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More Internal dissension In The War Room?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by manxman2601, May 7, 2013.

  1. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    Tony Pauline reviews the Patriots draft and has a couple of nuggets that are both interesting and questionable.

    On Jamie Collins:


    On Duron Harmon:

    If true, another brains trust v scouting department inability to be on the same page is troublesome because it hasn't gone well in the past.

    Pauline certainly has good contacts in general although he's not always completely reliable when it comes to the Patriots so this is 'pinch of salt' worthy but is still worthy of attention.

    Grading the Draft: New England Patriots

    From my perspective, I do think every pick has some risk aside from the Boyce pick. There is certainly plenty of upside in Collins, Dobson and Ryan in particular but there's an equal bust opportunity with all three that does concern me.
  2. BelichickFan

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    A couple of psuedo releated things I've read :

    1) The Browns would have taken Collins somewhere in the first round had they traded down. Of course they're switching to a 3-4, it'll be interesting to see how Collins is used.

    2) With the #52 pick we used to take Collins the Browns tried to trade up for that pick but didn't want to pay the Patriots' asking price of the Browns' #3 in 2013 and 2014.

    These both come from a fairly reliable "insider" area of a Browns board I read.
  3. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    If everyone agrees, and no one challenges, then BB is an inflexible dictator and the game is passing hm by.

    If there is disagreement and challenge, then there is "internal dissension."

    At this stage of building the roster, I'd rather they take some "low floor, high ceiling" guys.
  4. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    I'm willing to bet these dissenting opinions occur often and in every war room. I can't imagine there's a single team in the NFL that has it's owner, GM, head coach, OC/DC, and all of its scouts on the same page regarding every player. And when there's a difference of opinion, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the guy in charge of choosing the players would be the one who breaks the tie.
  5. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Curious as to who the players were in the past that the scouting and coacihng did not agree on? And how reliable are those sources and was it a hindsight peice years later or was it immediately following that draft?

    I would also suggest a few possible and reasonable reasons for the potential conflict.

    First as it relates to Collins maybe they have a plan on shifting back to 3-4 more or maybe they just wanted him for when they actually do run the 3-4 which even though it is used less they still use it from time to time.

    Second as it relates to the Harmon pick I would be more concerned with BB ignoring the scouting staff to take players from teams that he hasn't obviously scouted heavily himself. I know its the scouts job to evaluate the talent but are we really going to sit here and say BB was wrong for going against his scouts for a player he so obviously has inside knowledge of?
  6. JMC00

    JMC00 Rookie

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    I don't get that statement.

    The CB position is pretty intact outside of maybe bringing in a veteran like a Sheldon Brown or someone to be that #3 outside CB so the Pats can ease in Ryan and don't have to move Arrington if Talib or Dennard go out at anytime.

    And what's with the Dennard thing? Dennard was pretty good last season and he avoided any jail time that could have effect on his season. So i'm wondering what the recent woes are.

    But I think this is another line of someone from the football media throwing crap against the wall knowing it will stick as the Patriots won't ever comment on it.

    Seriously what scouts are talking to these guys? I just have a hard time believing guys in the Pats organization are talking to anyone let alone some Mel Kipper blogger.
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He didn't make himself any points with what he said about CB.

    - As you've said, are looking up for Dennard now that he's avoided in-season jail. There's no recent woes, he's just referring to the guily verdict.

    - He references trading down as a bad thing as we could have drafted a CB who would have made an immediate impact whereas Collins may not be a starter; barring injury I highly doubt one of the available CB would have been any higher than fourth given Arrington's ability as a slot CB.

    - He references issues in the War Room - we all know there's no scouts in the war room. Other than the Krafts, just Bill, Casserio, Robinson and Ernie. Maybe Robinson had an issue with a pick or two but there were no scouts in the war room arguing there point, as he suggested, as the scouts aren't there.
  8. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    Well Dennard is a year into his NFL career and already facing both a prison sentence and probation. Talib has his own issues and has signed only for a year and Dowling is oft-injured. Our CB depth is far from settled.
  9. RobAllan

    RobAllan Rookie

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    It's interesting that an article is purportedly offering an insider take. That said, this is also a bit of a "no duh" situation, particularly with respect to the Harmon pick. I don't think most people needed an insider view to figure out some people might not agree with that pick internally, maybe even a large majority.

    As much as we like to pretend war rooms are a more complicated animal than our own forums, it's probably not a whale of a lot different. Yeah there's pro scouts, but they're all watching the same games and hearing the same takes we are.

    There's bound to be a difference of opinion when you do that. And were I one of the scouts that didn't like the pick, I'd be a bit irked. Really, what's the point of doing that job if nobody is going to listen the heck to you anyway? I'm sure there were players available that were more of a consensus. That said, the Pats aren't a democracy, and for the most part I wouldn't want them to be.
  10. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, Dennard is facing jail time, not Prison time. There IS a difference. Also, the issue stems from an incident that happened PRIOR to him joining the NFL. The probation isn't going to be anything to worry about. Dennard went the entire year without issue. I fully expect it to continue. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him spend even less than the 30 days he's been sentenced to.

    When it comes to the Pats War Room, the only person I trust is Michael Holley. And we all know he only says things a few years after the fact. Like mentioning how Scouts didn't want Maroney or Jackson. But that was PRIOR to them setting up their draft board. As mentioned, there are no scouts in the Pats War Room. There are only BB, Caserio, Kraft and whatever advisors BB brings. I know in 2000 he had Rehbein in there because he asked Rehbein about Brady.
  11. BelichickFan

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    The "War Room" this year was :

    Bob Kraft
    Jonathan Kraft
    Bill Belichick
    Nick Casserio
    Ernie Adams
    Jon Robinson (Director of College Scouting)

    I think that was it.
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The irony of what he said about CB is he really likes the one we got and Ryan will be in line to get the same potential playing time that one we could have taken in the first round would have. Nice depth for now and a potential starter down the road depending on how everything falls out.
  13. JMC00

    JMC00 Rookie

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    30 days in March 2014. I lean towards that not having any effect on his football career. The judge even said she would consider arguments to suspend the jail sentence and change probation terms. So it's possible he sees no jail time and his probation is shortened from 24 months to at the very best the day of the case review.

    Talib has zero legal issues right now. So the only issue would be injury but as of right now he is not.

    It's laughable that you think i'm even considering Dowling in what I said. Hence why I said outside of bringing in a veteran to be the #3 outside guy. They bring in a veteran he would be above Ryan pushing Dowling and Cole below on the depth chart. Maybe Dowling shakes the injury bug and contributes, maybe he doesn't.


    Maybe Brandon Jones & Stephon Morris show something in training camp and make Marquice Cole and Dowling the odd men out. Both were stand out special team guys in college. We know how Bill values that.

    Maybe they bring in a veteran making it essentially a one spot training camp battle between Dowling, Cole, Jones, and Morris.


    Then there is also McCourty who if they need him he could move back to CB for a period of time. Not that I want him to but it's a possibility.

    So you say the depth is far from settled but yet I think it close to being settled All that's left is the training camp battle. Because at this point there isn't much more the Pats can do other than sign a couple of veteran guys that are still available or become available after June 1st.
  14. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    [​IMG]
  15. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    There's nothing laughable about me connecting your comments to Dowling, because I didn't do it. I just merely commented on Dowling as part of the depth at the position.

    As for Talib not having any issues at the moment, well that's pretty dubious considering he served a four game suspension just last season.

    As for Dennard, his stock was already slipping pre his arrest because he performed so badly at the Senior Bowl. He played quite well for us last season but I think he's some way off being a lock at the #2 CB spot.

    So whilst we're probably fine for 2013, I do think our depth is far from settled, particularly beyond this year.
  16. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    I take it this means something?
  17. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sounds to me like scouts just doing their jobs. I'm sure that there have been scouts in the organization who were puzzled by just about every draft pick the Pats have made. I bet there were some in the organization who outright hated a lot of picks that worked out, from Seymour to Wilfork to Samuel to Branch and all the way up to Gronk and Jones. Picking at #52, I bet that literally every player on the board would have elicited a similar reaction from someone on the board had he been picked. That's just the nature of drafting, especially with a class like this one. If everyone agreed that he was going to be a stud, then he wouldn't have been available at 29, let alone 52.

    As long as they evaluated the player, made their opinion known, and Belichick took it into consideration, they did their job. At the very least, this should dispel the idea that he runs an organization of yes men.
  18. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez Rookie

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    HA HA Yeah he has a drink in his hand and is swirling it around. self explanatory ;)
  19. JMC00

    JMC00 Rookie

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    Does Talib have any issues at the moment? Yes or No? No.

    What the hell does Dennard's stock before the 2012 draft have to do with anything? So he played quite well but is some way off the #2 CB spot? So the Pats are gonna go with Arrington who is clearly better at the slot or Ryan as the #2 CB?

    The fact that you think Dennard is some way off from being a lock for the #2 corner has pretty much convinced me to not even look at any opinion you post from here on out.
  20. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    That's fine.
  21. Tasco

    Tasco Rookie

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    what's the issue with collins in a 4-3? why doesn't he fit there and what are the problems about playing him there? I'm no X&O's guy, so if somebody could explain this to me I'd be thankful.
    I watched some vids on him and he seemed to have some difficulties against the run (wasn't that the knock on Jones too when watching videos from his college career if I remember correctly?), that's the only thing that jumped to my amateur eye.
  22. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It means that the article is interesting to me, especially given that I just spent an entire thread debating 684,315,365,764,313,419 members of the forum. :D
  23. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Rookie

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    Sounds made up to me.

    You know that if this happened, it wouldn't leak anyway, because the Pats treat their management of a sports franchise the way a rogue military junta treats the specs for a uranium enrichment program. Tony Pauline also knows that if he makes it up the Pats won't bother to object publicly, as they never address rumors unless its something big like the cameras thing.

    Put yourself in the mind of a Tony Pauline. What easier pick would there be to say there was "war room controversy" about? Duron Harmon! After all, did Kiper and McShay not have him as an UDFA? Oh and throwing in Jamie Collins, that'll make it seem credible!

    Yeah right. There's dissention all the time among a team's scouts. Why do we only hear about it now? Smells fishy to me.
  24. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    I see. Good luck then for round 2 :)
  25. nowayback

    nowayback Rookie

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    Think about how unfullfilling a job being a scout is. Maybe after 3 yrs with Pats, BB still hasnt chosen any of your suggested picks. You prob dont really care about the Pats, their only satisfaction might be a BB pick failure. For sure they push for their players to be drafted.
  26. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The issue is most likely that, while he has experience in 3 and 2 point stances, he lined up primarily as an edge rusher in college. To do that in the NFL, he'd have to be either a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 DE, and as a 4-3 DE he's likely to get physically dominated on running plays by NFL tackles. He'll need to be a good amount stronger to be able to play on the defensive line, which means that he's probably going to be a 4-3 OLB. On the face of it, it becomes hard to utilize his pass-rushing talents from this position, but who knows what Belichick has in mind for him. Maybe it's as simple as just using him on obvious passing downs, and not worry about teams running at him. Maybe the Pats will rush him on some downs while dropping one of the DEs into coverage to confuse the offensive line.

    Hard to say, but I wouldn't be shocked if this signals a longer-term intention to shift back to a 3-4 base, with Collins and Jones ideally being OLBs, Mayo and Hightower at ILB, and Wilfork, Armstead, and a yet-to-be-signed third on the defensive line. If this is the case, I think it'll manifest itself over the next 1-2 years in the form of Belichick stockpiling a lot more DE-DT hybrid types; guys who can two-gap.
  27. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, I'm done with it. Just thought it was an interesting article, though I am taking it with a grain of salt as well.
  28. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    Agreed on the grain of salt.

    As an aside, did you see that two of the UDFAs I liked have got into trouble already. Armonty Bryant has already had a DUI (had problems at college for selling drugs) and Courtney Gardner has already left the Chargers for personal reasons.

    I'm done with character risk prospects for next year.
  29. captain stone

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    The issue with Collins as a 4-3 OLB is that he has much more experience as a 4-3 DE moving north-south.

    Given his documented athleticism, it it possible that he could also successfully play in coverage/space?
    Sure it is; he just doesn't have a history of proven performance, yet (I hope).

    This is the risk of drafting him at 52 instead of a LB like Arthur Brown, a higher-floor/lower ceiling guy
    with proven coverage skills whom Ozzie Newsome chose 4 picks later, or waiting until the 3rd/4th-round picks
    and choosing a more traditional 4-3 DE in Alex Okafor or 4-3 OLB in Kaseem Greene (from Rutgers!).
  30. patfanken

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    That's a hyperbolic statement about Dennard, Manxy. Even in the off chance the six month sentence gets enforced, he won't miss a day of training camp. And for a first time offender with no past history to get more than probation would be a travesty of justice. BOTTOM LINE - There is no way that Dennard's legal past is going to get into the way of his football future.

    Talib's issues are much more in the past than likely in the future. They happened, no questioning that, but now we have a 2-3 year period without problems. Talib knows the program he signed up for. I don't see any slip ups while he's in Foxboro.

    As to this writer's commentary, I have no problem with it. Like its been said, there are going to be pissed off scouts in every organization. BB's picks of Collins and Harmon make easy targets for stories of discord to sound credible. I don't even mind his grade. There are no spectacular picks there. And if you don't like Collins, like I do, then a C would seem to make sense. Who cares. Any grade now is meaningless.

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