Needs Analysis: Safety

[BradyManny]

I don't have any idea whether they will attempt to re-sign Tank, though I'd try to bring him back for vet minimum with incentives. That said, I'd have to consider his injury history and think whether to rely on him overcoming that trend or to bring in some competition for him - the latter being my personal choice.

Yup, good point.

 

[Seneschal2]

Unless he hits like a truck for his size, 6'0 190 is way undersized for a strong safety. he could play FS but we already have Meriweather to do that. What the Pats need is an enforcer patrolling the middle. A ronnie Lott type that will make receivers cringe when running those interior routes.

Sounds good on paper. The problem I see on this board is the differing opinions on where Meriweather fits best. It's being suggested that Meriweather is growing into the role Rodney carved out for himself. So does this mean he's better in the box, an enforcer in the short zone, and a keen blitzer? It's also being suggested that he's a better coverage Safety (as in FS w/ CB-like coverage ability). I have no doubt that his strengths lie in his coverage ability (regardless of his time spent in the box this season), and that the freedom to roam is his game. The ability to do both attests to his talent and versatility -- but let us not forget his true strengths.

I like Rashad Johnson a lot (for all the reasons mentioned), and will still keep him on my Pats prospects list. Undersized for what most here are seeking -- sure. But he's still a Pats-type player.

Finding the good-sized (215-220) SS type, strong vs the run, yet not a liablility in coverage is not an easy task. If you find one who fits this criteria, and he's within reach of the Pats draft slots, write his name in ink. Otherwise, for the other candidates -- use your pencil. JMO.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Sounds I like Rashad Johnson a lot (for all the reasons mentioned), and will still keep him on my Pats prospects list. Undersized for what most here are seeking -- sure. But he's still a Pats-type player. JMO.

Johnson started out as awalk on. Those type guys always have a chip on there shoulders and feel they have something to prove to the world.

 

[DaBruinz]

A SS and an OLB are IMHO the two needs for day 1 - how many picks we have will depend on Cassel and if we trade anywhere with the extra's we have from SD and Asante

Of course we'll probably get a DE, RB and a TE having said all that

Unfortunately, as I pointed out, there is not a lot available in terms of high end talent when it comes to SS. As for OLB, there are very few who could come in and do what the Patriots need them to be able to do.

Also, don't discount the fact that the Patriots have Woods, Vince Redd, Vrabel and Adalius Thomas. Not to mention Robertson and Craig. Could they improve on that? Certainly. Is it a MAJOR need. No.

The reality is that the Patriots are not going to find a OLB who can come in and be a Willie McGinest who can rush the passer 60% of the time while still being able to drop back into coverage or being able to set the edge against the run. They are going to have to be developed.

People forget that it took Bruschi 3 years to make the transition to ILB. It took Vrabel being in the league as a DE for 4 years before he was given the chance to be an every down player. Adalius Thomas didn't become an every day starter at OLB until his 3rd season. People point to Lamarr Woodley, but they forget that this is Woodley's 2nd year.

Unless a stellar blue-chipper falls into the laps of the Pats ala a Wilfork, I am expecting the Pats to focus on the lines early on and look at places like SS and LB later in the draft.

 

[DaBruinz]

I could see Johnson as a Nickle back type player or a pure FS, in all honesty. I can also see Meriweather being the kind of all-around safety that gives Belichick great options and better coverage abilities. Meriweather is becoming very solid against the run. He'll never be in Harrison's league as a run stuffer, but Meriweather can definitely hold his own in the box. I could very easily see the Patriots bring out 2 safeties in that mold instead of the typical SS/FS line-up.

If that could happen, then the Patriots would be much better off against the pass without sacrificing much against the run.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Watching my recording of Clemson at Virginia:

SS Michael Hamlin 6'3" 206 looked very good. He was moved to FS after FS Chris Clemons 6'1" 210 was injured on a tackle. I remember watching Clemson in another game and liking Clemons more as a SS type.

 

[DW Toys]

he is this year.........it may not be saying much , but the rest are worse at tackling.......meriweather has his moments, but misses way too many in the name of the big hit.........the pats don't have anyone in the secondary who can wrap up as well as sanders

You have got to be kidding? He is the worst tackler. This was a joke post or an attempt at sarcasm, right? I hope someone offers him a ton of FA dollars....see ya, James!
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

I've actually been more concerned with safties than corners this year. I'm not sold on Sanders (James), I think Sanders (Lewis) has done better. I'm coming around on Meriweather and I think he can be one of the starters. If Rodney doesn't come back we really need an enforcer.

I think Lewis Sanders has been a surprise the last few games. At 6' 1" and 210 and CB experience, his coverage is not a liability as James Sanders is. Can he hit big?....TBD. He has made some big plays lately. Maybe BB has found another hidden treasure.

James Sanders is also way out of position on the center of the field responsibility and gets eaten by the TE over the middle.
DW Toys

 

[DaBruinz]

You have got to be kidding? He is the worst tackler. This was a joke post or an attempt at sarcasm, right? I hope someone offers him a ton of FA dollars....see ya, James!
DW Toys

Just because you are ignorant and don't know what you are talking about when it comes to James Sanders doesn't mean that the rest of us are. You made your idiotic bias known 2 years ago and all Sanders has done is show you to be totally WRONG in your assessment. You can't even admit it. That is how strong and STUPID your bias is.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Just because you are ignorant and don't know what you are talking about when it comes to James Sanders doesn't mean that the rest of us are. You made your idiotic bias known 2 years ago and all Sanders has done is show you to be totally WRONG in your assessment. You can't even admit it. That is how strong and STUPID your bias is.

Db, you can occasionally come off a tad too strong in your posts, but you pulled your punch on this one.

 

[condon84]

My fav safety in this whole draft is still Rashad Johnson. He's experienced, he's been a great player for Alabama in a tough conference, and has produced consistently. He walked-on and is now a team captain. Not the most athletic and not huge at 6'0 190 or so, but a solid player against the run with great instincts in pass coverage. I think BB has seemed to shift away from the 215 lb in the box safety in favor of the more mobile/agile type (see Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, BM in recent drafts). As of now he'll probably end up going in the top half of round 2, but good measurables/40 could vault him into the first.

Problem is with those players is that they're all failures. The coaches love James Sanders for his effort and his hard work, but physically, he doesn't have it. He can't run fast enough, isn't big enough to be effective near the line of scrimmage and is horrible in pass coverage.

I haven't seen Rashad play all that much, but I'm sure Saban will give BB all the info he needs on him.

We need a bigger body that can play closer to the LOS and let Merriweather use his athleticism and range to play centerfield. Like what the Ravens do with Ed Reed. We had Sanders play deep for the most part of the year becase he can't physically handle playing close to the line of scrimmage and foced Merriweather to play Rodney's role. Merriweather is better suited to play the deep end, but Sanders just couldn't cut it near the line of scrimmage. So with James back there, we gave up big plays in passing downs. Notice since Lewis Sanders is back there now, we haven't given up as much big plays as we did? More speed back there can do wonders for a team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Problem is with those players is that they're all failures. The coaches love James Sanders for his effort and his hard work, but physically, he doesn't have it. He can't run fast enough, isn't big enough to be effective near the line of scrimmage and is horrible in pass coverage.

Yes, your evaluation is so correct. Its why the Pats felt that they had 3 starting safeties each of the last 3 years. Cause Sanders sucks so bad, according to you....

I haven't seen Rashad play all that much, but I'm sure Saban will give BB all the info he needs on him.

We need a bigger body that can play closer to the LOS and let Merriweather use his athleticism and range to play centerfield. Like what the Ravens do with Ed Reed. We had Sanders play deep for the most part of the year becase he can't physically handle playing close to the line of scrimmage and foced Merriweather to play Rodney's role. Merriweather is better suited to play the deep end, but Sanders just couldn't cut it near the line of scrimmage. So with James back there, we gave up big plays in passing downs. Notice since Lewis Sanders is back there now, we haven't given up as much big plays as we did? More speed back there can do wonders for a team.

They don't necessarily need a "big body" that can play close to the line. It would be better, in fact, if they didn't have to bring the safety up.

BTW, the Pats gave up big plays back there when it was Harrison and Wilson and they still had Law and Poole.

Umm.. really? Cause each of the last 2 weeks, weeks that James Sanders didn't play, the Pats have given up a huge reception to Johnnie Lee Higgins and another to Larry Fitzgerald.

Also, you fail to acknowledge that weather conditions in each of the last 2 weeks have limited the opposition to what they could do offensively. Especially with the Pats taking early demanding leads..

 

[captain stone]

Problem is with those players is that they're all failures. The coaches love James Sanders for his effort and his hard work, but physically, he doesn't have it. He can't run fast enough, isn't big enough to be effective near the line of scrimmage and is horrible in pass coverage.


We need a bigger body that can play closer to the LOS and let Merriweather use his athleticism and range to play centerfield. Like what the Ravens do with Ed Reed. We had Sanders play deep for the most part of the year becase he can't physically handle playing close to the line of scrimmage and foced Merriweather to play Rodney's role. Merriweather is better suited to play the deep end, but Sanders just couldn't cut it near the line of scrimmage. So with James back there, we gave up big plays in passing downs. Notice since Lewis Sanders is back there now, we haven't given up as much big plays as we did? More speed back there can do wonders for a team.

I agree with everything in this post. Finding a Milloy/Harrison/Tank Williams SS should be a major priority for the FO, along with finding more/better CBs, then OLBs.

 

[kas]

Problem is with those players is that they're all failures. The coaches love James Sanders for his effort and his hard work, but physically, he doesn't have it. He can't run fast enough, isn't big enough to be effective near the line of scrimmage and is horrible in pass coverage.

I haven't seen Rashad play all that much, but I'm sure Saban will give BB all the info he needs on him.

We need a bigger body that can play closer to the LOS and let Merriweather use his athleticism and range to play centerfield. Like what the Ravens do with Ed Reed. We had Sanders play deep for the most part of the year becase he can't physically handle playing close to the line of scrimmage and foced Merriweather to play Rodney's role. Merriweather is better suited to play the deep end, but Sanders just couldn't cut it near the line of scrimmage. So with James back there, we gave up big plays in passing downs. Notice since Lewis Sanders is back there now, we haven't given up as much big plays as we did? More speed back there can do wonders for a team.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't the last part of your post prove my point - that speed is more necessary for our system than size. Remember we play a ton of cover 3 with both safeties deep. I honestly don't really see such a great need for an "in-the-box" safety with our team.

 

[condon84]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't the last part of your post prove my point - that speed is more necessary for our system than size. Remember we play a ton of cover 3 with both safeties deep. I honestly don't really see such a great need for an "in-the-box" safety with our team.

Harrison always played in the box. He didn't have blazing speed but made up for it with his IQ and craftiness. This allowed the Pats to have an extra man in the box for run support and also Harrison was called on to cover the TEs when the opposing teams passed. THis also put Harrison in position to blitz. The Pats used Merriweather much the same way against Seattle. And I think that worked out (mainly because Lewis Sanders was in and provided the speed we needed back there). Although, IMO, Merriweather would be even better playing deep center because of his range.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn't the last part of your post prove my point - that speed is more necessary for our system than size. Remember we play a ton of cover 3 with both safeties deep. I honestly don't really see such a great need for an "in-the-box" safety with our team.

Disagree. Rodney was OFTEn used as the in the box safety by the Pats. Check out the wikipedia article on cover 3.

"One of the biggest benefits of the cover 3 coverage scheme is the ability to walk the SS up into the box with minimal to no changes in the coverage due to the pre-snap center field position of the FS. This enables the defense to play both man and zone coverage out of an 8 man front while cover 2 schemes allow only for man coverage with 8 man fronts. The New England Patriots are notorious for using SS Rodney Harrison as more of a third OLB than a coverage safety and regularly employ cover 3 coverages."

American football strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Getting a versatile SS that can hit the snot out of guys is key. Getting that 8th defender close to the box is a real advantage in stuffing the run and the short underneath stuff. Well, assuming that the SS can stay with his man in the short area. That HAS been a problem in recent years. And that problem has been even more pronounced when Rodney has missed games. It's a tall order but we basically need a Rodney replacement/clone.

 

[condon84]

Yes, your evaluation is so correct. Its why the Pats felt that they had 3 starting safeties each of the last 3 years. Cause Sanders sucks so bad, according to you....




They don't necessarily need a "big body" that can play close to the line. It would be better, in fact, if they didn't have to bring the safety up.

BTW, the Pats gave up big plays back there when it was Harrison and Wilson and they still had Law and Poole.

Umm.. really? Cause each of the last 2 weeks, weeks that James Sanders didn't play, the Pats have given up a huge reception to Johnnie Lee Higgins and another to Larry Fitzgerald.

Also, you fail to acknowledge that weather conditions in each of the last 2 weeks have limited the opposition to what they could do offensively. Especially with the Pats taking early demanding leads..

Dude, where do you get this stuff? The Pats had 3 starting safeties? Wilson and Harrison were our starters until Wilson couldn't get on the field anymore because of injuries. Of course someone else is going to start. That's like saying, "hey, we have 5 starting CBs this year!" No ****, because we had to start Hobbs, Lewis, Delta, Wheatley, and Wilhite at some point because they had to. If Geno had not gotten hurt, that spot would have been his for as long as he wanted.

Also, big plays are inevitable because this is the NFL. But if you actually watch the Pats and are being objective, you'd come away with the impression that Sanders is a liability in the open field, which is where he is because he plays deep center. I will be shocked if BB doesn't address this in the offseason.

 

[DocE]

I can't figure out how the Patriots view the safety position going in the offseason.

1. Is James Sanders viewed as a starting safety going forward?

I don't think you can point to his play as being terrible, but he's made very few big plays, especially in '08. I don't see him as a big hitter, nor do I see him as very instinctual in the passing game.

2. If the Pats want to add a safety do they want a FS or SS?

I know the Pats don't play a traditional FS/SS, but they also don't play with just left and right safeties either, the roles do vary by position. I think most fans, including myself, view Merriweather as more of the FS type, opening up the SS position. That said, when Rodney went down, Merriweather played SS the rest of the year while James Sanders (who many viewed as a possible Rodney replacement when he retired) stayed at the FS positon. I think the Pats might prefer to acquire a FS type rather than a SS type if they view the position as a need.

3. Where do you draft a safety?

Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed were first round picks, but the vast majority of the high caliber safeties in the league were drafted later. Kerry Rhodes, Bob Sanders, Adrian Wilson, Nick Collins and grizzled vets like Rodney Harrison, Brian Dawkins, and Darren Sharper were all drafted after round 1. I think the Patriots can find a safety after round 1.

4. Can the Pats find a safety in free agency?

It's really tough to get a good safety in free agency because the franchise tag number for safety is so low. As of last February, putting the tag on a safety only cost a team 4.4 million, the only position on the field where a franchise tag costs less is kicker. My guess it that guys like Atogwe from St Louis and Jones from Cleveland are franchised given that low tag number.

I am torn on the safety position. Some days, I'd like to see the Patriots add a physical strong safety type like Rodney Harrison while on other days I'd like to see a rangy free safety with good ball skills who would give the defense more speed.

I do know that BB tends to praise Ed Reed and Kerry Rhodes often, so I know he likes the safeties who play center field and make a lot of plays in the passing game.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I can't figure out how the Patriots view the safety position going in the offseason.
-----
I do know that BB tends to praise Ed Reed and Kerry Rhodes often, so I know he likes the safeties who play center field and make a lot of plays in the passing game.

Rhodes also plays well in the box. As for which "position" is drafted, I doubt it will matter vs. where the best "value" is at that point in the draft.

For the handful who can't translate that: if the best value when the Pats pick in round 4 is the rangy centerfielder Doc was pondering, then they draft him and keep Meriweather in the playmaker role; if the best value is a physical SS, then they take the SS and move Meriweather to FS.

 

[DocE]

Good point, it could just come down to value. The only caveat to that is if the Patriots believe Merriweather is significantly better on their scale at one of the safety positions than the other.