Oliver's agent...

[patpatriot]

Thanks for the explanation but I couldn't get my head around all those options. The gist of it is that if they think this guy is going to be good, they can bid their own 2nd rounder because the Oakland 3rd round is likely to be only a few picks away?

 

[kriskanos]

I think your logic is illogical...Im gonna have to go with Reiss on this one.

 

[dryheat44]

I think your logic is illogical...Im gonna have to go with Reiss on this one.

Why? Read Brandt's original column and try to see where he says what Mike is saying he says. Mike's making a huge leap.

Again, if the system works the way Mike says so, there would be absolutely NO reason for them to go about setting up a three-tiered system. They would simply use the last draft order, and that way teams that traded for other teams' picks would have bettered their position.

That didn't happen. The NFL went out of their way to create a different system for the sole purpose of the supplemental draft that would help bad teams and, presumably, not allow their spot in the lottery to be transferred.

The only way Mike's interpretation makes sense is that if among each group, the NFL slots teams in a random order. This is possible, although I think me or someone else would have heard about this by now. A coin flip to determine who gets the 5th and 6th picks of the draft is big news. I would imagine a lottery system would be well-known.

 

[dryheat44]

Just to clarify, here's what I believe the 3rd round priority list looks like, after seeing what other picks have changed hands:

1. Detroit
2. Cleveland
3. Tampa
4. Arizona
5. Washington
6. Minnesota
7. Houston
8. Miami
9. Minnesota (Denver's pick)
10. Atlanta
11. San Francisco
12. Buffalo
13. St. Louis
14. Carolina
15. Pittsburgh
17. Green Bay
17. Jacksonville
18. Cincinnati
19. Tennessee
20. Buffalo (Baltimore's Pick)
21. New England (Oakland's Pick)
22. New York Giants
23. Dallas
24. Kansas City
25. Seattle
26. New York Jets
27. Philadelphia
28. New Orleans
29. New England
30. Chicago (San Diego's Pick)
31. Chicago
32. Indianapolis

 

[kriskanos]

Breer of the Herald reporting Patriots not present at Olivers workout...23 teams including the Bills were.This does not mean we cant work him out our selves.Might just be a smokescreen.

 

[dryheat44]

Breer of the Herald reporting Patriots not present at Olivers workout...23 teams including the Bills were.This does not mean we cant work him out our selves.Might just be a smokescreen.

I'd like to know if reporters, or even the other personnel people, know exactly who's there. I'd like to imagine a scenario where Belichick sends a lesser-known scout dressed up as a landscaper, electrician or newspaper photographer to secretly watch some workouts.

 

[Rob0729]

Just to clarify, here's what I believe the 3rd round priority list looks like, after seeing what other picks have changed hands:

1. Detroit
2. Cleveland
3. Tampa
4. Arizona
5. Washington
6. Minnesota
7. Houston
8. Miami
9. Minnesota (Denver's pick)
10. Atlanta
11. San Francisco
12. Buffalo
13. St. Louis
14. Carolina
15. Pittsburgh
17. Green Bay
17. Jacksonville
18. Cincinnati
19. Tennessee
20. Buffalo (Baltimore's Pick)
21. New England (Oakland's Pick)
22. New York Giants
23. Dallas
24. Kansas City
25. Seattle
26. New York Jets
27. Philadelphia
28. New Orleans
29. New England
30. Chicago (San Diego's Pick)
31. Chicago
32. Indianapolis

Why would the Pats pick they acquired from Oakland be so low? It was my understanding that we have the first pick in the third round in the supplimental draft. Oakland had the worst record in the NFL last year and the first pick in every round in the draft (which is passed onto the supplimental draft).

 

[dryheat44]

Why would the Pats pick they acquired from Oakland be so low? It was my understanding that we have the first pick in the third round in the supplimental draft. Oakland had the worst record in the NFL last year and the first pick in every round in the draft (which is passed onto the supplimental draft).

Once more.....

The NFL does not go by inverse draft order, like they do in the regular amateur draft in April. They have instituted a unique system that puts all the 0-6-win teams in tier 1, the other non-playoff teams in tier 2, and the playoff teams in tier 3. They did this for a reason. If they were going to allow good teams to more up in the selection order by virtue of trading picks with bad teams, there would be no reason to establish this three-tiered system, because, with rare exception (Denver and Giants would be switched this year) the effect would be exactly the same as if they simply went in the usual draft order.

My guess, and what makes the most sense, is that the Raiders pick will give the Patriots the first pick of tier 3.

Or, another way to say it, is that the priority order is sorted first by team, and then within that sort, ordered by pick number based on the 2007 amateur draft.

Edit: I suppose it is possible that I am wrong. As I think about it, sometimes bad teams win bad divisions and advance to the playoffs, and maybe this convoluted system was designed so that a hypothetical 8-8 division winner, who would normally draft in the 14-18 range, would be penalized by being knocked back to tier 3. However, since the regular draft doesn't work that way, but rather awards draft selection on the strength of record outside the two Super Bowl teams, I doubt that this is why the three-tiered system was created.

 

[kriskanos]

I agree Rob I think my mans thinking is seriously flawed.The way I see it we get one of the top if not the top pick in the third round.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why? Read Brandt's original column and try to see where he says what Mike is saying he says. Mike's making a huge leap.

Again, if the system works the way Mike says so, there would be absolutely NO reason for them to go about setting up a three-tiered system. They would simply use the last draft order, and that way teams that traded for other teams' picks would have bettered their position.

That didn't happen. The NFL went out of their way to create a different system for the sole purpose of the supplemental draft that would help bad teams and, presumably, not allow their spot in the lottery to be transferred.

The only way Mike's interpretation makes sense is that if among each group, the NFL slots teams in a random order. This is possible, although I think me or someone else would have heard about this by now. A coin flip to determine who gets the 5th and 6th picks of the draft is big news. I would imagine a lottery system would be well-known.

Dry -
The reason that the league has the 3 tiered system is because the regular draft order is NOT the same in each round. When there are more than 2 teams with the same record (who didn't participate in the play-offs), those teams rotate the pick order in each round.

So the supplemental draft order is done STRICTLY based on record, NOT on play-off finish. There are 16 teams that end up in the play-offs. Only 11 are in the bottom tier. The other 5 play-off teams are in the middle tier.

Also, from my understanding, what Reiss said was correct. All the rounds are done on a closed bidding system. As such, no team knows what another team is doing. As such, the Raiders traded their 3rd round rights to the Pats, by trading the Pats their 3rd round pick. Technically, the 49ers also traded the Pats their 1st round rights, though I doubt that Oliver is going to get 1st round consideration. And he was pegged as 1st round talent for the 2008 draft.

 

[BelichickFan]

Once more.....

The NFL does not go by inverse draft order, like they do in the regular amateur draft in April. They have instituted a unique system that puts all the 0-6-win teams in tier 1, the other non-playoff teams in tier 2, and the playoff teams in tier 3. They did this for a reason. If they were going to allow good teams to more up in the selection order by virtue of trading picks with bad teams, there would be no reason to establish this three-tiered system, because, with rare exception (Denver and Giants would be switched this year) the effect would be exactly the same as if they simply went in the usual draft order.

My guess, and what makes the most sense, is that the Raiders pick will give the Patriots the first pick of tier 3.

Or, another way to say it, is that the priority order is sorted first by team, and then within that sort, ordered by pick number based on the 2007 amateur draft.

I have no idea on this but I think you're outthinking yourself.

I think the reason for the tiers is just to keep the uncertainty of the exact order so that teams aren't trading picks to move up. Now, I don't know why that would be a problem but the NFL has a lot of weird rules. For whatever reason I think it's so that a team couldn't trade us, say, a 6th round pick in 2008 to flip flop supplemental round 3 picks knowing we (through the Raiders) have the top pick in the round.

 

[kriskanos]

Once more.....

The NFL does not go by inverse draft order, like they do in the regular amateur draft in April. They have instituted a unique system that puts all the 0-6-win teams in tier 1, the other non-playoff teams in tier 2, and the playoff teams in tier 3. They did this for a reason. If they were going to allow good teams to more up in the selection order by virtue of trading picks with bad teams, there would be no reason to establish this three-tiered system, because, with rare exception (Denver and Giants would be switched this year) the effect would be exactly the same as if they simply went in the usual draft order.

My guess, and what makes the most sense, is that the Raiders pick will give the Patriots the first pick of tier 3.

Or, another way to say it, is that the priority order is sorted first by team, and then within that sort, ordered by pick number based on the 2007 amateur draft.

OK so Oakland is in the third tier...how?I dont recall them making the playoffs.Please explain reeeeaaaallllyyyy slow How you think they are in the third tier.

 

[BelichickFan]

OK so Oakland is in the third tier...how?I dont recall them making the playoffs.Please explain reeeeaaaallllyyyy slow How you think they are in the third tier.

He's saying that although Oakland is in the first tier, that pick ends up in the thrid tier because a third tier team isn't allowed into a higher tier. I think he's wrong, though.

 

[dryheat44]

Dry -
The reason that the league has the 3 tiered system is because the regular draft order is NOT the same in each round. When there are more than 2 teams with the same record (who didn't participate in the play-offs), those teams rotate the pick order in each round.

Yes, I understand. But I think the Supplemental draft just uses the first-round order to establish the priority order. In other words, a third round bid in the 2007 supplemental draft follows the default order of the first round of the 2007 draft.

So the supplemental draft order is done STRICTLY based on record, NOT on play-off finish. There are 16 teams that end up in the play-offs. Only 11 are in the bottom tier. The other 5 play-off teams are in the middle tier.

I think 12 teams make the playoffs. 11 of which have the last 11 picks of the draft (in 2007) Denver drafted after the Giants. But since the NFL established the regular draft order by record without regard to playoff qualification (SB finalists aside), why would they do it for a Supplemental draft where usually 0-2 players are awarded? I don't think that's the reason. I think your post crossed my editing of my last one.

Also, from my understanding, what Reiss said was correct. All the rounds are done on a closed bidding system. As such, no team knows what another team is doing. As such, the Raiders traded their 3rd round rights to the Pats, by trading the Pats their 3rd round pick. Technically, the 49ers also traded the Pats their 1st round rights, though I doubt that Oliver is going to get 1st round consideration. And he was pegged as 1st round talent for the 2008 draft.

I understand this, but nothing here suggests Reiss is correct, or that I am correct. Again, if this was the case, why wouldn't the NFL simply use the first round of the 2007 draft order, while turning over the traded pick slot to the team who now owns it? I don't see the point.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

i don't see the agent thing as being an issue.

the problem with branch was NE demanding an extra year on his rookie deal. that has since been taken care of, and i believe the longest deal he could sign would be 4 years.

 

[dryheat44]

For whatever reason I think it's so that a team couldn't trade us, say, a 6th round pick in 2008 to flip flop supplemental round 3 picks knowing we (through the Raiders) have the top pick in the round.

Exactly. This is what I'm saying. The NFL has gone through some hoops to make a supplemental draft order that differs from the regular draft order, and the only reason I can think of is so that the effect of trades are greatly lessened...i.e. you can better your position within your tier, but not jump across tiers.

 

[DaBruinz]

Dry -
Here are some articles from Brandt.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/6452668 - posted in 2003 prior to that year's supplemental draft.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9447397 - posted June 22nd, 2006.


So, what has happened, from what I can see, is that the NFL has CHANGED the way the supplemental draft is run.

However, I see nothing to imply what you say regarding the Pats being 20th in the 3rd round. It would be an interesting situation to email Gil Brandt about to see if he could provide an answer.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yes, I understand. But I think the Supplemental draft just uses the first-round order to establish the priority order. In other words, a third round bid in the 2007 supplemental draft follows the default order of the first round of the 2007 draft.



I think 12 teams make the playoffs. 11 of which have the last 11 picks of the draft (in 2007) Denver drafted after the Giants. But since the NFL established the regular draft order by record without regard to playoff qualification (SB finalists aside), why would they do it for a Supplemental draft where usually 0-2 players are awarded? I don't think that's the reason. I think your post crossed my editing of my last one.



I understand this, but nothing here suggests Reiss is correct, or that I am correct. Again, if this was the case, why wouldn't the NFL simply use the first round of the 2007 draft order, while turning over the traded pick slot to the team who now owns it? I don't see the point.

The NFL doesn't simply use the 1st round draft order for the exact reason I gave you....

And, I do stand corrected on the 12 teams making the play-offs... My fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking.

 

[dryheat44]

Dry -
So, what has happened, from what I can see, is that the NFL has CHANGED the way the supplemental draft is run.

However, I see nothing to imply what you say regarding the Pats being 20th in the 3rd round. It would be an interesting situation to email Gil Brandt about to see if he could provide an answer.

I think so too, and I think they've changed it recently. I'm trying to come up with a viable reason WHY they've changed it, and the only scenario I can come up with is the one I've described. It's possible I'm just missing something.

Times like this I curse the NFL for not having their official rulebook online.

 

[dryheat44]

The NFL doesn't simply use the 1st round draft order for the exact reason I gave you....
.

Okay, but then how do suppose they break ties within the tiers if say Tampa Bay and Cleveland both put a third round claim in?