More Internal dissension In The War Room?

[BelichickFan]

Who are these three guys?

Patriots All Access - 5/3/2013

Yeah, there's a few more there than I realized. Any have a Belichick voodoo doll ? That could tell us who disagreed.

 

[BritPat]

I think the guy at the bottom is Bob Quinn, Pro Scouting Director.

 

[BritPat]

I think the other dude is Monti Ossenfort, Jon Robinson's second in command.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yeah, I've watched that film about 10 times myself and to say he struggled is well over the top.

At worst he came out with a draw, especially with a lot of the runs going up the middle. He actually flashed some excellent back-side pursuit in that game.

EDIT: I actually flagged that particular game up on here last week in the thread about him being picked in the Draft and noted how he fared against NFL-style blocking.

EDIT 2: Said post: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-insane-athlete-thread-page3.html#post3445251

He made good plays in pursuit, no doubt, which is a testament to his athleticism and effort. He also overpursued on a couple of plays, but I'm not too worried about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgo4xXFTA84

Pay particular attention to the plays at 1:57 (vs. Kyler Reed, a TE/FB UDFA), 4:52 (vs. Andrew Rodriguez, who will most likely never play in the NFL), and 5:35 (vs. Zach Sterup, a redshirt freshman tackle, and David Sutton, a redshirt freshman TE). it's pretty clear that, when Nebraska ran in his direction, he got driven back and out of the play. And he wasn't exactly going against premium talent, either.

If your view is that he was strong in pursuit and weak when they ran at him, then I'd agree with that. But where you've concluded that that makes his run defense a draw at worst and a plus at best, I'm going to have to disagree. Especially when discussing his prospects as a DE at the NFL level.

Playmaking in pursuit is a completely separate skill from his ability to take blockers head-on; they're different skills, and neither reflects much on the other. At LB, being a playmaker in pursuit who struggles to take on linemen directly isn't such a bad thing; in fact, it's pretty much par for the course. At DE, though, it becomes a major problem, and that's why he'll be limited to specialist duty at DE if he plays there at all.

And again, that's not to say that he won't get there eventually. If he works on his hand technique and puts on some muscle, then I wouldn't be shocked to see him become serviceable in this area by as early as next season. If, of course, that's how the Patriots choose to use him. Keep in mind, we're talking about a guy who weighs 250 pounds. For contrast, Chandler Jones weighed in at 265 at the combine, and was only that light because he wanted to show that he could play DE or OLB. His playing weight for the Patriots was heavier than that. At 250, Collins is lighter than Mark Anderson, and we all saw how much he struggled against the run.

I'm honestly not sure how this statement is even a little controversial. As a DE, he'd be an undersized guy whose technique needs work and who was regularly overwhelmed on running plays by sub-NFL caliber athletes. He's clearly not ready to be a base DE yet, and probably won't be for at least a year.

 

[BritPat]

He made good plays in pursuit, no doubt, which is a testament to his athleticism and effort. He also overpursued on a couple of plays, but I'm not too worried about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgo4xXFTA84

Pay particular attention to the plays at 1:57 (vs. Kyler Reed, a TE/FB UDFA), 4:52 (vs. Andrew Rodriguez, who will most likely never play in the NFL), and 5:35 (vs. Zach Sterup, a redshirt freshman tackle, and David Sutton, a redshirt freshman TE). it's pretty clear that, when Nebraska ran in his direction, he got driven back and out of the play.

This is completely separate from his ability to make plays in pursuit; they're different skills, and neither reflects much on the other. At LB, that isn't such a big deal, but if he wants to play any DE for the Patriots, he will have to improve significantly there.

There's also 0.22 against TE Long, nice rip move that sheds the block but the run is already too far beyond the LOS due to #55 being on skates going backwards.

0.56, beats TE McDermott off the snap and gets into Marrow's legs, which force him into the back of his own #61.

1.25 - diagnoses the play perfectly, bolts the door and then gets the tackle on the second attempt.

The Reed play - he kept his eyes on the runner at all times, shed Reed and then knocked Abdullah OOB after a 2 yard gain.

4.04 - scrapes down the LOS and dumps Martinez into the dirt for a 5 yard loss on a QB keeper.

4.15 - beats his man on the line with another rip move but again #55 is on skates and the hole opens for the RB to dive into.

The Rodriguez play - against a guy with 3 inches and about 80 pounds on him he did okay. He got jacked upright but then again managed to tear the player off him within 2/3 yards. Off topic, Rodriguez has all the hallmarks of a stud, the only thing lacking is the desire. When he's on, he's on. Big shame.

The Double Team - wow, a young player with one year and a bit as a Defensive End is beaten by a double team. I'm shocked.

So, after watching all 5.58 for the eleventh time, as I said, it was at worst a draw. Oh, and the double team was the only time in the game they actually ran "at him". None of the other occasions you or I have mentioned involved that happening. They didn't need to run at him, the middle of that Southern Miss D was a disgrace to begin with.

 

[BritPat]

And no-one is contending he's perfect or even very good with his technique to play the run yet. But he's certainly good enough to be on the field early. Put him in on sub-packages alongside Cunningham (who has quietly done okay as a nickel DT rusher) and there's a bit of speed at least.

 

[BradyFTW!]

There's also 0.22 against TE Long, nice rip move that sheds the block but the run is already too far beyond the LOS due to #55 being on skates going backwards.

0.56, beats TE McDermott off the snap and gets into Marrow's legs, which force him into the back of his own #61.

1.25 - diagnoses the play perfectly, bolts the door and then gets the tackle on the second attempt.

The Reed play - he kept his eyes on the runner at all times, shed Reed and then knocked Abdullah OOB after a 2 yard gain.

4.04 - scrapes down the LOS and dumps Martinez into the dirt for a 5 yard loss on a QB keeper.

4.15 - beats his man on the line with another rip move but again #55 is on skates and the hole opens for the RB to dive into.

The Rodriguez play - against a guy with 3 inches and about 80 pounds on him he did okay. He got jacked upright but then again managed to tear the player off him within 2/3 yards. Off topic, Rodriguez has all the hallmarks of a stud, the only thing lacking is the desire. When he's on, he's on. Big shame.

The Double Team - wow, a young player with one year and a bit as a Defensive End is beaten by a double team. I'm shocked.

So, after watching all 5.58 for the eleventh time, as I said, it was at worst a draw. Oh, and the double team was the only time in the game they actually ran "at him". None of the other occasions you or I have mentioned involved that happening. They didn't need to run at him, the middle of that Southern Miss D was a disgrace to begin with.

At 0:22, his being pushed back was what opened up the hole that the RB ran through for a 9 yard gain.

0:56 was a good play by Collins, agreed.

At 1:25 nobody attempted to block him, so I really don't see how that addresses the argument that he has trouble with that.

At 4:04, again, nobody attempted to block him

At 4:15, the run was going up the middle. The guy who was blocking him accomplished his job, although he wasn't beaten clearly enough for me to include it in my initial post. Even if the middle of the defense hadn't caved, it's unlikely that he would have been in any position to make a play.

To address these, in particular:

The Rodriguez play - against a guy with 3 inches and about 80 pounds on him he did okay. He got jacked upright but then again managed to tear the player off him within 2/3 yards.

The Double Team - wow, a young player with one year and a bit as a Defensive End is beaten by a double team. I'm shocked.

Those comments are both part of the point that I'm making. Yes, he struggled against someone with 3 inches and 80 pounds on him. Do you think that that there's a shortage of 320 pound tackles in the NFL? The Patriots alone have three of them. Likewise, the fact that he's inexperienced as a defensive end won't suddenly stop being a factor now that he's in the NFL.

If anything, it'll be more of a factor, at least at first. I'm still optimistic that, if the Pats want him to be a DE, they should be able to turn him into one with time. But if that's their vision for him, then it will take time. He'll need to put on some weight and he'll need to work on his hand technique. Which is where this whole conversation started. With me claiming that he's too light and too raw to be a regular contributor at DE this season (outside of maybe a pass-rush specialist role).

 

[Gumby]

The issue with Collins as a 4-3 OLB is that he has much more experience as a 4-3 DE moving north-south.

Given his documented athleticism, it it possible that he could also successfully play in coverage/space?
Sure it is; he just doesn't have a history of proven performance, yet (I hope).

This is the risk of drafting him at 52 instead of a LB like Arthur Brown, a higher-floor/lower ceiling guy
with proven coverage skills whom Ozzie Newsome chose 4 picks later, or waiting until the 3rd/4th-round picks
and choosing a more traditional 4-3 DE in Alex Okafor or 4-3 OLB in Kaseem Greene (from Rutgers!).

HELLO??? Isnt this the guy who was a S converted to LB and then used as a DE (and was a QB before that in HS). I would think a guy who successfully played S (supposedly was primarily/only? moved up cause he kept growing). I think he doesn't have anything to PROVE about 'PLAYING IN COVERAGE/SPACE' (except at NFL level).

If that is the only reason you are worrying about him (risk) then you should be celebrating him taking him and noting that these other teams took similar (lesser players) just 4 picks later seems to say BB knew what he was doing getting him when he did.

 

[BradyFTW!]

HELLO??? Isnt this the guy who was a S converted to LB and then used as a DE (and was a QB before that in HS). I would think a guy who successfully played S (supposedly was primarily/only? moved up cause he kept growing). I think he doesn't have anything to PROVE about 'PLAYING IN COVERAGE/SPACE' (except at NFL level).

If that is the only reason you are worrying about him (risk) then you should be celebrating him taking him and noting that these other teams took similar (lesser players) just 4 picks later seems to say BB knew what he was doing getting him when he did.

Agreed- every second round DE/OLB has at least some risk/uncertainty. He'd be a first rounder if he didn't. Betting on a converted safety to be able to move in space and cover a bit is a risk worth taking.

 

[DW Toys]

He didn't make himself any points with what he said about CB.

- As you've said, are looking up for Dennard now that he's avoided in-season jail. There's no recent woes, he's just referring to the guily verdict.

- He references trading down as a bad thing as we could have drafted a CB who would have made an immediate impact whereas Collins may not be a starter; barring injury I highly doubt one of the available CB would have been any higher than fourth given Arrington's ability as a slot CB.

- He references issues in the War Room - we all know there's no scouts in the war room. Other than the Krafts, just Bill, Casserio, Robinson and Ernie. Maybe Robinson had an issue with a pick or two but there were no scouts in the war room arguing there point, as he suggested, as the scouts aren't there.

HERE, HERE! Excellent point. You are right. No scouts allowed. Somebody is making up a story. Most boards had Collins rising and a definite second rounder in fact could have been late first rounder. A fourth? Show me that scout. I call B.S. on this waste of reading.
DW Toys

 

[iapatsfan]

My biggest worry isn't his play vs the run. It's that, despite all of his athleticism, I have yet to see any highlight that shows any semblance of pass rush ability. I know YouTube clips aren't the best resource, but can anyone point me to any clip where he is shown beating an offensive lineman with a burst around the edge, a spin move, a rip, a bull rush or any type of pass rush technique that NFL pass rushers use?

I watched a 24 minute clip of Marshall vs Southern Miss highlights hoping to see something that excited me about Collins, but he doesn't show up at all. He looks like a JAG. On many plays he is last guy to react to the snap of the ball. No explosion off the line. Marshall is not a hot bed of OL talent, so you would think he would show up somewhere. If someone can point me to any video that shows explosive pass rush ability, I'd love to see it. The only highlights of sacks I've found we're either coverage sacks or blown blocking I assignments.

 

[Joker]

Ultimate Jamie Collins Highlights (NFL Draft 2013 - 52nd Pick // New England Patriots) - YouTube

he led Miss ST in tackles by 20 and sacks with 10, playing DE this season

he led the team in tackles as a linebacker in 2011

maybe you just have this urge to hate and hate and hate on a particular player

 

[iapatsfan]

Ultimate Jamie Collins Highlights (NFL Draft 2013 - 52nd Pick // New England Patriots) - YouTube

he led Miss ST in tackles by 20 and sacks with 10, playing DE this season

he led the team in tackles as a linebacker in 2011

maybe you just have this urge to hate and hate and hate on a particular player

Actually I want to like this guy, but even his highlight videos make him look like a JAG.

 

[Joker]

Time will tell....

 

[patfanken]

I don't understand why there is such a heated discussion about his potential play against the run as a DE. First of all BB has already stated that he'll be playing LB, so on that alone, why are we so concerned about how he'd play a position that as of now he's NOT going to play.

But lets say at some point the Pats want to try him out as a DE in a 4-3 as a speed edge rusher. So what if he proves he can't defend against the run. Christ, Elvis Dummerville, Cameron Wake, have had very nice careers as pass rushers who can't defend the run and and Bruce Irvin and that guy from the Rams everyone wanted a few years ago, are 2 young up and comers who also can rush the passer but suck against the run....and there's no great angst going on about them on Raven, Dolphin, Seahawk, and Rams boards. PLUS we don't know for certain that he would suck against the run.....yet. Didn't we all think that Jones wouldn't hold up against the run.....before he did.

So people are just making great leaps of faith on both sides of this issue.

 

[JMC00]

If he was played for Alabama or LSU and put up similar numbers to what he did at Southern Mississippi he would have gone in the top 20.

But the problem was he played on the absolute worst team in the FBS last year. Out of 124 teams they were ranked 124.

 

[AzPatsFan]

He didn't make himself any points with what he said about CB.

- As you've said, are looking up for Dennard now that he's avoided in-season jail. There's no recent woes, he's just referring to the guily verdict.

- He references trading down as a bad thing as we could have drafted a CB who would have made an immediate impact whereas Collins may not be a starter; barring injury I highly doubt one of the available CB would have been any higher than fourth given Arrington's ability as a slot CB.

- He references issues in the War Room - we all know there's no scouts in the war room. Other than the Krafts, just Bill, Casserio, Robinson and Ernie. Maybe Robinson had an issue with a pick or two but there were no scouts in the war room arguing there point, as he suggested, as the scouts aren't there.

Gee Whiz, You wouldn't be implying tha tthe media prevaricates and makes up stories?

Quell Idee.

To paraphrase somebody from Rick's Cafe, " The media is as honest, as the day is long!" and "I'm shocked. Shocked! To find gambling going on!"

 

[Brady2Moss]

If he was played for Alabama or LSU and put up similar numbers to what he did at Southern Mississippi he would have gone in the top 20.

But the problem was he played on the absolute worst team in the FBS last year. Out of 124 teams they were ranked 124.

Exactly any deficiencies in his game will be magnified because he isn't going from that kind of production against A competition to NFL, he is going from Conference USA to NFL, bigger leap than most.

I think Collins should be fine as a coverage linebacker he played safety he should have the instincts. I doubt he will be a big time pass rusher maybe he'll chip in 4 sacks if he is covering TEs and RBs well those are just a bonus.

 

[JMC00]

Anyone looking at Collins to be the pass rusher from this draft you're looking at the wrong guy. Focus your attention on Michael Buchanan.

Collins will be the SLB which allows Bill to move Hightower to MLB which I believe he will excel at.

 

[DarrylS]

Dissension is the word I have trouble with in this discussion, if everyone agreed on every pick we could just use computers... in the end BB is the boss and he will take responsibility as he always has.

I think Collins is a very interesting pick, and another swiss army knife kind of guy who will give our defense an added dimension.