My random thoughts on the game

[Ring 6]

How is it different?

Because of matchups. You split out a TE from a base formation to get him one on one with a safety.
If you put him in the WRs position he is covered by a corner

 

[JMarr]

As disappointed as most of us were about the Ravens fiasco last year, you get the feeling that BB had long odds on that team going all the way and just kind of shrugged his shoulders when the Ravens put us out of our misery. Some of us were in total denial that we were in the midst of a major rebuild in 2009.

The 2009 team had major flaws. O'Brian was learning on the job. Brady wasn't completely in sync. The AD situation seemed to just suck the life out of the team at times. And you can't just yank out a player like Seymour [or even Vrabel] and expect that the defense won't miss a beat.

This years team has none of those problems. They seem to be hungry and to have good chemistry now. Not to mention that guys like McCourty, Spikes, Tate, Mesko and Chung look like they are going to have a major impact. My only concern is in the trenches. As someone said earlier, it would be HUGE if Brace steps up and plays like everyone thinks he's capable of. Oh, and keeping Brady upright is going to be big as well.

 

[Patspsycho]

Because of matchups. You split out a TE from a base formation to get him one on one with a safety.
If you put him in the WRs position he is covered by a corner

I didn't realize that. Thanks.

 

[Trocadile]

Because of matchups. You split out a TE from a base formation to get him one on one with a safety.
If you put him in the WRs position he is covered by a corner

Sorry - I (and just about everybody) would define a WR as an eligible receiver who lines up split wide from the formation, whether he is covered by a CB, safety or nose tackle. Football positions are defined by where you are when the ball is snapped, though, for simplicity's sake, we refer to players by where they line up the most often. Who is covering you has never had anything to do with it.

Hernandez, if he earns playing time, can be used as a hybrid - sometimes a WR, sometimes a TE, sometimes a FB - and that is not how the Patriots have used anybody on a consistent basis (only on an occassional basis).

Note: I never said they were designing new plays or formations for him (though, if he's good enough, they might) - what is different about their use of him is the number of different positions they put him in, not that they are inventing new positions they've never used before.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

As disappointed as most of us were about the Ravens fiasco last year, you get the feeling that BB had long odds on that team going all the way and just kind of shrugged his shoulders when the Ravens put us out of our misery. Some of us were in total denial that we were in the midst of a major rebuild in 2009.

The 2009 team had major flaws. O'Brian was learning on the job. Brady wasn't completely in sync. The AD situation seemed to just suck the life out of the team at times. And you can't just yank out a player like Seymour [or even Vrabel] and expect that the defense won't miss a beat.

This years team has none of those problems. They seem to be hungry and to have good chemistry now. Not to mention that guys like McCourty, Spikes, Tate, Mesko and Chung look like they are going to have a major impact. My only concern is in the trenches. As someone said earlier, it would be HUGE if Brace steps up and plays like everyone thinks he's capable of. Oh, and keeping Brady upright is going to be big as well.

What everyone? If Brace played to the level the majority around here have been projecting he'd be Co-Captain of the Jest.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Now that I finally got a chance to watch the game without being drunk...

1. This isn't the most talented team in the league. But, throughout the preseason, they've been playing with a distinct purpose. What, exactly, that purpose is we'll probably never know. But they clearly have a goal this season and seem to be playing with a swagger on both sides of the ball. Hopefully it holds up throughout the regular season when the competition gets much more stiff.

PWP: Folkin' A, B and C!

3. Vollmer still has areas to work on in his game as well. He has very quick feet for his size, but he's still susceptible to a bull rush. That was the case with the strip sack on Brady (I believe Biermann was his man?). But, overall, he's a solid starting RT and should prove to be an upgrade over Kaczur. He's improved a lot since last season.

PWP: Gotta fix that. Franchise at risk. Awsome run blocker though.

4. Fred Taylor is running with a purpose so far this preseason. I hope he stays healthy. A stable of running backs like Taylor, Maroney, Morris, and Faulk as well as a renewed focus on the running game could make this offense extremely hard to stop this season.

PWP: One more year before Medicare from these guys please

5. Brady is in midseason form. Most of us have maintained that he should see a better year in 2010 and that looks to be the case. Welker is back on the field with him (awesome), he and Moss are on the same page, Edelman has improved since 2009 (which is scary), and he looks comfortable with Aaron Hernandez. I was hoping to see some Tate action last night, but he already showed confidence in throwing to Tate for a big third down in the New Orleans game. I'm expecting a solid season from him, though I would probably stay away from him in fantasy leagues. A renewed focus on the running game would help the offense, but hurt his overall statistics.

PWP: Agree. Tate. Edelman. Stats. Whatever. Brady & Moss are On A Mission!

6. Good to see Welker get on the field again. And it was good to see him get drilled. He needed it.

PWP: More hatred for short people. When will it stop?

7. The back-up offensive lineman have quite a bit of work to do.

PWP: The prototypical understatement.

8. Hopefully we never have to see Brady leave a game again. But, if he does, I would be comfortable with Hoyer coming in. The kid has a strong arm, is a good decision maker, and is mobile in the pocket.

PWP: Lacks the hair though. Bigtime.

10. Brandon Spikes, I think, has already solidified himself as the bonafide starter at ILB next to Mayo. I don't even think it's a question. McKenzie should spell him with Guyton coming in on third downs. I'm very excited to see what Spikes and Mayo are going to do together this season.

PWP: I get wood over that. Tough to do after June prostate cancer surgery.

11. I also can't wait to see what Chung will do this season. He has been all over the field in both the Saints and the Falcons games. He shows a strong nose for the ball, is a sure tackler, and can hit like a Mack truck. His coverage abilities also seem to be well improved over last preseason as well.

PWP: And Brown is my binky at that position

That's about it for now.

I am pumped & jacked for this season

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

My point remains sound, the game is won and lost at the line, Joe Montana will look like garbage if he doesn't have any protection. People want to bash Cassel right now because memories are short but he preformed quite well here when the pieces were in place around him.

As per the original comment about Cassel, I think at the end of 08 he looked way better than Hoyer does now but Hoyer has advanced much quicker than Cassel. Cassel had all the mental/physical tools but he didn't have the experience, once he got that he blossomed, Hoyer might become amazing but we'll have to wait and see for the time being.

BTW, we desperately need a youtube highlight video of Bledsoe, this should be a board-wide project.

Agreed but keep in mind that Cassel had three years of holding a clipboard and learning the playbook before he was thrown in in 2008. Hoyer has had one year in the system and looks better than Cassel did in pre-season and limited cleanup/garbage time.

 

[Ring 6]

Sorry - I (and just about everybody) would define a WR as an eligible receiver who lines up split wide from the formation, whether he is covered by a CB, safety or nose tackle. Football positions are defined by where you are when the ball is snapped, though, for simplicity's sake, we refer to players by where they line up the most often. Who is covering you has never had anything to do with it.

But that is exactly the point. If you take the WR off the field and replace him with Hernandez you have one of the slowest WRs in the league being covered by a corner.
If you play his a TE, and widen him out (like the Colts do with Clark) you have a mismatch.
The original point here was that Aiken may get reps as a WR (if he makes the team and is active) because of his blocking. Hernandez isnt playing the same position.

 

[Patspsycho]

Sorry - I (and just about everybody) would define a WR as an eligible receiver who lines up split wide from the formation, whether he is covered by a CB, safety or nose tackle. Football positions are defined by where you are when the ball is snapped, though, for simplicity's sake, we refer to players by where they line up the most often. Who is covering you has never had anything to do with it.

Hernandez, if he earns playing time, can be used as a hybrid - sometimes a WR, sometimes a TE, sometimes a FB - and that is not how the Patriots have used anybody on a consistent basis (only on an occassional basis).

Note: I never said they were designing new plays or formations for him (though, if he's good enough, they might) - what is different about their use of him is the number of different positions they put him in, not that they are inventing new positions they've never used before.

But that is exactly the point. If you take the WR off the field and replace him with Hernandez you have one of the slowest WRs in the league being covered by a corner.
If you play his a TE, and widen him out (like the Colts do with Clark) you have a mismatch.
The original point here was that Aiken may get reps as a WR (if he makes the team and is active) because of his blocking. Hernandez isnt playing the same position.

I think this is a good and interesting discussion.

We might have a "slow" WR if we align him as WR but he would outmuscle and outsize a CB, so that is in a way, a mismatch.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I think this is a good and interesting discussion.

We might have a "slow" WR if we align him as WR but he would outmuscle and outsize a CB, so that is in a way, a mismatch.

Therefore, the pattern he runs is critical.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

But that is exactly the point. If you take the WR off the field and replace him with Hernandez you have one of the slowest WRs in the league being covered by a corner.
If you play his a TE, and widen him out (like the Colts do with Clark) you have a mismatch.
The original point here was that Aiken may get reps as a WR (if he makes the team and is active) because of his blocking. Hernandez isnt playing the same position.

You mean, like Welker?

 

[Ring 6]

You mean, like Welker?

Considering Welker is among the very quickest I dont understand

 

[Ring 6]

I think this is a good and interesting discussion.

We might have a "slow" WR if we align him as WR but he would outmuscle and outsize a CB, so that is in a way, a mismatch.

I'm not sure its one that can be exploited very well in the passing game though. Maybe a WR screen.
I am thinking that his speed, quickness and agility, which is an asset vs safeties and LBs becomes a liability against corners, so I'm not sure what is gained by playing him at WR/

 

[Trocadile]

But that is exactly the point. If you take the WR off the field and replace him with Hernandez you have one of the slowest WRs in the league being covered by a corner.
If you play his a TE, and widen him out (like the Colts do with Clark) you have a mismatch.
The original point here was that Aiken may get reps as a WR (if he makes the team and is active) because of his blocking. Hernandez isnt playing the same position.

I think we can agree that if every time Hernandez is matched against a cornerback it proves to be a mismatch in favor of the defense, then the Patriots will try to avoid that matchup. I disagree that we should assume that will always be the case. As others have suggested, there are patterns, especially near the goalline, where size and strength advantage is more important than speed and quickness advantage (and, in any case, Hernandez is no slouch in the quickness department).

Furthermore, plenty of pass-catching TEs get covered by cornerbacks, especially in nickel and dime packages (Dallas Clark probably more than anybody right now). If the player and the offense are skilled enough, there are ways to exploit this to the offense's advantage (Dallas Clark doesn't get shut down just because the other team plays an extra corner on him). Whether Hernandez will prove to be one of these sufficiently skilled players is open to debate - some of us who watched him in college think he might.

As for Aiken - yes, the Patriots often use him as a blocking WR, often in single WR sets - one of the irritating "tells" which I wish they would self-scout themselves out of. If he makes the team (and I expect him to), I imagine they will continue to use him this way - at this point, he's probably better at blocking from the wide position than any alternative.

 

[Ring 6]

I think we can agree that if every time Hernandez is matched against a cornerback it proves to be a mismatch in favor of the defense, then the Patriots will try to avoid that matchup. I disagree that we should assume that will always be the case. As others have suggested, there are patterns, especially near the goalline, where size and strength advantage is more important than speed and quickness advantage (and, in any case, Hernandez is no slouch in the quickness department).

Furthermore, plenty of pass-catching TEs get covered by cornerbacks, especially in nickel and dime packages (Dallas Clark probably more than anybody right now). If the player and the offense are skilled enough, there are ways to exploit this to the offense's advantage (Dallas Clark doesn't get shut down just because the other team plays an extra corner on him). Whether Hernandez will prove to be one of these sufficiently skilled players is open to debate - some of us who watched him in college think he might.

As for Aiken - yes, the Patriots often use him as a blocking WR, often in single WR sets - one of the irritating "tells" which I wish they would self-scout themselves out of. If he makes the team (and I expect him to), I imagine they will continue to use him this way - at this point, he's probably better at blocking from the wide position than any alternative.

I think that our WRs are better Wrs than Hernandez, who is a promising TE.
There are many similar players to him in the league and all play TE not WR.

It would appear we are not going to agree.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Interesting discussion, Andy. The match-up question is important, and I hadn't considered it. I suspect Aiken is typically in there spelling Moss. At such times, there's a huge drop-off in passing potential, which ends up being a bit of a tell. It is hard to imagine Hernandez filling that role, since then we'd be in a heavy package, which is just as much a tell. It might be Tate who give Moss the occasional rest this year, but then there will be a drop-off in WR-blocking ability.

I do think that this year we spend a lot of time in a 2WR, 2TE, 1RB set, using Gronk, Hernandez, Moss, Welker, Committee. Against this package, a 3CB nickel would soften the run defense considerably, allowing Hernandez to move to H-back or come in motion, block for WR screens, etc. It means changing the play mix, but I'd think it's more effective than the lineup with Aiken and Welker. As such, Aiken's snaps would likely be reduced, as they are bound to be when we have an influx of offensive weapons at pass-catching positions, particularly potential receivers who are his equal at blocking.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Agreed but keep in mind that Cassel had three years of holding a clipboard and learning the playbook before he was thrown in in 2008. Hoyer has had one year in the system and looks better than Cassel did in pre-season and limited cleanup/garbage time.

That is because Belichick feels no need to conduct a biblical JOB test with an experienced college regular who endured year so flosing at out manned Michigan State. He needed that info for the non playing Cassell, to see if he would come apart under adversity.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Interesting discussion, Andy. The match-up question is important, and I hadn't considered it. I suspect Aiken is typically in there spelling Moss. At such times, there's a huge drop-off in passing potential, which ends up being a bit of a tell. It is hard to imagine Hernandez filling that role, since then we'd be in a heavy package, which is just as much a tell. It might be Tate who give Moss the occasional rest this year, but then there will be a drop-off in WR-blocking ability.

I do think that this year we spend a lot of time in a 2WR, 2TE, 1RB set, using Gronk, Hernandez, Moss, Welker, Committee. Against this package, a 3CB nickel would soften the run defense considerably, allowing Hernandez to move to H-back or come in motion, block for WR screens, etc. It means changing the play mix, but I'd think it's more effective than the lineup with Aiken and Welker. As such, Aiken's snaps would likely be reduced, as they are bound to be when we have an influx of offensive weapons at pass-catching positions, particularly potential receivers who are his equal at blocking.

RE Tate as blocker:
I thought Tate did a pretty good job escorting Sammy Moss into the endzone on his TD run...

 

[AzPatsFan]

Now that I finally got a chance to watch the game without being drunk...

1. This isn't the most talented team in the league. But, throughout the preseason, they've been playing with a distinct purpose. What, exactly, that purpose is we'll probably never know. But they clearly have a goal this season and seem to be playing with a swagger on both sides of the ball. Hopefully it holds up throughout the regular season when the competition gets much more stiff.

2. Connolly and Neal are good pulling guards. Connolly can get upfield quickly and bear down on a defender before that defender even knows he's there. For my criticisms of Connolly, I've always maintained that he's a good run blocker. His question marks come in pass blocking. Thursday night, he had some good moments in pass blocking, and some not so good moments. One of those moments included when he messed up on an assignment and let Abraham come through his gap. This is something that can be corrected though and, so far through the preseason, Connolly has played better than I expected. Though, to be honest, I didn't have very high expectations to begin with.

3. Vollmer still has areas to work on in his game as well. He has very quick feet for his size, but he's still susceptible to a bull rush. That was the case with the strip sack on Brady (I believe Biermann was his man?). But, overall, he's a solid starting RT and should prove to be an upgrade over Kaczur. He's improved a lot since last season.

4. Fred Taylor is running with a purpose so far this preseason. I hope he stays healthy. A stable of running backs like Taylor, Maroney, Morris, and Faulk as well as a renewed focus on the running game could make this offense extremely hard to stop this season.

5. Brady is in midseason form. Most of us have maintained that he should see a better year in 2010 and that looks to be the case. Welker is back on the field with him (awesome), he and Moss are on the same page, Edelman has improved since 2009 (which is scary), and he looks comfortable with Aaron Hernandez. I was hoping to see some Tate action last night, but he already showed confidence in throwing to Tate for a big third down in the New Orleans game. I'm expecting a solid season from him, though I would probably stay away from him in fantasy leagues. A renewed focus on the running game would help the offense, but hurt his overall statistics.

6. Good to see Welker get on the field again. And it was good to see him get drilled. He needed it.

7. The back-up offensive lineman have quite a bit of work to do.

8. Hopefully we never have to see Brady leave a game again. But, if he does, I would be comfortable with Hoyer coming in. The kid has a strong arm, is a good decision maker, and is mobile in the pocket.

9. Gerard Warren has a little ways to go until he makes us forget about Ty Warren. On the 2nd and 6, he was shoved back by a single blocker as Turner rumbled for a first down. This, unfortunately, was the case more than it wasn't Thursday night. He was frequently handled (though not manhandled) by a single blocker and rarely demanded two guys to block him. I saw him overpersue on multiple occasions as well. If there's good news, though, it's that he appears capable of getting a strong push into the backfield against a single blocker on passing plays. Can he do it against two men? That remains to be seen. Elsewhere on the D-Line, Wilfork was a beast against the run. Wright appeared to have a strong game but, to be honest, my eyes were focused on Wilfork and Warren more than him.

10. Brandon Spikes, I think, has already solidified himself as the bonafide starter at ILB next to Mayo. I don't even think it's a question. McKenzie should spell him with Guyton coming in on third downs. I'm very excited to see what Spikes and Mayo are going to do together this season.

11. I also can't wait to see what Chung will do this season. He has been all over the field in both the Saints and the Falcons games. He shows a strong nose for the ball, is a sure tackler, and can hit like a Mack truck. His coverage abilities also seem to be well improved over last preseason as well.

That's about it for now.

RE: Your Point #10 on ILBs.

One of the unrecognized reasons that the Mayo/Guyton pair didn't work out so fine in 2009, is that Guyton is a weak side ILB just like Mayo. Today I think the Mayo WILB, and Spinks SILB is the right pair. Their proper, respective backups are MacKenzie at reserve SILB, and Guyton at reserve WILB.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

RE Tate as blocker:
I thought Tate did a pretty good job escorting Sammy Moss into the endzone on his TD run...

Oh, I agree, but Aiken and Moss are excellent blockers have ~20 pounds on Tate. That size is particularly useful, when you are coming across the middle taking on LBs and S with your block, like Aiken did on that play, completely cleaning out the S/OLB.