Needs Analysis: Safety

[BradyManny]

If we pass early on a William Moore, who fits the size mold of many on this board, there is a heck of a football player who doesn't have the size, but fits the player mold of Pats prospects. Emanuel Cook of South Carolina is quite a player. Rated the #1 junior SS prospect with a round 1-2 projection. Decent in coverage and very strong in the box/short zone due to his tackling ability. Reportedly, a very instinctive player. Nicknamed the Hit Man. Listed at only 5'10" 205, but I've seen him profiled at 215. He's the real deal as a hitter, otherwise his size would be a concern. But when you look back, BB spent a third rounder on SS Gus Scott, he of the 5-10 204 stature.

As far as I know, the Pats still draft football players. So when focusing on the 220+ Safeties, consider the lightweights who can play the position as well.

Bump, good info.

 

[makoute]

sanders is the best tackler they have in the secondary.........but he is too small to make the big hit and too slow to be very effective in coverage

Sanders is not the best tackler on the secondary, his had his hands on many big plays this year, with his bad angles.

 

[DaBruinz]

If we pass early on a William Moore, who fits the size mold of many on this board, there is a heck of a football player who doesn't have the size, but fits the player mold of Pats prospects. Emanuel Cook of South Carolina is quite a player. Rated the #1 junior SS prospect with a round 1-2 projection. Decent in coverage and very strong in the box/short zone due to his tackling ability. Reportedly, a very instinctive player. Nicknamed the Hit Man. Listed at only 5'10" 205, but I've seen him profiled at 215. He's the real deal as a hitter, otherwise his size would be a concern. But when you look back, BB spent a third rounder on SS Gus Scott, he of the 5-10 204 stature.

As far as I know, the Pats still draft football players. So when focusing on the 220+ Safeties, consider the lightweights who can play the position as well.

The problem with a smaller SS is two fold. One is whether they can cover the TE. The other is that they get hurt alot. I only need to point to Bob Sanders and Guss Scott as proof of this.

Also, What is the likelihood of Cook coming out early?

 

[Seneschal2]

Also, What is the likelihood of Cook coming out early?

I'm glad you asked. Looks like he will declare, but I cringed when I read this:

E. Cook out for bowl game; career likely over

It appears Emanuel Cook has made his last tackle for the Game****s.

Cook, USC's leading tackler the past two seasons, is academically ineligible for the Outback Bowl and is expected to declare for the NFL draft, Game****s coach Steve Spurrier said Tuesday.

Cook failed to pass the minimum six hours this semester that the NCAA requires for players to be eligible for a bowl game, Spurrier said.

"As we know right now he will not play in the game," Spurrier said. "It's disappointing that he did not think of his teammates or his university. It's not hard to pass six hours. But he didn't put much effort in it appears. And that's why he's not playing. And it appears right now he's played his last game."

Spurrier said the news did not completely catch him off guard.

"He tossed it in midway through (the semester) from what I understand," Spurrier said.

Cook had 92 tackles last season, including 77 solo stops, and added another 87 tackles this season.

---

I know he's a good football player and thought he might slide to the 3rd or 4th round due to his size. Thought he'd be a worthy addition to the Pats sub packages. But now, after this latest news, I have to wonder what's between his ears and in his heart. We don't know his side of the story but still, how do you miss your team's bowl game even if you plan on declaring?

Seems like he may be missing a couple of the important intangibles necessary to play for the Pats.

 

[BradyManny]

I know he's a good football player and thought he might slide to the 3rd or 4th round due to his size. Thought he'd be a worthy addition to the Pats sub packages. But now, after this latest news, I have to wonder what's between his ears and in his heart. We don't know his side of the story but still, how do you miss your team's bowl game even if you plan on declaring?

Seems like he may be missing a couple of the important intangibles necessary to play for the Pats.

That is disconcerting.

I don't know if heart and dedication can be a learned thing. We've seemed to have learned that perhaps it is not learned, and that it's inherent in an athlete whether they have it or not. Still, if missing the bowl game hurts his stock, and he drops to the mid rounds, I'd say that's when you can take a chance on trying to teach a guy to have character.

 

[Seneschal2]

I don't know if heart and dedication can be a learned thing. We've seemed to have learned that perhaps it is not learned, and that it's inherent in an athlete whether they have it or not. Still, if missing the bowl game hurts his stock, and he drops to the mid rounds, I'd say that's when you can take a chance on trying to teach a guy to have character.

Well said. This is where the interview process would prove to be invaluable; His coaches -- and him directly.

 

[kas]

My fav safety in this whole draft is still Rashad Johnson. He's experienced, he's been a great player for Alabama in a tough conference, and has produced consistently. He walked-on and is now a team captain. Not the most athletic and not huge at 6'0 190 or so, but a solid player against the run with great instincts in pass coverage. I think BB has seemed to shift away from the 215 lb in the box safety in favor of the more mobile/agile type (see Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, BM in recent drafts). As of now he'll probably end up going in the top half of round 2, but good measurables/40 could vault him into the first.

 

[p8ryts]

I've actually been more concerned with safties than corners this year. I'm not sold on Sanders (James), I think Sanders (Lewis) has done better. I'm coming around on Meriweather and I think he can be one of the starters. If Rodney doesn't come back we really need an enforcer.

 

[DaBruinz]

My fav safety in this whole draft is still Rashad Johnson. He's experienced, he's been a great player for Alabama in a tough conference, and has produced consistently. He walked-on and is now a team captain. Not the most athletic and not huge at 6'0 190 or so, but a solid player against the run with great instincts in pass coverage. I think BB has seemed to shift away from the 215 lb in the box safety in favor of the more mobile/agile type (see Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, BM in recent drafts). As of now he'll probably end up going in the top half of round 2, but good measurables/40 could vault him into the first.

Neither Guss Scott nor Dexter Reid were considered to be strong safeties. James Sanders, at 5'10 and 205 lbs, was. Also, I think you need to review two most recent players that the Pats had for that "in the box" safety. They were Rodney Harrison and Tank Williams. Harrison is 6'1 and 225 and Williams is 6'2 and 223. Sanders is undersized for the position.

 

[BelichickFan]

My fav safety in this whole draft is still Rashad Johnson. He's experienced, he's been a great player for Alabama in a tough conference, and has produced consistently. He walked-on and is now a team captain. Not the most athletic and not huge at 6'0 190 or so, but a solid player against the run with great instincts in pass coverage. I think BB has seemed to shift away from the 215 lb in the box safety in favor of the more mobile/agile type (see Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, BM in recent drafts). As of now he'll probably end up going in the top half of round 2, but good measurables/40 could vault him into the first.

I like Johnson a lot - but probably not with Meriweather unless they do what you're talking about with two smaller Safeties. It doesn't seem like a good fit, unfortunately, because I love the intangibles you talk about plus the fact that he's making the defenses adjustments for Saban. Belichick can be unconventional, as he was going to go with two slower Safeties in Milloy and Harrison before he released Milloy so you never know.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Sanders is not the best tackler on the secondary, his had his hands on many big plays this year, with his bad angles.

he is this year.........it may not be saying much , but the rest are worse at tackling.......meriweather has his moments, but misses way too many in the name of the big hit.........the pats don't have anyone in the secondary who can wrap up as well as sanders

 

[kas]

Neither Guss Scott nor Dexter Reid were considered to be strong safeties. James Sanders, at 5'10 and 205 lbs, was. Also, I think you need to review two most recent players that the Pats had for that "in the box" safety. They were Rodney Harrison and Tank Williams. Harrison is 6'1 and 225 and Williams is 6'2 and 223. Sanders is undersized for the position.

RH was brought in 2003 and is a borderline HOFer - that's different from any draft pick, especially one that isn't in the top half of the first round. Tank Williams played almost exclusively as a pass coverage LB for us before getting injured.

I'm not saying that BB won't draft a big 6'2 220 lb safety - but he hasn't brought in that type of player recently (the notable exception being John Lynch who didn't make it through TC).

 

[DaBruinz]

RH was brought in 2003 and is a borderline HOFer - that's different from any draft pick, especially one that isn't in the top half of the first round. Tank Williams played almost exclusively as a pass coverage LB for us before getting injured.

I'm not saying that BB won't draft a big 6'2 220 lb safety - but he hasn't brought in that type of player recently (the notable exception being John Lynch who didn't make it through TC).

You missed the entire point of my post. The Point was that the players that the Patriots have been drafting at safety have been for the free safety position. Those tend to be the "lighter" type safeties who are better in coverage. James Sanders is a tweener. He doesn't really have the size of a SS and really isn't that great in coverage.

Tank Williams wasn't playing "almost exclusively" as a pass coverage LB. He was out there as a roving safety in Nickle formations and ended up playing near the line. But I can guarantee you that, had he not been injured, he'd have been the 1st person off the bench to replace Harrison. Williams is and has always been a strong safety in the league.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I like Johnson a lot - but probably not with Meriweather unless they do what you're talking about with two smaller Safeties. It doesn't seem like a good fit, unfortunately, because I love the intangibles you talk about plus the fact that he's making the defenses adjustments for Saban. Belichick can be unconventional, as he was going to go with two slower Safeties in Milloy and Harrison before he released Milloy so you never know.

Unless he hits like a truck for his size, 6'0 190 is way undersized for a strong safety. he could play FS but we already have Meriweather to do that. What the Pats need is an enforcer patrolling the middle. A ronnie Lott type that will make receivers cringe when running those interior routes.

 

[kas]

You missed the entire point of my post. The Point was that the players that the Patriots have been drafting at safety have been for the free safety position. Those tend to be the "lighter" type safeties who are better in coverage. James Sanders is a tweener. He doesn't really have the size of a SS and really isn't that great in coverage.

Tank Williams wasn't playing "almost exclusively" as a pass coverage LB. He was out there as a roving safety in Nickle formations and ended up playing near the line. But I can guarantee you that, had he not been injured, he'd have been the 1st person off the bench to replace Harrison. Williams is and has always been a strong safety in the league.

Cool, I see what you're saying. My point, however, is more that maybe we're not really looking for that SS type anymore. In fact, I remember reports from TC where Tank was taking second team reps at ILB behind Bruschi. IMO BB wants more speed in the secondary. That's why recently we've seen him draft FS body types and, when injuries hit, move corners there rather than LB's like he used to. At least that's what I'm thinking...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Cool, I see what you're saying. My point, however, is more that maybe we're not really looking for that SS type anymore. In fact, I remember reports from TC where Tank was taking second team reps at ILB behind Bruschi. IMO BB wants more speed in the secondary. That's why recently we've seen him draft FS body types and, when injuries hit, move corners there rather than LB's like he used to. At least that's what I'm thinking...

Tank started Training Camp paired with Bruschi as the first team ILB duo. Mayo eventually moved up and Tank slid back. Tank also worked at S. I personally believe he was working at ILB to bring him up to speed faster on the Patriots defensive approach (Field General Bruschi and his personal touch) where Tank would be playing a Rover role similar to what Rodney has done in the past in the Nickel and Dime packages.

Tank has the speed to run with the most athletic TE and RB and the strength/size to compete with the bigger TEs - I never really thought he was likely to be used at ILB in the base 3-4, but expected him to be playing down in the box in Nickel/Dime packages where his size would allow him to be more competitive against the run.

Based on what I've seen this season, Meriweather is growing into the role Rodney carved out for himself. Myself, I'm shopping for a Reserve SS, someone who can be groomed behind Meriweather while serving as the Nickel/Dime Safety and is capable of playing and surviving in the box. If Rodney is healthy and wants to come back great, I expect him to play behind Meriweather, but in this draft I'm looking ahead for a reserve S with some size to play in situational football where size is more of a factor.

 

[DaBruinz]

This is not a very deep draft for the top tier talent. There are a lot of mid-round picks who could be interesting.

I don't think that Michael Hamlin or Nick Harris fit what the Pats look for in a SS or even a tweener like Sanders. I think that Kevin Ellison won't be on the Pats list due to his history of knee injuries.

I think that they'd be looking at guys like Otis Wiley, Chip Vaughn or Al Afalava. A dark horse could be junior Cam Chancellor if he declares. He's got the height (6'2) and weight (225lbs) that the Pats look for in their SS and has the ability to play in coverage. Another junior to watch for is Justin Wooddall of Alabama. If he declares, he could also be on the Pats radar.

And, yes, I haven't included Taylor Mays because I expect him to be off the board by the time the Pats pick, if he declares.

 

[JoeShmoe]

A SS and an OLB are IMHO the two needs for day 1 - how many picks we have will depend on Cassel and if we trade anywhere with the extra's we have from SD and Asante

Of course we'll probably get a DE, RB and a TE having said all that

 

[BradyManny]

Based on what I've seen this season, Meriweather is growing into the role Rodney carved out for himself. Myself, I'm shopping for a Reserve SS, someone who can be groomed behind Meriweather while serving as the Nickel/Dime Safety and is capable of playing and surviving in the box. If Rodney is healthy and wants to come back great, I expect him to play behind Meriweather, but in this draft I'm looking ahead for a reserve S with some size to play in situational football where size is more of a factor.

So you don't think the Pats will look to bring Tank back?

IMO - your description of Tank and his role w the Pats sounds both accurate and pretty worthwhile - if he's healthy, I wouldn't mind seeing him re-signed. Meriweather has played well in the role he's been put in - but he also has the quickness and coverage skills to either play the star position on nickel downs (did well there in the 4th quarter against the Rams when injuries forced him there), or be the centerfield type free safety in zone coverage. He's turning into a very versatile player, which maybe could have the added benefit of making the Pats coverages a little harder to diagnose. What I'm saying is I still see room for Tank given Meriweather is developing in such a way that he can play many roles in the secondary.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

So you don't think the Pats will look to bring Tank back?

IMO - your description of Tank and his role w the Pats sounds both accurate and pretty worthwhile - if he's healthy, I wouldn't mind seeing him re-signed. Meriweather has played well in the role he's been put in - but he also has the quickness and coverage skills to either play the star position on nickel downs (did well there in the 4th quarter against the Rams when injuries forced him there), or be the centerfield type free safety in zone coverage. He's turning into a very versatile player, which maybe could have the added benefit of making the Pats coverages a little harder to diagnose. What I'm saying is I still see room for Tank given Meriweather is developing in such a way that he can play many roles in the secondary.

I don't have any idea whether they will attempt to re-sign Tank, though I'd try to bring him back for vet minimum with incentives. That said, I'd have to consider his injury history and think whether to rely on him overcoming that trend or to bring in some competition for him - the latter being my personal choice.