McGinest: "Starks played like trash. He was terrible."

[AzPatsFan]

Part of a true leader is being prudent when talking and being accurate and truthful when you do. Wilie was both. He isn't with the Patriots any more so he can speak, and when he did he spoke truth.

My only comment is that just who is the core he refers to? Willie, Bruschi, TJ, Faulk, Troy, Law, AdamV certainly are charter members.

All the others are imports and by definition are NOT core players. Cox, Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, OTIS, Rodney, Vrabel, Colvin, Antowain, Corey and Izzo, Cherry, Mount Washington, and other lesser lights are imports.

The home grown guys Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Koppen, Neal, Dion, Givens, Grahambo, Watson, Mankins, Kaycur, Wilson, Samuels. Hobbs, Gay, Jarvis came after the fact. They are not core by definition.

Now you might argue that some of these are core guys. What you are REALLY saying is: "Here's the NEW core guys". I'll grant that. Then where is the pitiful newcomers who aren't core. Brady? Seymour? Hardly!

Well Starks and BJ certainly, but I can think of a lot of others in similar categories. Anyone remember Woody or Tony Simmons or Chris Floyd or Sedrick Shaw or Chris Canty? How about anyone on the draft classes from Bobby Grier's era or Belichick's misses Klemm? Holloway et cetera.

The point is who are the NEW core?

Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Jarvis, Colvin, Vrabel, Samuels, Hobbs, Gay, Wilson, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Graham, Watson, Dion, Rodney, Izzo, Davis, Miller, Paxton will do as just a PARTIAL listing of the NEW core

Is this devoid of talent? Not when there are two players, already HOF shoo-ins, the best in the league at their critical positions of QB and DL, to top the list. Great leaders and team players both! And many more here as well.

Lesser lights who worked hard to make themselves in to players and beyond what others expected. How about Russ Hochstein, derided by Sapp as not of NFL caliber, starting for two clubs in their Super bowl runs? And not surrendering a sack to the Carolina pretenders to Seymour as league's best DL? That is every bit as much playing BEYOND yourself as any other.

 

[Alk]

I can't believe some people actually have the nerve to defend Starks over McGinest. Starks was pathetic (whether he was injured or not). Although you can't but the blame entirely on him, early in the season the Pats Defense couldn't stop a high school offense on 3rd downs. Big play after big play, if anybody has that short term of a memory check out games such as Oakland, Denver, Indy, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Atlanta. The defense was hurrendous!

I'm not defending Starks in particular. I don't care who the player is, Willy had no right to throw him under the bus. Real professionals don't make excuses. Leave that to Manning. I was actually still upset that McGinest was gone until today.

 

[richpats]

Sorry Willie, you can't single out a guy that didn't suit up for the final 2 months of the season as proof of why the Pats couldn't win it all without great players in the system. That system helped stuff the Denver offense instead of having them score at will like they have before. The mistakes made that game were made mainly by those core guys, not the fill-ins. Brady, Brown, Faulk, Vinatieri, even McGoo was faked out by Plummer, leading to a 42-yard completion and essentially killing our hopes at a comeback. I seem to remember Willie shoving Izzo in the face too, so he can single out players for playing like trash but Willie acted like trash that night and sadly that will be our last memory of him in a Pats uniform.

I'm curious to how many Browns he thinks play like trash (there will be more than one). I guarantee you next January he'll miss the days when the old system got him into the playoffs every year.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Well thats the media for you.
That was Willie's opinion.
Willie won't be going to the SB ever again and if you would like to email a response to the author of that garbage...here it is:
mailto:[email protected]

Don't Believe the Hype

 

[PATSNUTme]

NEM has posted on this board several times that Starks is a very good player.

So, who's word are we suppose to take, NEM's or Wiile's?

Has NEM ever been wrong?

 

[PatsSteve1]

Not being a knee-jerk, defensive, excuse making Patriots fan, Just a rational one -, I don't see anything wrong with what Willie said. I also have no idea of what was said or asked in the interview or in what context he gace his answer. I do feel the gist of it was that in 2005, the roster wasn't near as strong as in 2003 or 2004. In 2004 the Pats also had plenty of injuries yet always seemed to have a player to plug in who did the job. Last year, that wasn't the case. This year, they don't even have sure-fire starters at some positions. There's little to be sure about at DB, WR and who knows how Beisel will do as the 4th LB, let alone if any of those starting 4 go down. The roster, overall, in 2005 and it looks ike 2006 as well, isn't as strong as it was in 2003 or 2004. Now I guess I'll be finding out what the excuses for that are -

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Part of a true leader is being prudent when talking and being accurate and truthful when you do. Wilie was both. He isn't with the Patriots any more so he can speak, and when he did he spoke truth.

My only comment is that just who is the core he refers to? Willie, Bruschi, TJ, Faulk, Troy, Law, AdamV certainly are charter members.

All the others are imports and by definition are NOT core players. Cox, Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, OTIS, Rodney, Vrabel, Colvin, Antowain, Corey and Izzo, Cherry, Mount Washington, and other lesser lights are imports.

The home grown guys Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Koppen, Neal, Dion, Givens, Grahambo, Watson, Mankins, Kaycur, Wilson, Samuels. Hobbs, Gay, Jarvis came after the fact. They are not core by definition.

Now you might argue that some of these are core guys. What you are REALLY saying is: "Here's the NEW core guys". I'll grant that. Then where is the pitiful newcomers who aren't core. Brady? Seymour? Hardly!

Well Starks and BJ certainly, but I can think of a lot of others in similar categories. Anyone remember Woody or Tony Simmons or Chris Floyd or Sedrick Shaw or Chris Canty? How about anyone on the draft classes from Bobby Grier's era or Belichick's misses Klemm? Holloway et cetera.

The point is who are the NEW core?

The point is a core is a tight knit group in the center of everything who can multitask in both being supportive of teamates and policing the larger team and while maintaining management's back as well. The core is a living thing that transitions with the seasons. Doesn't matter how you arrive at that core level - we're all the children of immigrants save a handful of native americans AZ - and in football everybody is imported either to a team or by a new HC.

The core of this franchise since 2000 has been a combination of holdovers BB identified as being serious about playing winning football (Tedy, Willie, TJ, Adam, Lawyer and Ty were the identified holdovers and Brady, Seymour, Vrabel, Colvin and Harrison have been added along the way since 2000. The core is augmented by a fringe core of role players as well, guys like Phifer and Davis and Izzo. Talent or attitude rentals occasionally plug a gap but they are transitional fringe core.

The problem today is we are losing core players to defection and injury at a rate more rapid than we are adding them. Willie knows the talent exists on this roster, but he also knows that none of them have yet emerged as core leaders. In a perfect world they would, but when they don't it is up to BB to import a few more as he did with Rodney and Vrabel and Colvin. And he will if he has to. I think he's waiting to see how this team rebounds from what was for some their first taste of adversity in 2005. If that isn't enough to cause some of them to start really bringing it, then I don't doubt BB will begin replacing some of them with guys he has identified from outside the team whom he believes will. Changes in the CBA which will make trades more palatable could make that job just a little bit easier too. This year there were likely no guys available he believed fit the bill. Generally speaking it's talented guys entering the home stretch in careers devoid of team accomplishment (Dillon, Harrison) that you want to target. I think that is why he went after Mason last spring. Thought he might fit the bill at WR as the talented player hungry for a chance to experience real success.

Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Jarvis, Colvin, Vrabel, Samuels, Hobbs, Gay, Wilson, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Graham, Watson, Dion, Rodney, Izzo, Davis, Miller, Paxton will do as just a PARTIAL listing of the NEW core

Is this devoid of talent? Not when there are two players, already HOF shoo-ins, the best in the league at their critical positions of QB and DL, to top the list. Great leaders and team players both! And many more here as well.

You confuse talent with core. The are not always one and the same. It's best if your most talented players are core guys, but if you have other core guys you can accommodate non-core talent (Dillon for example). Wilfork, Warren, Samuel, Wilson, Graham, Watson, Koppen, Branch have not shown any inclination to be core guys, Light is borderline, Koppen hasn't committed yet, Neal and Jarvis are backups, Hobbs and Mankins are barely past rookie season, Gay has yet to prove he's more than a fleeting memory, punters and holders are really a stretch - nice to have solid ones but they will never be core. I don't think you really know what a core is.

Lesser lights who worked hard to make themselves in to players and beyond what others expected. How about Russ Hochstein, derided by Sapp as not of NFL caliber, starting for two clubs in their Super bowl runs? And not surrendering a sack to the Carolina pretenders to Seymour as league's best DL? That is every bit as much playing BEYOND yourself as any other.

We still have lots of leadership guys. They just aren't all at core level. But the core is visibly shrinking. There is lots of space for guys who have it in them, but it's been that way since last off season and to date the holes remain. Part of Willie's point is you can't replace a Ty Law with a Duane Starks unless you have a Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi and Richard Seymour on the field in front of them. Even the best system needs playmakers, and for the most part those who most often make the big plays are your core players. The are also players who elevate those around them. Starks was not an elevator - turns out he was a fraud whose rep was elevated by playing for a championship Ravens defense. Tedy and Tommy and Rodney and Richard are elevators. Which is why some of the younger players who leave here to chase that big payday may also end up being crashing disappointments to teams on their subsequent NFL stops - particularly if they expect them to be the ones doing the elevating.

 

[DaBruinz]

Starks was a disgrace to the uniform. And I never understood why people say it was the injured shoulder that prevented him from covering a WR. My only wish was that Willie literally throw him under the bus.

Obviously you have never had a shoulder injury and don't understand the ramifications to the body when its moving rapidly.

Now, as for your other dumb comment, maybe Willie should do the same to you.

 

[DaBruinz]

I can't believe some people actually have the nerve to defend Starks over McGinest. Starks was pathetic (whether he was injured or not). Although you can't but the blame entirely on him, early in the season the Pats Defense couldn't stop a high school offense on 3rd downs. Big play after big play, if anybody has that short term of a memory check out games such as Oakland, Denver, Indy, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Atlanta. The defense was hurrendous!

Sorry, but no one is defending Starks over Willie. That is obviously something you have made up in your mind. Its a matter of being CLASSY. Something that Willie seemed to be the epitome of. Obviously, it was a farce previously.

The Pats couldn't stop teams on 3rd downs for a variety of reasons. One is that the plethora of injuries early. From Bruschi and Ted Johnson being gone before training camp to Vrabel missing most of training camp, to Seymour, Harrison, Poole and Chad Scott going down early in the season.

Yes, the DEFENSE was horrendous. And it doesn't revolve around 1 player. Its a group of 11. Of which, McGinest was one of those 11 and McGinest really didn't do much early on in the season.

 

[DaBruinz]

Part of a true leader is being prudent when talking and being accurate and truthful when you do. Wilie was both. He isn't with the Patriots any more so he can speak, and when he did he spoke truth.

My only comment is that just who is the core he refers to? Willie, Bruschi, TJ, Faulk, Troy, Law, AdamV certainly are charter members.

All the others are imports and by definition are NOT core players. Cox, Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, OTIS, Rodney, Vrabel, Colvin, Antowain, Corey and Izzo, Cherry, Mount Washington, and other lesser lights are imports.

If, by CORE, you mean home grown, I would agree with you. However, I don't believe that CORE means home grown. And I have to disagree with you regarding who the core players were. I feel that Hamilton and Vrabel, most assuredly, are core players. Vrabel's been here since 2001. Hamilton was here in 2000, the start of the BB run.

The home grown guys Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Light, Koppen, Neal, Dion, Givens, Grahambo, Watson, Mankins, Kaycur, Wilson, Samuels. Hobbs, Gay, Jarvis came after the fact. They are not core by definition.

Hobbs, Gay and Jarvis are homegrown though. Core? Gay isn't. Jarvis I would argue is. And I would argue that Hobbs is on his way to becoming oa new one.

Anyways, good post, over-all.

 

[Remix 6]

hey guys i think Texans signed or just brought in Earthwind Moreland. remember him

 

[rabthepat]

Re: McGinest: "Starks was trash. He was terrible."

Whatever, McGinest. The Patriots probably win the Super Bowl last year except for the inexplicable poor play against Denver. It was an atypical performance, mostly unforced, with all the turnovers. So I don't want to hear the "The system was great, but it couldn't save us" stuff. Sure it couldn't save them from a loss after playing a horrendous game but it could save them from the personnel losses he's talking about. They just played a horrible playoff game.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

One thing such speech does indicate is that Crennel/Savage don't have control of their franchise like the Pats do. Such talk was very rare in Patsland for a reason and it wasn't because the players were worried they'd be cut for speaking out. No, these guys bought into the "farnchise is bigger than me" just enough that their respect for the Patriots overcame most of their silly impluses to speak rashly. The winning didn't hurt either.

Romeo probably wishes Willie had just kept his yap shut and focused on the work at hand - making a winner out of a perrenial loser, but Romeo apparently hasn't gotten everyone on the same page yet. Not even his supposed leaders.

 

[the taildragger]

RoughingThePasser, that last clip you posted was by far the most badass YouTube highlight package ever. That team brings a tear to my eye every time…70-1 preseason odds baby! Don’t ever forget it. Just wish they’d make that thing about 30 minutes longer…perhaps set to Orion followed by something a tad heavier like South of Heaven

It was so predictable. When 55 hit the road everyone in Boston was talking about a huge leadership void (which of course was absurd). I downplayed the hype and was accused of being a moron.

You may not think his opinion matters at this point, but what if Starks had returned from his injury (nightmare I know...actually if Willie felt that way, I guarantee you a lot of other guys did too...even if it WAS an injury issue no way Starks could've returned given the "trash" perception). But what if 'ol man Willie decides to make some comments about a guy who's still here?...don't think it can't happen. Then he becomes Joey Porter.

MoLewisRocks made a nice point about “contentment” that hasn’t really been played up as much as it maybe should.

Exactly one year ago, I emailed PFW my top-10 concerns for the ’05 season…#1 was “complacency” (#2 was injuries). The PFW crew read the email on the radio show (including Morry) and LAUGHED at the notion that the Pats could ever be complacent.

Perillo said he’d worry if it were any other team but not the Pats. This year the players and coaches are confirming that they lost some of what made them champions…their attention to detail…their motivation/edge. It’s not that you don’t want to win, but when you’ve been winning so consistently and busting your butt, you start wondering what corners you can cut. Complacency is a disease that affects everyone: players and coaches…you don’t notice it because the onset comes very slowly and it’s never obvious.

It’s a big reason why the Niners couldn’t 3-peat…Bill Walsh and the players have said as much. The Steelers and Cowboys had a chance to 3-peat with arguably the best teams they’d ever fielded…interview those players today and ask them if complacency wasn’t a seriously underrated factor in their demise…though with Pitt, injuries were huge too.

Moral: guess what: they’re human after all.

Good news: the leadership on the team is excellent. We’ve already heard from Sey this week…does he sound satisfied?...truth is great teams rebound after getting slapped in the face…look down through football lore and there are tons of examples…it’s why I’m so confident in the team mindset this season. They’re pissed and want revenge. We may all be focused on contracts and he/said she/said, but all they care about are three things:

• SB XLI
• Denver
• Indy

In that order.

 

[Zuma]

Obviously you have never had a shoulder injury and don't understand the ramifications to the body when its moving rapidly.

Now, as for your other dumb comment, maybe Willie should do the same to you.

You are very wrong my friend...and I have MRI's to prove it. AND...I know for a fact that a shoulder injury is no excuse for always being 2 yards too late. I trust BB's judgement.

 

[onegameatatime]

I do not see why people need to keep debating about whether it's the players or the coaching. I doubt BB could go to the SB with this year's Texans, but in a year or two, I believe he could have them better than most other coaches would.

Someone can say it's all the players, but compare the Pats SB run with Dallas in the early 90s or Pittsburgh in the 1970s. Look at how many of the players on those other teams were there for the whole thing and how many HOFers there were. Then look at how few HOFers are in the Pats run, and how few common players there are from SB36 to SB39.

By the way, Dallas' last in the 3 of 4 run showed that a team of great players could overcome a bad pro coach (wjy Jerry Jones picked Switzer).

It's understandable McGinest would be a little tired of hearing that it was all about the system, and I agree you need a good core of players. But he could have made his point better and did not need to single out Starks, no matter how bad he was. Also, the core has gotten a good share of great publicity.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm find myself being very proud of the folks who frequent this forum. This wasn't Willie's finest hour. I'm hopeful his behavior will serve as a catalist for the New England locker room, I really want to see players foaming at the mouth and laying the wood as they demonstrate to the world which "team" you need to beat if you want to be a champion.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I'm trying to figure out specifically who Willie is throwing under the bus other than Starks who frankly deserved it. He was bad. Just plain bad. I guess I missed the part where the Starks fan club sprouted up again.

What Willie seemed to be saying was that injuries and some personnel misses had a huge impact on this team last year and that the BB way of running a football team kept things from spiraling out of control.

Anyone care to argue injuries didn't impact 2005?

 

[Alk]

I'm trying to figure out specifically who Willie is throwing under the bus other than Starks who frankly deserved it. He was bad. Just plain bad. I guess I missed the part where the Starks fan club sprouted up again.

What Willie seemed to be saying was that injuries and some personnel misses had a huge impact on this team last year and that the BB way of running a football team kept things from spiraling out of control.

Anyone care to argue injuries didn't impact 2005?

That's it, Starks was the only one he threw under the bus. That doesn't change the fact that it was unprofessional. Sure, it's just fine and dandy for dumbass nobody internet posters such as ourselves, but he's a freaking professional athlete. The Mannings and Owens of the world do crap like that, not a former Patriot.

 

[captain stone]

Re: McGinest: "Starks was trash. He was terrible."

Willie lived it, we just watched it, so take it for context. Rodney pretty much confirmed for me the week be was benched that Starks shoulder wasn't the issue, it was his attitude (or lack thereof). That said, there will be a certain amount of sour grapes from any core guy who leaves, as there was when Milloy left. They all have egos and from time to time resent the credit that goes to "the system" aka Belichick even though they know all things being equal his putting them in a position to win is the difference maker here.

But the fact remains, players play and coaches coach. We have part 2 of that equation nailed. Part 1 is fluid depending on who we lose and who we acquire and who can stay on the field. And we do need to start replacing some of the core as it departs because the core is what pulls you though the tough times. Lots of people had begun referring to Deion as a core player - not the case. A critical player at a crucial position, yes. Core, nope. He's flunked the core (compensation) portion of the BB conditioning test. Even Seymour failed it on the first try though he managed to re-group, re-take it and pass. His overall leadership value will remain slightly tainted as a result (see What I Taught Deion Branch To Do by Richard Seymour, 2005).

Adam was a core leader (kicker or not) when for 6 years he took what was offered and delivered. Ditto Willie and Ted. So that's 3 gone both in core talent and core leadership. Troy cannot play forever. We need to start replacing these guys in all their roles - talent, work ethic, brains, savvy and leadership. We've also lost most of the less elitely talented but high in leadership vets BB brought in initially because those were guys BB personally identified in earlier stops who were well beyond prime already when they got here but still had that fire to win and the will to pull others perhaps more talented along with them.

Hopefully some of the rookies playing out or through their deals will begin to emerge, but I haven't seen it at all yet - hear it talked about a lot (so and so has to step up), but talk is not walk. BB probably needs to make a trip or two to the hungry elite/veteran leadership well where he mines guys like Rodney and Rosie. Most often those qualities are forged of frustration and there hasn't been a lot of that here to develop or bring those qualities out in players we've drafted over the last 6 seasons. Winning tends instead to breed contentment which is when guys begin to focus (or as in Seymour's case day dream) on things other than winning - like padding their pre-retirement bank accounts or career stats. Which is why turnover is not always a bad thing. It's just that in our case it's the core that's been turning over (or getting decimated by injury) because it wasn't all that young when the system was installed.

The bad news for other HC's and their fan bases is that the traits that made these guys leaders here don't export well. When they leave here they are either aging core guys checking out for someone else's financial gravy train or youngsters who just hitched a brief ride on the coat tails of others and have no real concept of how to forge themselves as core leaders because their success was a more matter of association with a team where that core already existed - for a time almost in excess.

We are just lucky that the QB came out of college a leader forged in adversity with elite talent and an almost pathological distain for contentment. The Mike LB has a similar mentality. Vrabel got his forged courtesy of the Chin thinking little of him. Rosie playing for a downtrodden bad news Bears. Rodney wasting his hitman prime in beautiful Southern California. Willie and Adam and Ted and to an extent Lawyer and Ty got their hunger living through the Tuna tease followed by the Poodle flop on a team still desperate to finally shed the Patsy label.

Home grown talent these days landed on an established championship gravy train. For most of them last season was their first taste of adversity. Some cried when it was over, but in some cases unfortunately those were apparently crocodile tears....

Why should I even bother posting, when instead I can take pleasure in reading what Mo knows?
(Don't answer that.)
Mo, were you a Journalism, or an English Lit, major in college?