long as they are a winner. Finding a mechanism to lockup all his stars long term with minimal defections, almost guarantees that the Patriots remain a contender and extremely profitable, for another 6-10 years, as the major cash outlays were made in 2010. Don't forget athletic enterprises depreciate their players like machine tools. He will have lots of depreciation offsets to minimize his taxes in 2010 and prepare for 2011.:D:D:D
 
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I hate to break this to you but the players he lavishes those front loaded deals you envision on will be a two years older when they return from a lockout. And Bob Kraft doesn't have the kind of $$ you all seem to think he has for spending that was previously referred to as cash over cap. They are second in revenue, but 5th in before tax net operating expenses. Others with 100K seat state of the art taxpayer funded stadiums will be coming on line in 2010. Debt service takes a bite out of his revenue stream that they don't have to account for. They still owe over a quarter of a billion on Gillette. God knows what they're into for Patriots Place, which didn't build itself..., which will be a pretty quiet place if there is a lockout. It's not exactly packin' 'em in now. And he's not going to go out of pocket because that's not who he is. He also understands that the player deals he does in 2010 will impact the player deals he has to do in 2012. Just like the deals that idiot in DC has done for the last several years impacted everyone else in the league. And he knows that while it's looking like the uncapped season will play out, it may not... That is what most of the spin rhetoric is geared towards achieving.

There is a world of difference between not being afraid of something and wanting it. Three years ago he was so afraid of it he helped broker a bad stopgap solution to avoid it. He now realizes that and knows that the league has to do whatever it has to do to get a CBA the majority of owners can live with and prosper. He values the collective and what the model and it's stability has meant to franchise values. More than half of the teams in this league derive more than half of their franchise value from merely being part of this heretofore well run league with no labor problems and a salary cap and pooled television revenues that almost entirely cover player salaries.

He has 3 Lombardi's in the trophy case. He isn't going to jeopardize long term good for a shot at short term gain.

And while Wilson was right about the % being untenable, he was one of the ring leaders who opened Pandora's Box because getting his mitts into other owners pockets seemed more important to him at the time than paying attention to what the Union was doing while ownership squabbled amongst themselves.
 
Whether or not the Patriots WANT an uncapped year in 2010 depends on sophisticated analysis of the tree of possible negotiating outcomes, based on a lot of data that we aren't privy to and can't make great guesses about.

But they clearly are preparing themselves for the significant POSSIBILITY of an uncapped year.

Career-ending injuries and the like aside, the Pats are already set on personnel for 2010 except at a couple of positions, ASSUMING they resign all their players, or else that they sign replacements (as -- without checking the details of the uncapped year rules -- I presume they would be allowed to do). And even at those positions -- S and LB -- they sort of have enough talent to squeak by.

Sacrificing a guy like Vrabel now may be exactly what was needed under the screwy uncapped=year rules. I really don't think he was a terrible value for 2009 -- but he wasn't necessarily a guy you cared much about having on your roster going into an uncapped 2010. And similarly, that may be why there's not a lot of excitement about following Rodney's rehab ...
 
Bob Kraft is a top owner and power borker in the league because he is a good businessman. What's good for the league is to have a new agreement with a salary cap and that is what Kraft will want and push for. Being prepared for another possible outcome is good sound business management.

But there is no benefit to either side for an uncapped year

New England Patriots Examiner: Why the NFL and the NFLPA will never allow an uncapped 2010 season

The problem is, the NFL and the NFLPA built so many poison pills into the uncapped season that it might actually be harder to spend money than it is with a salary cap.

An uncapped year will caus eharm to a great product at a time of all time high interest in a league. They would be dumb to blow it.
 
One other criticism--BB is strongly opposed to increasing the game-day roster beyond 45 because it would increase specialization and decrease the value of versatility. This has nothing to do (to him) with $$ issues.
 
Excellent thread, people. As to Kraft, I am concerned about his personal exposure with the debt service from Gillette (most other owners are building using taxpayer money) and his exposure on Patriot Place. No way is PP runing at a profit now in this economy. A lockout will exacerbate his financial situation.

No, wait. Here I am worried about the finances of a billionaire. :) Amazing what being a fan of a football team does to one's outlook!
 
Somewhere in the discussion it should be noted that an uncapped year doesn't just mean the teams can spend as much as they like, it would also mean they can spend as little as they like.

No salary cap, no salary floor. If a team like the Bengals or Lions just wanted to pay a bunch of fringe players and put them out on the field for super-cheap money...they could do that.
 
This is a good thread and a discussion...I think the Pats have planned either way with this situation..so that whichever way it goes, it will be OK for the team. I think to do anything else would be foolhardy. If some think they have done that basically put all in one place...then will the team NOT be prepared if a CBA is agreed upon?? If one thinks the former..why??
 
Somewhere in the discussion it should be noted that an uncapped year doesn't just mean the teams can spend as much as they like, it would also mean they can spend as little as they like.

No salary cap, no salary floor. If a team like the Bengals or Lions just wanted to pay a bunch of fringe players and put them out on the field for super-cheap money...they could do that.

The KC Royals and Florida Marlins solution. But the NFL owners don't want that. Eventually baseball will have to contract. There are probably 4-8 franchsies that don't have a long range future. They are slowly dying in the good times that we have experienced. An extensive period of Bad Times would kill them.
 
I hate to break this to you but the players he lavishes those front loaded deals you envision on will be a two years older when they return from a lockout. And Bob Kraft doesn't have the kind of $$ you all seem to think he has for spending that was previously referred to as cash over cap. They are second in revenue, but 5th in before tax net operating expenses. Others with 100K seat state of the art taxpayer funded stadiums will be coming on line in 2010. Debt service takes a bite out of his revenue stream that they don't have to account for. They still owe over a quarter of a billion on Gillette. God knows what they're into for Patriots Place, which didn't build itself..., which will be a pretty quiet place if there is a lockout. It's not exactly packin' 'em in now. And he's not going to go out of pocket because that's not who he is. He also understands that the player deals he does in 2010 will impact the player deals he has to do in 2012. Just like the deals that idiot in DC has done for the last several years impacted everyone else in the league. And he knows that while it's looking like the uncapped season will play out, it may not... That is what most of the spin rhetoric is geared towards achieving.

There is a world of difference between not being afraid of something and wanting it. Three years ago he was so afraid of it he helped broker a bad stopgap solution to avoid it. He now realizes that and knows that the league has to do whatever it has to do to get a CBA the majority of owners can live with and prosper. He values the collective and what the model and it's stability has meant to franchise values. More than half of the teams in this league derive more than half of their franchise value from merely being part of this heretofore well run league with no labor problems and a salary cap and pooled television revenues that almost entirely cover player salaries.

He has 3 Lombardi's in the trophy case. He isn't going to jeopardize long term good for a shot at short term gain.

And while Wilson was right about the % being untenable, he was one of the ring leaders who opened Pandora's Box because getting his mitts into other owners pockets seemed more important to him at the time than paying attention to what the Union was doing while ownership squabbled amongst themselves.

The players will be signed between the end of the 2009 season and the beginning of the 2010 season. With their new contracts they will play in the 2010 season, and also compete for the Super bowl. The Patriots will make money in 2009 season and also in the 2010 season. By the terms of the CBA the union can't have a work stoppage before then. Neither can the owners.

The Lockout comes in 2011. We are talking about a Lockout situation almost three years from now. And two profitable seasons.

So Kraft pays out some money to re-sign his 2010 players than he makes money as he competes for a Super Bowl in the 2010 season, after having competed with a 2009 team for the Super Bowl.

Now I tried to make it clear that the players kept would have front-loaded contracts, as is true today and yesterday. But in Uncapped 2010 contract they will merely change the title of the money from "signing bonus" to "roster bonus" or "completion bonus". But the proportion is always adjustable. The ideal contract would be all front-end load in Uncapped 2010, and nothing but minimum salaries over the several years of the contract.

But as you correctly pointed out Kraft's pockets are not infinitely deep. (Neither are mine!)

So the reality is some adjustable mixture. Kraft would set a signing cash expenditure budget, in 2010, just as they do today. Its called a "Cash over Cap" budget. Then the negotiators will have to live with in it,just as they do today. The less Kraft can front end, in 2010, the higher the subsequent years salaries would have to be, in the contracts negotiated. The only thing is that it will be an unusually large sum, because there are so many contracts up for renewal.

But in all cases the resultant future years CAP profile would contain little amortization for non existent signing bonuses from contracts negotiated in 2010. Keeping or dismissing a player would be based on the Players contribution versus that years salary, and little else. Incidently, the flexibility to trade such players would no longer be concerned with CAP considerations. so expect trades to become much more common.
 
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I am curious about these poison pills that exist now...Will they work and drive both sides to getting a CBA done OR are they not strong enough at this point in time?? If a new CBA is done should the poison pills be stronger to prevent other situations like this?? Just curious...I really think they COULD be effective..but with things the way they are..many yeams might opt more for taking advantage of no salary floor than having a new CBA. Thoughts?
 
I am curious about these poison pills that exist now...Will they work and drive both sides to getting a CBA done OR are they not strong enough at this point in time?? If a new CBA is done should the poison pills be stronger to prevent other situations like this?? Just curious...I really think they COULD be effective..but with things the way they are..many yeams might opt more for taking advantage of no salary floor than having a new CBA. Thoughts?

Everyone say the "Poison Pills" hurt both Players and Owners. But as far as I see, when explored in depth, it hurts only the players. Except for a star or two, and maybe a rogue owner or two, like Dan Snyder who would try to "Steinbrenner" the League. The "Poison Pill" rules prevent him from doing so, in an attempt to "buy" a championship. The pills only help the majority of owners.
 
Hmmm - so the owners actually WANT to spend more on players!!! I guess the problem the owners had with the CBA they just dissolved was that they felt it wasn't generous enough with the players. Who would have thunk it.

So let's see - if the players don't want to see a cap on salaries, and the owners don't want to see a cap on salaries - why does anyone think there's going to be an impasse in the next CBA?

(I suppose some might have a theory that if the owners are going into negotiations with the players, the LAST thing they'd want to admit to the players is that they're not willing to move forward without a cap... but what do they know?)
 
Everyone say the "Poison Pills" hurt both Players and Owners. But as far as I see, when explored in depth, it hurts only the players. Except for a star or two, and maybe a rogue owner or two, like Dan Snyder who would try to "Steinbrenner" the League. The "Poison Pill" rules prevent him from doing so, in an attempt to "buy" a championship. The pills only help the majority of owners.
So you think with the posion pills really not affecting the owners as a whole then THAT alone will drive the push to NOT get to a CBA?? If that is the case, then the players should want to get this done in a hurry??
 
Yes but realize that the Uncapped 2010 and or Uncapped 2011 and or Uncapped 2012 are special cases, provided for in an existing CBA that covers the NFL until 2012.

After that it would be completely wide open like MLB and Snyder becomes a Steinbrenner with his 93,000 seat sold out stadium. It wouldn't be long before the NFL started talking about contracting team that aren't competitive andthe NFL would resemble baseball.

Now as Red Sox are "haves", people in New Engalnd don't see it but believe me there are many baseball cities and teams barely hanging on.

The owners think the the NFL players wouldn't hold out and would re-sign a next CBA long before 2013, restoring the draft, a hard cap etc.
 
Yes but realize that the Uncapped 2010 and or Uncapped 2011 and or Uncapped 2012 are special cases, provided for in an existing CBA that covers the NFL until 2012.

After that it would be completely wide open like MLB and Snyder becomes a Steinbrenner with his 93,000 seat sold out stadium. It wouldn't be long before the NFL started talking about contracting team that aren't competitive andthe NFL would resemble baseball.

Now as Red Sox are "haves", people in New Engalnd don't see it but believe me there are many baseball cities and teams barely hanging on.

The owners think the the NFL players wouldn't hold out and would re-sign a next CBA long before 2013, restoring the draft, a hard cap etc.

No, it doesn't. The CBA expires after the 2010 season with the exception of providing for a 2011 college draft. It was scheduled to run through 2012 but the vote in 2008 to opt out voided the last two seasons of that agreement. There will be no CBA covering the 2011 and 2012 seasons unless a new one is agree upon before then.

That is why owners will lock players out, to force an agreement or de-certify the union so they can open negotiations with another union. The league can't operate within their anti trust exemptions absent a collectively bargained workforce. And while contracts toll in cases of retirement or suspension or players refusal to report, I question why some here assume they would toll in a lockout...because that is a circumstance beyond the players control.
 
Excellent thread, a lot to chew on.

Is there a firm deadline when it will be determined if 2010 will be capped?

Has anyone answered this question? I haven't seen any timeframes as to when we'll know for sure.
 
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