Player Signing New Pats OT Tyrone Wheatley Jr

[rochrist]

The same good OL, sure.

The same bad OL, nope, IMO.

Agree to disagree then. If one guy is consistently getting results and the other isn't, that tells you something.

 

[n6249c]

I think Strong wasn't making it through cutdowns so they felt ok to trade him. And a 6th isn't a ton to give up. Then you have two good options to compete for the interim (and maybe longer) RT and some better options for backup and swing tackle.

As for playing time, just from reading up since the trade, it feels like Wheatley was a longer project to get where he is now, but he's ready now. Lowe was ready earlier, but I don't know that he's the better of the two. But you let them compete with Sow and play whoever is best. It really feels like some low-cost investments to try to fix a problem that sprang up from injuries and an illness.

Agree. Just let them take some reps against Judon and Uche and the rest of our D and they’ll show what they’ve got pretty quickly.

 

[Bill Lee]

Agree to disagree then. If one guy is consistently getting results and the other isn't, that tells you something.

Yes, it's OK if we don't agree.

IMO the guy who can squeeze out a positive average behind a bad line is usually a guy with decent straight-ahead burst speed who can hit holes before they collapse but is not really shifty, and not usually a good pass catcher since he doesn't need that skill behind a bad OL.

 

[Ivan]

Havent a clue because there's too many variables and not enough data. How many years before we said "hey - that Scar is a helluva coach?" He also had some GREAT players to model for new OL - Pats HOF Armstrong for one. How much time did it take him to get Stephen Neal to steady, solid contributor (basically an entire year BTW)?

I do know it's not six weeks. I would GUESS it's the same timeline as a HC being evaluated for overall effectiveness because it eliminates a lot of variables: three years. Now can it be sooner? Sure - if the OL regresses all year (kind've like last years' offense under MP) there's probably something amiss with the coach.

I have said this before but it’s relevant here. Scar’s greatest ability wasn’t the ability to create HOF OL, it was his ability to get average OL to give solid disciplined OL play, and to get them all to play as a unit. If they play solid football, with few penalties, especially critical ones, then Klemm will have done a very good job with them.

 

[patfanken]

Lowe has actually played in four regular season NFL games.

I have been unable to find any evidence Wheatley has taken even a single snap in a regular season game.

the Pats probably had called multiple teams and got Wheatley first, then when they got a chance to get Lowe as well they went for the double dip. So I expect Lowe to be ahead of Wheatley.

I saw a post where it said that he had over 90 snaps this preseason. I can't vouch for it's authentication, but it looked real. I think it was somewhere early in this thread..

 

[patfanken]

I have said this before but it’s relevant here. Scar’s greatest ability wasn’t the ability to create HOF OL, it was his ability to get average OL to give solid disciplined OL play, and to get them all to play as a unit. If they play solid football, with few penalties, especially critical ones, then Klemm will have done a very good job with them.

Had 2 hours on the road today, so I caught some talk radio and I heard this gem from one of them. In that 2003 championship season the 5 rather average guys manning that OL did NOT miss a snap of practise or game time. Not one. Think they had good continuity? I'd be surprised if over the next 2 weeks our potential OL will likely get 30-50 snaps together in pads, all under very controlled situations.

I really think we have to be ready for some bumps along the road as the OL starts to develop that critical continuity. An OL works as a UNIT, not just 5 individuals winning or losing on a particular play. Even if someone gets beat, but he is IN the right place, ON the right guy, when the OL is in synch there is a decent chance the man who Beats the individual OLman can be pick up or slowed down a bit by his linemante.

We are DEFINITELY not going to see that on opening day. It's not anyone's fault, it's just the luck of the draw. (which lately has SUCKED for me. ) You couldn't predict Strange's injury, Anderson' sickness; the time it would take for Owenu to get back on the field OR the injuries to Reiff, McDermott and Brown among others The OL has been snake bitten this preseason as Mike has said. You cannot prepare for this amount of OL snaps being missed.....you just have to DEAL with it;

Yes adding 2 developmental OT's at the last minute looks like a bandaid job, because THAT is what it is. It is Bill dealing with the hand he was dealt with. He's likely seen every snap Lowe and Wheatley has had this preseason including practise tape, so he knows what his getting. In my idealized world NEXT your our starting OT's are Wheatley and Sow, but I really don't want EITHER starting now.

It might not be pretty, but it will be VERY interesting to see who trots out to man the OL come the first game.

 

[long distance]

We are applying hindsight

Some were applying foresight. For three years straight. It was easy to see where this OL and particularly OT incompetence is going.

You reap what you sow is said. Lets see:
For 2 over the last 3 seasons they bet on Brown and Wynn as starting tackles. Both had extensive injury history by then missing a ton of games.
Ok, when healthy and focused - they'd be formidable starting tackle duo esp. with what the league has to offer - BUT - given significant issues with BOTH one would expect they would build serious depth behind them.

Over the last 12 years they drafted 8 OTs and failed to grow a single starter or dependable swing T outside Wynn - all 8 left wo second contract.
Which is hardly surprising since (outside Wynn) in 12 years they didnt invest a single top 100 pick at the position. Ok, im cheating, they did invest #85 on Garcia who was marked with health issues. We are talking about the most critical position in NFL due to its importance and constant draught both in draft and FA. As you and everyone else know it is very hard to find solid long term starting tackle even outside first round.
To add insult to injury Pats used Day 2 picks in universally considered weak/thin tackle classes and punted or used low picks in rare deeper classes that offered legitimate potential starters on Day 2.
The only 2 players that proved they can play starting quality OT from the 12 year OL crop - Thuney and Onwenu - were/are kept at guard - which is much easier and cheaper position to fill. There was rarely a need for Thuney's outing but Onwenu at RT in this situation ?

You could say there was no OT need having Solder and Cannon for most of the period . but wouldn't you like to add some serious competition if nothing else for economic reasons (Solder's price tag was getting ridiculous for his performance and they finally let go).

And how many competent OTs they acquired in FA? How much they invested there?
On the other hand Bill was always ready to invest not insignificant capital at the end of preseason on other teams rejects to try and save foreseeable depth issues - which is of course better than doing nothing - but it rarely panned out (with Eluemunor arguably best hit that they could have had back for peanuts many times over)..

Many of the OL and esp tackle talent/depth issues were for a long time covered by Dante and Tom. It didn't take a rocket scientist to know better talent would be needed for competent performance after they were gone.

Not to mention OL coaching experiments after Dante...

etc
etc

 

[goheels22002]

This is good news - two young tackles from Big Ten schools with NFL training camps under their belts to add to the core OL group. Better late then never, I would say. We cannot do anything about the past, so this makes me happy. They should be able to find a rotation that keeps putting fresh OL in front of guys looking to kill Mac Jones.

 

[patfanken]

Some were applying foresight. For three years straight. It was easy to see where this OL and particularly OT incompetence is going.

You reap what you sow is said. Lets see:
For 2 over the last 3 seasons they bet on Brown and Wynn as starting tackles. Both had extensive injury history by then missing a ton of games.
Ok, when healthy and focused - they'd be formidable starting tackle duo esp. with what the league has to offer - BUT - given significant issues with BOTH one would expect they would build serious depth behind them.

Over the last 12 years they drafted 8 OTs and failed to grow a single starter or dependable swing T outside Wynn - all 8 left wo second contract.
Which is hardly surprising since (outside Wynn) in 12 years they didnt invest a single top 100 pick at the position. Ok, im cheating, they did invest #85 on Garcia who was marked with health issues. We are talking about the most critical position in NFL due to its importance and constant draught both in draft and FA. As you and everyone else know it is very hard to find solid long term starting tackle even outside first round.
To add insult to injury Pats used Day 2 picks in universally considered weak/thin tackle classes and punted or used low picks in rare deeper classes that offered legitimate potential starters on Day 2.
The only 2 players that proved they can play starting quality OT from the 12 year OL crop - Thuney and Onwenu - were/are kept at guard - which is much easier and cheaper position to fill. There was rarely a need for Thuney's outing but Onwenu at RT in this situation ?

You could say there was no OT need having Solder and Cannon for most of the period . but wouldn't you like to add some serious competition if nothing else for economic reasons (Solder's price tag was getting ridiculous for his performance and they finally let go).

And how many competent OTs they acquired in FA? How much they invested there?
On the other hand Bill was always ready to invest not insignificant capital at the end of preseason on other teams rejects to try and save foreseeable depth issues - which is of course better than doing nothing - but it rarely panned out (with Eluemunor arguably best hit that they could have had back for peanuts many times over)..

Many of the OL and esp tackle talent/depth issues were for a long time covered by Dante and Tom. It didn't take a rocket scientist to know better talent would be needed for competent performance after they were gone.

Not to mention OL coaching experiments after Dante...

etc
etc

Boy, LD, you really ARE pissed off about this topic. Given the apparent state of the OL (which I think will be pretty good by October......barring injuries of course), and you have a RIGHT to be; NO one is happy about the OL on this date, but you simply CANNOT predict injuries and sickness. You cannot judge Bill's team building and his choices of OT's until he gets a healthy group together. The 2 trades yesterday proves he is at least TRYING. (at least to me). Can you at least admit that the injuries and sickness has been a CRITICAL factor in the OL's performance?

Anyhow let's look, with perfect 20-20 hindsight, at what Bill was looking at to build his OL prior to the draft (warning - some of this I have stated in other posts) He was very solid in 4 starting positions with Brown, Strange, Andrews. and Owenu. So the obvious goal this off season was to come out of camp with a starting RT, a decent swing back up, improve the depth of the interior OL which should include finding a guy who can replace DAndrews in 2 or 3 years. Can we agree on that?

FA- on my car ride today this factoid came out of my radio and I found it interesting. I THINK it was WEEI. Walter Football rated the top OT tackles in FA. The top one was Orlando Brown Jr. He got a 4 yr $65MM deal, Next was Mclinchey who got a 5 year $84MM deal. Then they mentioned a guy who I forgot, but he got a similar deal just a bit lower, and #4 and #5 on this list (and this is what made it interesting were Elumanor and Wynn.

So basically there were 3 guys out there that, if healthy would improve your team and probably got overpaid because of the lack of OT numbers this FA season , and after that you get Elumanor and Wynn types. In other words unless you were willing to break the bank on an OT, FA additions were a shot in the dark. And the Pats TOOK a shot with Anderson.

Draft - The consensus prior to the draft was there were 2 MAYBE 3 OT's that were worth a first round pick. In the draft 4 were taken ALL before the Pats #15 pick. The Pats chose a consensus top 10 pick who fell. In the second they got a guy many thought would be a first rounder. In the 3rd they got a mystery man, who has, so far, shown he was WELL worth the pick. In the 4th they got a kicker and the potential depth guy at C/G and neither has proven their worth SO FAR.

Yeah, I wanted an OT in the draft just like everyone else. I knew about the Pitt guy and the Maryland guy, the Syracuse guy, etc. But at that point EVERYONE is a shot in the dark and Bill or his draft team thought they could get a bargain making Sow an OT, knowing it would take a few years.

PLUS at the time of the draft Bill had a ROOMFUL of OT prospects who at one point or another flashed competence. Murry, Stuber, Anderson, McDermott, and a couple more that I cannot recall at the moment. Why wouldn't you expect at least ONE of them would fill one of the roles we needed. But during camp ALL of them lost at least some time to injury limiting their development and find out out who would stand out and win the 2 jobs we need at OT. During FA and the draft you COULDN'T predict what has happened to the Pats. You make those decision based on the knowledge you have AT THE TIME!

Don't you think Bill would have selected differently IF he knew in advance about the OL injury situation? But that is the beauty of 20-20 hindsight; isn't it.

BTW in 2011 Bill made Nate Solder his 4th highest draft pick he's gotten in 20+ years at 17 (Seymour at 6, Mac at 15 and Mayo at 10). And Volmer in the 2nd just 2 years before. (which btw drove pats fans NUTS since he was some tall German guy no one ever heard of who wasn't even invited to the combine) And then of course there is Wynn and Strange. So Bill DOES invest draft capital on the OL

I agree that Bill doesn't often go after OT's early. I THINK he believes that colleges are turning quality OT's at the same rate as WR and you can find gems all over the draft. I also believe, ( and this is just between you and me) that Bill believes this was never going to be a team that would contend for a superbowl. Contend for a playoff spot....maybe, but not a trophy. It will be next year when he has a potful of money (top 5 IIRC) and there will be a better class of OT's to choose from.

He has slowly build a very good defense, and it could be even better this year with the additions of Gonzales, White and Mapu. And if healthy a serviceable offense, which does need a high end OT and depth, and a decent WR who need more explosiveness (assuming Thornton isn't the answer) That might be had in NEXT year's draft and FA class. Let's see.

 

[Toofy]

Boy, LD, you really ARE pissed off about this topic. Given the apparent state of the OL (which I think will be pretty good by October......barring injuries of course), and you have a RIGHT to be; NO one is happy about the OL on this date, but you simply CANNOT predict injuries and sickness. You cannot judge Bill's team building and his choices of OT's until he gets a healthy group together. The 2 trades yesterday proves he is at least TRYING. (at least to me). Can you at least admit that the injuries and sickness has been a CRITICAL factor in the OL's performance?

Anyhow let's look, with perfect 20-20 hindsight, at what Bill was looking at to build his OL prior to the draft (warning - some of this I have stated in other posts) He was very solid in 4 starting positions with Brown, Strange, Andrews. and Owenu. So the obvious goal this off season was to come out of camp with a starting RT, a decent swing back up, improve the depth of the interior OL which should include finding a guy who can replace DAndrews in 2 or 3 years. Can we agree on that?

FA- on my car ride today this factoid came out of my radio and I found it interesting. I THINK it was WEEI. Walter Football rated the top OT tackles in FA. The top one was Orlando Brown Jr. He got a 4 yr $65MM deal, Next was Mclinchey who got a 5 year $84MM deal. Then they mentioned a guy who I forgot, but he got a similar deal just a bit lower, and #4 and #5 on this list (and this is what made it interesting were Elumanor and Wynn.

So basically there were 3 guys out there that, if healthy would improve your team and probably got overpaid because of the lack of OT numbers this FA season , and after that you get Elumanor and Wynn types. In other words unless you were willing to break the bank on an OT, FA additions were a shot in the dark. And the Pats TOOK a shot with Anderson.

Draft - The consensus prior to the draft was there were 2 MAYBE 3 OT's that were worth a first round pick. In the draft 4 were taken ALL before the Pats #15 pick. The Pats chose a consensus top 10 pick who fell. In the second they got a guy many thought would be a first rounder. In the 3rd they got a mystery man, who has, so far, shown he was WELL worth the pick. In the 4th they got a kicker and the potential depth guy at C/G and neither has proven their worth SO FAR.

Yeah, I wanted an OT in the draft just like everyone else. I knew about the Pitt guy and the Maryland guy, the Syracuse guy, etc. But at that point EVERYONE is a shot in the dark and Bill or his draft team thought they could get a bargain making Sow an OT, knowing it would take a few years.

PLUS at the time of the draft Bill had a ROOMFUL of OT prospects who at one point or another flashed competence. Murry, Stuber, Anderson, McDermott, and a couple more that I cannot recall at the moment. Why wouldn't you expect at least ONE of them would fill one of the roles we needed. But during camp ALL of them lost at least some time to injury limiting their development and find out out who would stand out and win the 2 jobs we need at OT. During FA and the draft you COULDN'T predict what has happened to the Pats. You make those decision based on the knowledge you have AT THE TIME!

Don't you think Bill would have selected differently IF he knew in advance about the OL injury situation? But that is the beauty of 20-20 hindsight; isn't it.

BTW in 2011 Bill made Nate Solder his 4th highest draft pick he's gotten in 20+ years at 17 (Seymour at 6, Mac at 15 and Mayo at 10). And Volmer in the 2nd just 2 years before. (which btw drove pats fans NUTS since he was some tall German guy no one ever heard of who wasn't even invited to the combine) And then of course there is Wynn and Strange. So Bill DOES invest draft capital on the OL

I agree that Bill doesn't often go after OT's early. I THINK he believes that colleges are turning quality OT's at the same rate as WR and you can find gems all over the draft. I also believe, ( and this is just between you and me) that Bill believes this was never going to be a team that would contend for a superbowl. Contend for a playoff spot....maybe, but not a trophy. It will be next year when he has a potful of money (top 5 IIRC) and there will be a better class of OT's to choose from.

He has slowly build a very good defense, and it could be even better this year with the additions of Gonzales, White and Mapu. And if healthy a serviceable offense, which does need a high end OT and depth, and a decent WR who need more explosiveness (assuming Thornton isn't the answer) That might be had in NEXT year's draft and FA class. Let's see.

I wish I had your optimism... Dawaand Jones and salyer as well as jaelyn Duncan were three prospects, I was wondering why we didn't draft. Our later round picks have just been some major reaches or random dudes . This year sixth round wide receivers were good picks not in hindsight but good picks on draft day itself. But the same did not apply to 4tg round picks . We just seem to care less about the draft picks after 3 rounds.

Whereas Jake Andrews, ryland , Pierre strong were reaches when we had bigger needs and decent OT available in draft.

 

[PScottman]

We just seem to care less about the draft picks after 3 rounds.

Not sure what "care less" means? Care less about what fantasy football draftniks think? I'll agree 100% there.

I see about what I've always seen in the Patriots drafting with actually some adjustment TO what many have called for especially recently - the BPA approach in the early rounds which has not always been this staff's mantra. With that they seem to have moved their previously early round approach to the middle rounds.

By that I mean taking higher risk, but potentially higher reward chances - whether injury...or smaller school type picks, usually in "need" positions but not always, that if they pan out might be far more than their draft position. They used to do that in the late first/second round on (i.e Gronk)...now it seems to be later in the draft the past couple years.

They absolutely do not just throw all the names left on their board after the second round into a bingo bin, spin the wheel and call whichever one the dog sniffs with its nose which is kind of what I'd term...caring less.

For context, early first round hits for this staff are basically universal BTW - name all of the busts taken before pick 15 by the Patriots under this staff - there are none and any busts over the tenure are arguably two period - Merriweather and Maroney (I know there is a loud contingent putting Jones in there now).

The second round WAS where the staff previously usually took the "shot" at a total boom or bust pick. As stated, that approach has mellowed the past couple years especially...maybe there was a "Kraft missive", maybe not - we might know after Belichick's retirement in some tell all.

If they truly cared less and wanted to stick it to fandom they would've taken Ryland in the first round, Baringer in the second and traded the rest of the picks away for cash considerations they could hoard and not use in free agency.

 

[captain stone]

6’6 290. Acquired from Cleveland for Pierre Strong.



Reports are he had a good preseason. Sounds good to me.

Your definition of Good is clearly different than mine.

 

[captain stone]

Lazaar said this guy hasn’t played in an nfl game. Guess they were very low on Strong.

Then I wish they hadn't drafted him where they did, or at all. Just a Horrible, HORRIBLE waste of precious resources.

 

[captain stone]

Maybe after cutdowns. If Reiff can come back during the season, we’re going to need him sooner or later.

For... what, exactly? Backup LG - that's Sow's job; backup RG - that's Mafia's job; backup Center - never played it; backup LT, RT or Swing Tackle - the dude is no longer an NFL Tackle on Either side of Center.

IR him BEFORE Cut-Down Day, Injury-Settle his ass the moment it becomes financially advantageous, and sign him for Much Less later in the season if necessary... He rates Zero solids from this organization otherwise.

 

[mike_usagisan]

For... what, exactly? Backup LG - that's Sow's job; backup RG - that's Mafia's job; backup Center - never played it; backup LT, RT or Swing Tackle - the dude is no longer an NFL Tackle on Either side of Center.

IR him BEFORE Cut-Down Day, Injury-Settle his ass the moment it becomes financially advantageous, and sign him for Much Less later in the season if necessary... He rates Zero solids from this organization otherwise.

My thought is we have Trent Brown and three young OTs who have started 4 total games. Maybe it might be good to have a vet that can come back and stabilize things if necessary, especially since we already guaranteed his salary.

 

[captain stone]

Maybe this means ty montgomery will make the final 53

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[captain stone]

OT is in short supply around the league, so assuming you'd be able to claim him on waivers is a pretty hefty gamble.

With this dude, not that hefty, at all.

 

[captain stone]

Groh said after the draft that the Pats drafted Sow to be a tackle - not a move of desperation. Maybe give him more than one training camp to develop since he was a guard in college. Let's see ....................................................

Then he should've been cross-training at LEFT Tackle, as more befitting his athleticism AND left-side experience.

 

[captain stone]

Always talk of talent but little about style and fit.
Strong has talent ... apparently does not have a good fit here.
Drafted when the crowned clown was here .... we need OT's ... they liked him before ... no need for drama here.

But the same clown who drafted him last year is still here.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Then he should've been cross-training at LEFT Tackle, as more befitting his athleticism AND left-side experience.

Very little experience. You are emphasizing a minor point.