Ochocinco: Gaining confidence

[shmessy]

Spare me with the out of my element stuff here. COREY DILLON is old and has never been a superb route runner. He's been a great athlete that freelances around the field and could out perform DB's for years because he had great athleticism. He doesn't have the same speed or the same play making burst he once had. He developed a lot of bad habits over the years and was known as a "quitter" in Cinci and even said that himself by his own admission. Hell, the guy took a swing at his coach and challenged his OC even. Look at his history and you'll see that he has had problems with every coach going back to HS and college as well. He is not a Patriot type of player.......

I fixed your post for you by subbing in ONE name.

It's called "DEPTH". Right now, I'm sure YOUR team wishes it had that at a certain position.

In the meantime, you keep going back to Branch. If you've ever followed the Pats for more than two minutes, you'd know the Pats are NOT trying to replace Branch with Ochocinco this year.

You may as well complain that Ochocinco is not as good a field goal kicker as Gostkowski.

 

[shmessy]

Fair enough, but how long is that going to last? A guy who has a history that he does for like the last 12 years doesn't just change completely. I can't take 9 or 10 weeks of a season of good behavior and expect that it will last forever when his history says otherwise.



I watched him pretty closely last season and even the season before that when he played pretty well. Even in that season you could tell that he lost some of his explosiveness and elusiveness. You're right that Brady keeps saying positive things and that's a good sign and all, but we should have seen more by now. If he is going to stay as a 5th WR, then it's pretty obvious that he wasn't worth rolling the dice on.




Gaffney didn't have anywhere near the expectations that Chad has had coming in here this season. Gaffney was just an underachiever that came from the Texans when he got to NE that had a lot to prove just to stay in the league at the time.

I hope that I'll be proven wrong here and that he can get going. I just don't think he is anywhere near the guy that he once was physically.

The problem is that you are judgiing him as 2005 Chad Johnson.

We understand that that guy doesn't exist. That never was the expectation here.

The Patriots have enviable depth for catching the ball. Right now Ochocinco is standing in Taylor Price's way. If he falters, Price will get called upon - - something many here were excited about in the pre-season.

It's called depth.....and it is a luxury.

Good luck with Matt Leinart this weekend.

 

[Texxx]

I fixed your post for you by subbing in ONE name.

It's called "DEPTH". Right now, I'm sure YOUR team wishes it had that at a certain position.

YOur ignorance is astounding. If there was no depth on the Texans they'd be done a long time ago. Did you forget that Foster had been out for the first few games of the season?? Tate had to fill in and has one of the best YPC averages in the league right now. Did you forget that Mario Williams is out for the year?? Barwin, Watt, and Reed are filling in and doing a great job. Two of those guys are rookies for your information. Did you forget that Andre Johnson has been out for like 6 games?? They've won 4 in a row and their passing game has still been pretty good with Jones, Walter, and most importantly Daniels at TE. Seriously, at least have some NFL awareness before making a complete fool of yourself to make a statement like that because the Texans are actually 7-3 despite all of that even with Gary Kubiak as their HC. And Leinart isn't a bad back up to have at all. I'd call that depth at the QB position. There are only like two maybe 3 teams that could have a for sure starter at the back up position. Every other team in the league pretty much has a can at their #2 QB spot.

In the meantime, you keep going back to Branch. If you've ever followed the Pats for more than two minutes, you'd know the Pats are NOT trying to replace Branch with Ochocinco this year.

Been a Patriots fan for years, so I don't need to hear about how Ocho and Branch are on the depth chart from some guy who just wrote what you did above. Branch was mentioned earlier in the thread so I addressed him and spoke highly of his play for what you could expect out of him and how he's more productive than CJ is. He's more dependable and more reliable as well. I also talked about other options the Pats had in the off season at WR other than Ocho that could have been better acquisitions which can't even remotely be argued when you consider the fact that Chad JOhnson has only 200 yards on the season through 10 weeks of the year. If you're going to act like he was brought over to the Patriots to be a 5th string WR and to produce as little as he is, I'd question whether you have any idea on what happens with this franchise at all.




[/QUOTE]

 

[shmessy]

......... If you're going to act like he was brought over to the Patriots to be a 5th string WR and to produce as little as he is, I'd question whether you have any idea on what happens with this franchise at all.

If you could READ, you'd see that I wrote all along that he was brought in here to be the 3rd or 4th string WR (depending on whether he could place ahead of Taylor Price, which he has, so far).

But your ignorance of Boston sports is already well established here given your Bird was greater than Russell argument.

Good luck with Matt Leinart the rest of the season.

 

[Texxx]

The problem is that you are judgiing him as 2005 Chad Johnson.

We understand that that guy doesn't exist. That never was the expectation here.

The Patriots have enviable depth for catching the ball. Right now Ochocinco is standing in Taylor Price's way. If he falters, Price will get called upon - - something many here were excited about in the pre-season.



It's called depth.....and it is a luxury.

The Patriots don't really have much depth at WR at all. What they have is a QB who is one of the best of all time who makes players look a lot better and over achieve. Brady has had a trio of WR's he has done that with since he has started. If you're going to try and tell me that this trio of WR's would be a great tandem with most of the other QB's around the league, man that's a good laugh. Welker would be and that's about it. Branch stunk it up in Seattle, and the minute he came back to NE he was producing and making pretty good plays again. These other guys the Pats have would be average on other teams at best. Brady and this offense makes them look a lot better. You're way off dude.

Good luck with Matt Leinart this weekend.

Once again, you're not even aware of things. The Texans have a bye this weekend and aren't playing. Leinart is in Cali right now and he'll be preparing for next weekend at the end of this week, and I'm pretty confident in Leinart for a backup.

 

[Texxx]

If you could READ, you'd see that I wrote all along that he was brought in here to be the 3rd or 4th string WR (depending on whether he could place ahead of Taylor Price, which he has, so far).

But your ignorance of Boston sports is already well established here given your Bird was greater than Russell argument.

Good luck with Matt Leinart the rest of the season.

Coming from a guy who is still trying to rationalize CJ being brought to the Pats?? Lol! And now we're at the point of whether or not he could replace Taylor Price?? Really??

Bird was the man. So was Russell. Quite frankly I don't really care who was the better Boston hero. Not a fan of the Celtics. Just a fan of the Patriots and that's who I care about in this discussion, but you're more like a homer fan boy it seems like that wouldn't dare to criticize any move made by the organization. I love BB and all, but everything he does personal wise isn't a flawless move all of the time. He had better options in the off season to upgrade at WR than Ocho. Accept it.

 

[shmessy]

Bird was the man. So was Russell. Quite frankly I don't really care who was the better Boston hero. Not a fan of the Celtics. Just a fan of the Patriots and that's who I care about in this discussion, but you're more like a homer fan boy it seems like that wouldn't dare to criticize any move made by the organization. I love BB and all, but everything he does personal wise isn't a flawless move all of the time. He had better options in the off season to upgrade at WR than Ocho. Accept it.

You're writing from ignorance.

Just like your Bird > Russell argument that you "don't care about" but have written about in that thread.

No one here has complained more about BB's personnel decisions in the secondary this year than me. So you can take your "fanboy" characterization and eat it for lunch.

You don't know squat about why the Pats brought in Ocho. It just bugs you that he isn't the Chad Johnson superstar that you drafted for your fantasy league team. No one here had any dreams about him supplanting Welker or Branch. That's for fantasy football fanboys.

 

[Texxx]

You're writing from ignorance.

Just like your Bird > Russell argument that you "don't care about" but have written about in that thread.

No one here has complained more about BB's personnel decisions in the secondary this year than me. So you can take your "fanboy" characterization and eat it for lunch.

You don't know squat about why the Pats brought in Ocho. it just bugs you that he isn't the Chad Johnson superstar that you drafted for your fantasy league team. No one here had any dreams about him supplanting Welker or Branch. that's for fantasy football fanboys.

I don't even play FF so stop with these lame conclusions of yours because after like 4 posts you've yet to make a sound argument as to why bringing Ocho here wasn't a mistake. You're grasping at straws and having to resort back to some Bird and Russell comparison to deflect from the issue at hand and having to make things up now. WHat it sounds like is that you bought in to the Ocho hype before the season when he was brought here, and you're not willing to admit that it hasn't worked out. I hated the move from the jump, because there were a trio of better options than him at the time that made more sense that I've already mentioned.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't even play FF so stop with these lame conclusions of yours because after like 4 posts you've yet to make a sound argument as to why bringing Ocho here wasn't a mistake. You're grasping at straws and having to resort back to some Bird and Russell comparison to deflect from the issue at hand and having to make things up now. WHat it sounds like is that you bought in to the Ocho hype before the season when he was brought here, and you're not willing to admit that it hasn't worked out. I hated the move from the jump, because there were a trio of better options than him at the time that made more sense that I've already mentioned.

1.) What was the trio of better options?

2.) How is it possible to rate the Johnson signing already, given the circumstances?

 

[Texxx]

Steve Smith was a much better option when he was on the trading block and wanted out of Carolina really bad. He'd be a wrecking man in this offense in short yardage and down the field.

Breaston would have been a nice fit as a deep threat that the Pats needed, and although he hasn't looked great in KC, I think he'd look a lot better with TB throwing him the ball the same way a lot of guys have over the years.

How many WR's on the Pats have a skill set like Burress?? I think he'd be a real nice threat here in the RZ and in the middle of the field. He'd easily be better than what CJ has been.

I'd have taken James Jones over CJ as well. Much younger and would probably work well with Tom.

Malcom Floyd wouldn't have been to bad either. There was also Vincent Jackson and Sydney Rice, but I won't kid myself and act like they would have landed here, but that's quite a few guys that I mentioned. We all know that Tom Brady makes guys look a lot better and they typically over achieve in NE. THe only guy that I can think of who hasn't really is Chad Johnson who this thread is about.

 

[Deus Irae]

Steve Smith was a much better option when he was on the trading block and wanted out of Carolina really bad. He'd be a wrecking man in this offense in short yardage and down the field.

Smith sucker punches his own teammates. I could understand some interest there, but to call him a much better option is to ignore the significant issues he brings to the table.

Breaston would have been a nice fit as a deep threat that the Pats needed, and although he hasn't looked great in KC, I think he'd look a lot better with TB throwing him the ball the same way a lot of guys have over the years.

Yes, he'd showed some legit skills, but he'd also struggled without Boldin there in Arizona. There was a real question as to whether or not he could cut it as a true outside guy.

How many WR's on the Pats have a skill set like Burress?? I think he'd be a real nice threat here in the RZ and in the middle of the field. He'd easily be better than what CJ has been.

Burress was coming back from prison and has always been a problem for his coaches. He was not a better option.

I'd have taken James Jones over CJ as well. Much younger and would probably work well with Tom.

Your first valid example, although his problems with dropping the ball would have been an issue.

Malcom Floyd wouldn't have been to bad either. There was also Vincent Jackson and Sydney Rice, but I won't kid myself and act like they would have landed here, but that's quite a few guys that I mentioned. We all know that Tom Brady makes guys look a lot better and they typically over achieve in NE. THe only guy that I can think of who hasn't really is Chad Johnson who this thread is about.

Floyd has never had a 50 catch season, has a problem playing full seasons, and is 30 years old himself. I didn't hate him, but I can't see crying about him. Rice was gone right away, although I liked the idea of the team getting him, and Jackson was franchised.

I can see your point on some of these players, and I was in favor of the team going after Rice, but there's not really anyone on the list who

a.) was a viable option for the Patriots under the then-current circumstances

and

b.) is producing significantly more in a similar role and/or would clearly have gotten more playing time in the Patriots lineup.

 

[85Ocho85]

It's always funny when people outright lie about Ocho and his history. Revisionist are a joke, but very entertaining and easily made a fool.

 

[Texxx]

Smith sucker punches his own teammates. I could understand some interest there, but to call him a much better option is to ignore the significant issues he brings to the table.

That was years ago and yes it was bad, but it's not like he has ever been some multiple season cancer there. Hell, he carried that passing game for years and made Delhomme look a lot better than he was. He's playing great this year with a rookie, and Smith on the Pats offense would be lightening in a bottle. He can get in the middle, he can stretch the field, and he's better than almost any WR after the catch. For a small guy, he'll go up and grab balls with the best of them as well. He's waaaaayyy better than Ocho at this stage of their careers and it's not even close.

Yes, he'd showed some legit skills, but he'd also struggled without Boldin there in Arizona. There was a real question as to whether or not he could cut it as a true outside guy.

The Pats already had their inside guys. They needed someone to stretch the field and that's what they were hoping that Price could do. Breaston would do well in NE in my opinion. You have to remember that players have historically played a lot better with Brady. You mentioned Gaffney earlier or someone else did and he looked ten times better in NE than he did in Houston.

Burress was coming back from prison and has always been a problem for his coaches. He was not a better option.

Yes, and after all of that I trusted the guy to come back this season and play his heart out. Prison can do a lot for a guy like that and really give him that wake up call. It certainly did for Vick and he changed his attitude a lot. Burress seems to as well, and I don't see how you could deny this now after he has played pretty damn well this season. The only question with him was whether or not if he could play at the same level he was before since he had aged and been away from the sport, but I think he is playing alright this season. He's much better than Chad Johnson any day of the week, that's for sure and a much better RZ target. The Pats already have guys like Welker and Woodhead who use their quickness and speed to get around defenders. Burress could have been that physical presence similar to the TE's on this team.

Your first valid example, although his problems with dropping the ball would have been an issue.

I think he would have been just fine.

Floyd has never had a 50 catch season, has a problem playing full seasons, and is 30 years old himself. I didn't hate him, but I can't see crying about him. Rice was gone right away, although I liked the idea of the team getting him, and Jackson was franchised.

He has had his injury issues, but you can't expect that going into the next season. He wouldn't have costed a lot of money, and the guy has some damn good hands.

I can see your point on some of these players, and I was in favor of the team going after Rice, but there's not really anyone on the list who

The Pats simply weren't going to pay for Rice or for Jackson so I didn't even bother mentioning them. That just wasn't going to happen.

b.) is producing significantly more in a similar role and/or would clearly have gotten more playing time in the Patriots lineup.

What??? Chad Johnson has 200 yards and 11 catches for heaven's sake. Every player on this list could have easily been more effective than Chad this season here. Some things you stated may be debatable but this last point is simply not one of them.

 

[Texxx]

It's always funny when people outright lie about Ocho and his history. Revisionist are a joke, but very entertaining and easily made a fool.

Coming from a guy who names himself after the player in question? Yeah, you can really be expected to be objective here.

How about pointing this stuff out that you're claiming.

 

[Deus Irae]

That was years ago and yes it was bad, but it's not like he has ever been some multiple season cancer there. Hell, he carried that passing game for years and made Delhomme look a lot better than he was. He's playing great this year with a rookie, and Smith on the Pats offense would be lightening in a bottle. He can get in the middle, he can stretch the field, and he's better than almost any WR after the catch. For a small guy, he'll go up and grab balls with the best of them as well. He's waaaaayyy better than Ocho at this stage of their careers and it's not even close.

Smith has had a lot more than just one incident. I'm not denying his talent.

The Pats already had their inside guys. They needed someone to stretch the field and that's what they were hoping that Price could do. Breaston would do well in NE in my opinion. You have to remember that players have historically played a lot better with Brady. You mentioned Gaffney earlier or someone else did and he looked ten times better in NE than he did in Houston.

Breaston is not a field stretcher. He's a short-middle receiver. Again, he had issues as the #2 guy in Arizona. Looking at him now, he's playing quite well, but he's heading back to the WR3/slot once Baldwin settles in. That isn't an area the Patriots needed to address.

Yes, and after all of that I trusted the guy to come back this season and play his heart out. Prison can do a lot for a guy like that and really give him that wake up call. It certainly did for Vick and he changed his attitude a lot. Burress seems to as well, and I don't see how you could deny this now after he has played pretty damn well this season. The only question with him was whether or not if he could play at the same level he was before since he had aged and been away from the sport, but I think he is playing alright this season. He's much better than Chad Johnson any day of the week, that's for sure and a much better RZ target. The Pats already have guys like Welker and Woodhead who use their quickness and speed to get around defenders. Burress could have been that physical presence similar to the TE's on this team.

Burress is tall. That's it. As for him being better than Jackson, I'm not buying that, sorry.

He has had his injury issues, but you can't expect that going into the next season. He wouldn't have costed a lot of money, and the guy has some damn good hands.

Why can't you expect that? Of course you can expect that. And he's not that good.

The Pats simply weren't going to pay for Rice or for Jackson so I didn't even bother mentioning them. That just wasn't going to happen.

You mentioned them. That's why I included them in my response. I agree that they weren't going to happen.

What??? Chad Johnson has 200 yards and 11 catches for heaven's sake. Every player on this list could have easily been more effective than Chad this season here. Some things you stated may be debatable but this last point is simply not one of them.

You seem to have misread this part of my post.

 

[goheels22002]

Just some food for thought. Branch only has 57 yards in our 3 losses (19 yds a game) vs. 427 in our 6 wins (72 yards a game).

That is an outstanding statistic. Branch and Brady have tremendous chemistry and if Welker is going to attract the top DB the rest of the way, look for big numbers from Branch and a boatload of wins.

 

[ausbacker]

If you could READ, you'd see that I wrote all along that he was brought in here to be the 3rd or 4th string WR (depending on whether he could place ahead of Taylor Price, which he has, so far).

But your ignorance of Boston sports is already well established here given your Bird was greater than Russell argument.

Good luck with Matt Leinart the rest of the season.

The further this goes the brighter the shining shmessy. Don't say you weren't told earlier. The "clandestine" approach to trolling these days is spottable a mile away.

The kicker was telling someone who has followed a team all their life they are ignorant toward that team.

 

[Texxx]

Smith has had a lot more than just one incident. I'm not denying his talent.



Breaston is not a field stretcher. He's a short-middle receiver. Again, he had issues as the #2 guy in Arizona. Looking at him now, he's playing quite well, but he's heading back to the WR3/slot once Baldwin settles in. That isn't an area the Patriots needed to address.



Burress is tall. That's it. As for him being better than Jackson, I'm not buying that, sorry.




Why can't you expect that? Of course you can expect that. And he's not that good.



You mentioned them. That's why I included them in my response. I agree that they weren't going to happen.



You seem to have misread this part of my post.

So, with everything that has happened so far would you still call Chad Johnson a good signing in your eyes? We could debate these other guys all day long, but I don't see how anyone with a straight face could justify it at this point in time. If he goes off the wall for the rest of the year, then I'll be happy to tip my hat where it's do, but I just don't see it happening. For the record, I hope that I'm wrong. I do appreciate your perspective here though.

 

[RIpats88]

So, with everything that has happened so far would you still call Chad Johnson a good signing in your eyes? We could debate these other guys all day long, but I don't see how anyone with a straight face could justify it at this point in time. If he goes off the wall for the rest of the year, then I'll be happy to tip my hat where it's do, but I just don't see it happening. For the record, I hope that I'm wrong. I do appreciate your perspective here though.

I dont think you can fully say whether it was a good signing or not until the end of the season...for the first half, I would say no it wasnt. but theres been signs the last couple weeks that he has been improving.

we're complaining about a guy who had 65yards last game...if he can start to produce and be a part of the offense the rest of the year/into the playoffs I would say it was a good signing.

but, anyone expecting Randy Moss type numbers needs to take a step back..because hes more Gaffney than Moss for this team.

 

[Texxx]

I dont think you can fully say whether it was a good signing or not until the end of the season...for the first half, I would say no it wasnt. but theres been signs the last couple weeks that he has been improving.

we're complaining about a guy who had 65yards last game...if he can start to produce and be a part of the offense the rest of the year/into the playoffs I would say it was a good signing.

but, anyone expecting Randy Moss type numbers needs to take a step back..because hes more Gaffney than Moss for this team.

I don't recall ever stating anything close to expecting Randy Moss numbers, but he was brought in to be more than a Gaffney type of player. He may have been demoted down on expectations at this point, but lets not kid ourselves and act like he was brought in just to spell Gaffney.

As I've stated before, I'd like to see him play better. I didn't like the signing in the first place, but I hope that he can prove me wrong.