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NE offense is too complex for receiver X (e.g., Mike Wallace) myth

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by kudzif, Mar 12, 2012.

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  1. kudzif

    kudzif Practice Squad Player

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    A lot of people say oh we should not bring a receiver like Wallace for example because the offence is too complex. Also, there is the theory that receivers have generally failed in NE because they could not grasp the offence. I think this is false because if you really look at the free agent wrs we have brought over the years they have all been Wrs whose best days are gone(Galloway) or were just never really good .As for the draft pick wrs that did not pan out in NE , none of them has ever gone on to do anything significant at any other team with a so called simpler offense, and most of them are out of the NFL. We have never had a wr on top of his game come here (highly regarded free agent WR ) and fail and don't mention Chad he had been declining for years now. Our problem at this position is we have been trying to outsmart the NFL ,but the NFL has valued these guys appropriately , and our drafting at this position sucks. Is our offense more complex than others probably , but the case for it being the cause for the failure rate at the WR position has been overstated.
     
  2. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It sure seems like it could be the complexity of the scheme itself, although it's likely a combination of multiple factors.

    If I had to pick just one theory though, it would likely be the complexity of the system, the ability to read and react appropriately, and the timing that's involved.
     
  3. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It isn't a myth that the Pats have one of the most complicated offenses in the league with more presnap reads and adjustments than most offenses. Also, it is well known the Steelers do not have a complicated offense.

    Wallace may be able to pick up the Pats' offense, but it isn't a guaranteed.

    Joey Galloway may have been done, although he played the next year in Washington, but it was quite clear that he refused to work to pick up the offense while he was here and Brady was noticeable upset with his lack of understanding of the offense when they were pictured on the sidelines together.

    Also, many reporters in this area, including Greg Bedard today have said that Ochocinco never picked up the offense last year and it wasn't as much a skill set thing and more of a lack of grsp of the offense. That is why he isn't getting cut and being allowed to try to earn a spot on the team in August.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  4. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Talent is Talent if Gronk and hernandez could pick up the system as rookies im sure any WR that can get open will not have a hard time geting the ball from Brady
     
  5. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Or Hernandez and Gronk have football smarts. The Pats have gone through a lot of TEs over the years too.

    There are a lot of WRs out there who totally rely on their physical skills and not their football smarts and there are others who rely on their football smarts over superior football skills. That is why smart, less physically talented reeivers like Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Patten, David Givens, and Wes Welker have thrived in this system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
  6. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    i agree that they are smart but i also think they are two of the most talent TE's in the NFL
     
  7. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Are the two trait mutually exclusive? Can't a player have an extremely high football intelligence and also have extremely high physical skills?

    Again, Welker isn't extremely physically gifted. Neither was Branch in his prime. Or Troy Brown.
     
  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't see it as a matter of 'learning' the offense, but a matter of having higher expectations for the mental part of the game.
    Yes, we are precise in alignment especially with the 2 TEs, so you have to remember where to line up, but come on that isn't an issue for someone who has played football their whole life.
    The issue is that receivers are expected to read the defense and adjust their route to it.
    Often it is portrayed that they don't know the playbook, but that isn't the reality.
    The reality is they are poor at recognizing the coverage and making the correct decision.
    The 2 primary examples 85 and Galloway are WRs who spent their entire careers having plays desgined to draw coverage away from their routes, and were never, ever asked to think while running a route, outside of setting up the Db for your cut.
    Both of them spent many years in the NFL essentially ignoring what we told them to now focus on. They just couldn't do it.

    Personally, I think it would be foolish to dumb down the offense and make it less effective in order to be able to get results out of guys who just don't understand what a defense is doing.
    We have had many, many examples of receivers who have no problem with these decisions. Its kind of silly to think the football IQ required is too high because 2 guys who spent 10+ years playing the game differently didn't learn it right away.
     
  9. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    you have no Disagreement from me my point is i dont think you need to be Albert Einstein to play for the pats if you have good Football knowledge and can beat one on one coverage you can make plays for the pats
     
  10. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan In the Starting Line-Up

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    Jabar Gaffney begs to differ. I think they did their homework in picking the two current TE's, football smarts and gifted athletes. Branch is a good example of someome that thrived in this system but didnt do much in Seattle, he'd probably already be out of football if he wasnt with the Pats.
     
  11. Banjo

    Banjo Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    It can't be that complex. Just run when Brady yells "Alpha GO"!
     
  12. rabidfireweasel

    rabidfireweasel Practice Squad Player

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    No he isn't. Deion Branch, in his first 3 years with Seattle had remarkably similar stats in terms of yards per catch, yards per game and TD's as he did in NE.

    NE Yards/Game YPC TDs
    2003 53.3 14.1 3
    2004 50.4 13.0 4
    2005 62.4 12.8 5
    SEA
    2006 51.8 13.7 4
    2007 60.1 13.5 4
    2008 51.5 13.7 4

    Branch was pretty much the exact same guy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  13. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    How much evidence does one need? It is not the pre-snap adjustments that are the problem, it is the post-snap adjustments that have to happen at game speed. It's not a matter of understanding the offense, you have to recognize many things and make several split second adjustments while executing a precise route.
     
  14. Gumby

    Gumby 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I'll let the rest of you argue about the complexity of the offense argument; although I think that kudzif is flawed there too.

    As for the "NFL has valued these guys properly." If my memory serves me correctly; the wr position has about the highest bust rate of #1s. How can that be properly valued???

    And it is indisputable that wr is the most DIVA position on the field. If you take away Sanchize; even the 31 starting QBs don't have anywhere near the laundry list of egotist, look at me types compared to WRs.

    Now I would agree that the Pats havent used #1/2 picks on WRs much. But frankly if the choice is to get a massive OL or DL who will anchor one side of the ball for 10 years or get some T.O. wanna-be who will be with us for 3 team-dividing years and then bolt for the most cash he can find.....give me the Solders or Wilforks every time.
     
  15. PatriotDynasty_12

    PatriotDynasty_12 On the Game Day Roster

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    I'm sorry, but you didn't real state anything to back up your case.
     
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I disagree. How many times do we see Brady get upset when the throws the ball to one place and his receiver runs a different route? With guys who struggle with the offense, quite a bit.

    It is a combination of a lot of things that makes this offense so hard to grasp. It is the presnap reads and the post snap adjustments. Many times, they go hand-in-hand.
     
  17. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. However is it worth the risk of the 6/60, and it could be more, that it will take to bring in Wallace or Jackson? The second thing that does is set the bar for Welker. Are you going to give him 4/40, or more? Any receiver they bring in is coming in under market value or on a prove it deal. You aren't doing a one year prove it deal with Wallace and giving up a first and if you did the Steelers would gladly match that deal or even take the first rounder laughing. They aren't going to pay the top two WRs 20M combined. That's a sixth of the salary cap on two players.

    The most I see them paying is a guy like Reggie Wayne a 3/18 type of deal and I'm sure he's looking for his last big paycheck and won't take that anyway. I think you can get Lloyd in that range and he's the most likely and has lower risk having already succeeded in the system and Josh can work with him.
     
  18. Garbanza

    Garbanza In the Starting Line-Up

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    Great. Just because Chad Ocho-crappo Johnson ended up being a COLLOSAL failure - now the fanbase is afraid of a GREAT talent like Wallace.

    Please....football God's.....rid the Patriots of that waste of time, Chad. Please. Pretty please....putting a cherry on top....
     
  19. MoLewisrocks

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    Supposedly the Saints and Colston are grappling over 5 @ $7M. I don't think Reggie is going to get 6/$18M except from whichever team signs his QB. He may get $6M up front or $10M guaranteed but he will be on a year to year deal. Bedard thinks that Lloyd's market will be more along the lines of $3M-4M per. Or Ocho money.
     
  20. everlong

    everlong Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    If they can get Lloyd for 4/16 and Wayne for 4/20 that would be awesome. Their offense would pretty much be untouchable when healthy. Throw in Branch and a draft pick for depth.

    Perhaps I'm overrating the WR market in terms of money/year. I've been using Santonio Holmes awful contract as a baseline but maybe teams have realized how stupid that was.
     
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