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Omar Kelly on possible Vjax to Pats


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It's also a passing game which has been very limited against good defenses.
Every passing game is limited against very good defenses. This myth that it is a Patriot issue is silly.


Just because it has been the focal point doesnt mean it needs to continue to be so.
No it doesn't but when you have an incredibly effective passing game changing the focal point is more likely to hurt than help.


It's also a passing game which has been very limited against good defenses, how does the offense need to change in order to become more successful in the post season?
You said that twice. It needed to catch one routine pass.



Has it been the focal point because limitations in personal made it the best option relative to others? If there are changes then perhaps it would be more productive for Welker not to be the focal point.
That makes no sense really, because it has worked extremely well. When you have arguably the best, change for change sake is ill-advised.

If you mess with the strength of this team, its passing game, what do you have left? The passing game has covered for a severe lack of other strengths.

Aside from coaching, can you name another strength on this team that was 27-5 the last 2 regular seasons and just got to a SB?
 
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welker is much different from tons of WR's just like slot guys are different from deep threats.
No he really isn't. The means may be different than some (not many) but results are results. Your argument wasn't that he is different but that he couldn't produce on other teams, and that is BS.


the pats came within a hair of reproducing this year's results with reche caldwell and a 35 year old troy brown as wideouts.
On a team with a whole bunch of other strengths. If you tell me the 2003 Patriots are walking through the door, then we don't need Welker or any standout WRs, but if the 2010-2011 Patriots had Reche Caldwell and 35 yr old troy Brown at WR, they would have struggled to .500 and probably not gotten there.


sure it's not as much fun for tommy-boy, but the pats didn't hesitate moving on from deion branch when they really could have used him.
They didnt move on from Branch, he refused to stay.

backing up the truck for welker is a bad move IMO more so because I don't think they will have to ..... his market is not going to be that big.
Not sure what you mean by backing up the truck, but he should be paid his value, which is one of the few best receivers in the league, and if necessary, we should pay a premium for continuity.


not sayig that the pats need to make a change, but he is not a damn the torpedoes, must-have.
Aside from Brady he is the next must have.
 
The biggest problem is that the pats won't want to give long term deals with Gronk and Hernandez big pay day coming.

I could see them signing a FA WR for a 1-2 year deal, but how many would want that.
 
Every passing game is limited against very good defenses. This myth that it is a Patriot issue is silly

- I never said it was a Patriot issue, to insinuate that I did is an attempt at a strawman argument.

- some teams are more limited by good defenses that others, if one is too one dimensional and the opposition is good at countering your strength than you have a problem.


No it doesn't but when you have an incredibly effective passing game changing the focal point is more likely to hurt than help

I actually think that TFB is the focal point, not Welker, but that's a different discussion.

You said that twice. It needed to catch one routine pass

Maybe, but if we'd been more diversified maybe we wouldnt have needed that catch because we'd have had a bigger lead.

That makes no sense really, because it has worked extremely well. When you have arguably the best, change for change sake is ill-advised

If you mess with the strength of this team, its passing game, what do you have left? The passing game has covered for a severe lack of other strengths.

Aside from coaching, can you name another strength on this team that was 27-5 the last 2 regular seasons and just got to a SB?

- Again, I never said we should change for it's own sake, stop making strawman arguments. I think the offense should change to become stronger.

- Why do you think I want to lessen the strenth of the passing game simply because I'm opining that it might be a problem to have Welker as THE focal point of the offense.
 
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No he really isn't. The means may be different than some (not many) but results are results. Your argument wasn't that he is different but that he couldn't produce on other teams, and that is BS..

not different but different? which one is it? welker is not a 1500 yard guy in the playoffs.



On a team with a whole bunch of other strengths. If you tell me the 2003 Patriots are walking through the door, then we don't need Welker or any standout WRs, but if the 2010-2011 Patriots had Reche Caldwell and 35 yr old troy Brown at WR, they would have struggled to .500 and probably not gotten there.

yes, because they have decided to spend a whole lot more money and high draft picks on offense and a lot less money and high draft picks on defense


They didnt move on from Branch, he refused to stay..

you mean they refused to negotiate with him so he wanted to leave



Not sure what you mean by backing up the truck, but he should be paid his value, which is one of the few best receivers in the league, and if necessary, we should pay a premium for continuity.
.


I disagree......outside of brady, the pats have never paid a premium for continuity.


Aside from Brady he is the next must have.

only if you want to remain a strictly offense-oriented team
 
- I never said it was a Patriot issue, to insinuate that I did is an attempt at a strawman argument.
Sure you did. You said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake Eyes
It's also a passing game which has been very limited against good defenses.


- some teams are more limited by good defenses that others, if one is too one dimensional and the opposition is good at countering your strength than you have a problem.
And the Patriots do better against very good defenses than just about any team, just as they do against bad and average ones.





I actually think that TFB is the focal point, not Welker, but that's a different discussion.
It depends on how you define it. Sure the offense is built around Brady, but given that we are a passing offense, the QB really can't be the focal point, in terms of what routes you run, and how you structure your pattern combos can't be based on the QB it has to be based on the receivers and how they are defended.



Maybe, but if we'd been more diversified maybe we wouldnt have needed that catch because we'd have had a bigger lead.
What? If we threw more to lesser players we would be better? Come on.
The point is that the offense played well enough to ice that game if that routine catch was made.



- Again, I never said we should change for it's own sake, stop making strawman arguments. I think the offense should change to become stronger.

The offense is the or close to the best, and your comment was
If there are changes then perhaps it would be more productive for Welker not to be the focal point.
Perhaps doing something different would be better than the or close to the best, is a classic example of change for change sake.

- Why do you think I want to lessen the strenth of the passing game simply because I'm opining that it might be a problem to have Welker as THE focal point of the offense.

I don't think you want to weaken the passing game on purpose, but what you want will have that result. Welker had the 19th most receiving yards of any WR single season in history. The Patriots had the second highest passing totals in NGL history. You want to take the most successful part of the team and make wholesale changes. Thats not sound thinking.
 
The biggest problem is that the pats won't want to give long term deals with Gronk and Hernandez big pay day coming.

I could see them signing a FA WR for a 1-2 year deal, but how many would want that.

You could be right, I suppose it all depends how they plan on approaching things. After all, the cap will increase significantly by the time (2014) both of the TE's are due, so that factor may possibly come into play.

If they are looking for a short term solution at WR, then Reggie Wayne would be my clear cut choice. He fits into the description that you provided in terms of the short length of yrs on the deal. He would probably be cost effective too, and he is likely going to be an upgrade over Branch.

I'm still not even close to being convinced that this team is going to throw a bunch of money at a 'big name' WR for a long term deal this yr, so we may have to try and make the usual slighter upgrades than most people want. Either way, I expect an upgrade to be made, and I would also expect a draft pick too.
 
not different but different? which one is it? welker is not a 1500 yard guy in the playoffs.
Thats a ridiculous comment. He is the same player in the playoffs. If your point is he wouldn't produce as much if he only played against playoff teams all year, then you would be talking about every player in the NFL.

yes, because they have decided to spend a whole lot more money and high draft picks on offense and a lot less money and high draft picks on defense
What does that have to do with you saying we don't need WRs in 2012 because we didn't need them in 2006? You are contradicting yourself.

you mean they refused to negotiate with him so he wanted to leave
No. I mean what I said. Are you implying he was worth what Seattle paid him? Are you also trying to compare Deion Branch to Wes Welker?

I disagree......outside of brady, the pats have never paid a premium for continuity.
Moss
Light
Mankins
Koppen
Antowain Smith
Dillon
Seymour
Wilfork
Warren
Bruschi
McGinest
Mayo
Harrison
etc
etc
etc

only if you want to remain a strictly offense-oriented team
What?
Your argument is that you should have no WRs if you don't want to be an offense-oriented team?
Are you suggesting we play next year with 85, Edelman and Underwood at WR so we can say we aren't an offensive team?
Who is more 'must have' than Welker on this team?
 
The biggest problem is that the pats won't want to give long term deals with Gronk and Hernandez big pay day coming.

I could see them signing a FA WR for a 1-2 year deal, but how many would want that.

That is totally not how the Patriots operate. The aren't going to not spend money in 2012 because of contract to negotiate in 2014. They are the model of the league at managing their cap to be in relatively similar shape year to year.
There is room every year for a big contract to keep a player like Gronk. Hernandez is a nice player, but BB isn't going to base every decision on a fear of not being able to overpay him when the time comes.
 
That is totally not how the Patriots operate. The aren't going to not spend money in 2012 because of contract to negotiate in 2014. They are the model of the league at managing their cap to be in relatively similar shape year to year.
There is room every year for a big contract to keep a player like Gronk. Hernandez is a nice player, but BB isn't going to base every decision on a fear of not being able to overpay him when the time comes.

I think this is a great point, and it seems to be forgotten by many here. You are absolutely right. They aren't going to base any decisions off of who is 'potentially' going to be a free agent 2 years down the line. We see key free agents come and go every single year, 2014 will be no different in the eyes of the front office.

They will start to worry about 2014 when the league yr approaches...in 2014.

Coincidentally (and much of a positive for us) the new TV money kicks in which will boost the cap considerably for that yr anyway.
 
I look forward to when AndyJohnson starts a thread in a few months about how Welker is overrated

He seems to flip flop on his opinions often
 
I look forward to when AndyJohnson starts a thread in a few months about how Welker is overrated

He seems to flip flop on his opinions often

Well that couldn't be any further from the truth. Would you like to give some examples?
 
For all intensive purposes, it a whole nother matter, and they're are many things their that there mispelling too.

irregardless, its there problem if they could care less about misspeling wurds and using uncorrect grammer
 
The horse is dead.
 
Sure you did. You said this:

Andy, I'm over 6ft tall, does this mean I'm claiming that I'm the only person over 6ft tall?

The Patriots have struggled against good defenses. A very good defense, by default, means they make it difficult on the offense, but much of this is also a matchup issue, how well can one adapt when the opposition takes away what you do best?

If the passing game is going to be the focal point of the offense, and Welker be the focal point of your passing team, how are you not making yourself one dimensional? Let's take your argument regarding the salary cap: if there's too much going to one player there's less to go around to the others. Why wouldnt that be true with how you construct your offense?

What? If we threw more to lesser players we would be better? Come on.
The point is that the offense played well enough to ice that game if that routine catch was made

I can use that same argument with the Giants: if they made a certain play in the game they might have gained a big advantage tipping the scales even more in their favor. Also, if we ran more perhaps Brady wouldnt have been injured when sacked by Tuck, maybe then the pass to Welker is dead on and he makes the catch. We can go on and on playing what ifs, the fact is that they didnt get the job done, I think the smart thing to do is ask how the team can best improve rather than to just keep things the same.

The offense is the or close to the best, and your comment was
If there are changes then perhaps it would be more productive for Welker not to be the focal point.
Perhaps doing something different would be better than the or close to the best, is a classic example of change for change sake.

Yet again, how well can the team switch gears when the defense focuses on Welker? It's fine to have Welker as a focal point but it's not fine to become dependent on it, especially when doing so significantly weakens other aspects of your team. One needs to be able to win more then one way.

I don't think you want to weaken the passing game on purpose, but what you want will have that result. Welker had the 19th most receiving yards of any WR single season in history. The Patriots had the second highest passing totals in NGL history. You want to take the most successful part of the team and make wholesale changes. Thats not sound thinking.

- I thought yards were a bad measurement to assess the defense, that points are what mattered, isn't that the argument you made when defending the defense?

- I think post-season wins are a better measurement of a teams ability, we used to laugh at the Colts for being regular season scoring machines but post-season jokes, is that not what the Pats have become? A more diversified passing game, in additional to the running game, will not be change for it's own sake but changes that result in a stronger and more resilient offense.
 
Vjax highly unlikely to get tagged

A.J. Smith: Vincent Jackson is “highly unlikely” to get the tag | ProFootballTalk

Sorry if there is already a thread about it, but he is one of the best FA WR right now. The only downside is that if he does anything stupid he will be banned for 1 year, but he hasn't done anything stupid since then. He got the skills that we need for a WR, and since we don't have a good history drafting WRs and i woldn't want to get Lloyd do his age (might be one of the few) i think we should considerate getting right now for 3 years, but being a little of topic i still prefer to pay welker as priority right now
 
Re: Vjax highly unlikely to get tagged

Get it done Kraft. Maybe VJax can teach McCourty how to cover big recievers while he's here too. Two birds with one stone.
 
Andy, I'm over 6ft tall, does this mean I'm claiming that I'm the only person over 6ft tall?
Thats not what your argument is.
Your argument is more like, you struggle to get through 4 foot doorways.

The Patriots have struggled against good defenses.
No more than the typical amount all teams struggle vs good defenses compared to what they do against bad. Its a phony argument. You are arguing, it would seem, that they struggle DISPROPORTIONATELY vs good defense, so they need to fix the part of the offense that should destroy good defenses. Its just a weak argument.

A very good defense, by default, means they make it difficult on the offense, but much of this is also a matchup issue, how well can one adapt when the opposition takes away what you do best?
Thats just my point, it isn't a matchup issue, because the Patriots do not disproportionately struggle against good defenses.

If the passing game is going to be the focal point of the offense, and Welker be the focal point of your passing team, how are you not making yourself one dimensional?
Your are confusing best dimension with only dimension.
By your argument every team has a focal point therefore every team is one dimensional.


Let's take your argument regarding the salary cap: if there's too much going to one player there's less to go around to the others. Why wouldnt that be true with how you construct your offense?
It is true, but where does my philosophy toward the salary cap say you shouldn't have highly paid players? I am saying highly paid players are signed at the expense of other areas. That doesn't mean never sign highly paid players, it means you have to get those right. Keeping the guy who has been critical, along with Brady, to having a dynamic offense that is among the few very best in the NFL year in and year out, is an example of getting that right.

I can use that same argument with the Giants: if they made a certain play in the game they might have gained a big advantage tipping the scales even more in their favor. Also, if we ran more perhaps Brady wouldnt have been injured when sacked by Tuck, maybe then the pass to Welker is dead on and he makes the catch. We can go on and on playing what ifs, the fact is that they didnt get the job done, I think the smart thing to do is ask how the team can best improve rather than to just keep things the same.
There is a difference between change and improvement.
We know where the team stands. It is good enough to compete to win a SB and came a play short of doing so. (That isn't a bunch of whatifs its one play that decides the game) I guess you think you can tear it down and rebuild it better with your ideas. I am not confident that is the case. The offense works as it is. Make the adjustments you normally do, but taking the risk of reinventing an offense is a good idea for a bad offense, and not such a good one for a very good offense.



Yet again, how well can the team switch gears when the defense focuses on Welker? It's fine to have Welker as a focal point but it's not fine to become dependent on it, especially when doing so significantly weakens other aspects of your team. One needs to be able to win more then one way.
We have won a hell of a lot of games, scored a ton of points and had a great offense with Welker here. We have many more than ways than one.
How would getting rid of a very good player give you more ways to win?
Again, you are confusing best dimension with only dimension.



- I thought yards were a bad measurement to assess the defense, that points are what mattered, isn't that the argument you made when defending the defense?
When did I DEFEND the defense. And when did I, or anyone with a clue, say only points matter and yards are totally irrelevant?
Yards arent the best way to gauge a defense does not mean yards are not relevant.
However, the Patriots scored a ton of points too.

- I think post-season wins are a better measurement of a teams ability, we used to laugh at the Colts for being regular season scoring machines but post-season jokes, is that not what the Pats have become?
No it is not.

[/quote] A more diversified passing game, in additional to the running game, will not be change for it's own sake but changes that result in a stronger and more resilient offense.[/QUOTE]

Saying we have among the best passing offenses in the NFL and the best way to make the team better is to get rid of all the WRs and bring in all new ones, is endorsing change for the sake of change. I'm sorry you want to call it something else, but thats what it is.
 
Re: Vjax highly unlikely to get tagged

Vjax, higly unlikely to get tagged, and highly like to get signed by the Patriots.
 
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