McGinest: "Pats don't take care of their players that are still productive"

[juny]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

I'm a little late to the party here, but I think not resiging Branch was the biggest impact of those listed earlier. I think the Pats would have won it all in '06 with Branch as the #1 WR instead of caldwell. Of course without that devastating loss, the Pats don't spring for Moss (and achieve the 16-0 season). In the end, all of these salary cap moves really haven't put the team in a better place for the long term (based on the numerous holes the team currently has) and the team hasn't won it all since '04. (Of course if the team went 19-0 two years ago, nobody will be talking about this).

 

[woolster22]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

That was in 2003.

I stand corrected.

 

[SVN]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

You just named the only players Indy has shelled out big money too of the past 10 years. You can count them on two hands.

Manning
Glenn
Saturday (a stretch)
Harrison
Freeney
Mathis
Wayne
Bob Sanders
Edge

Thats it. Everyone else is draft or low-end FA. They've let a ton of people walk. Edge, Both starting Dbs from the 06 team, Morrison...

Plus Polian gets bailed out every year with a rising cap figure.

Pats spend to 95-98% of the cap every year.

Sorry for the rant..

and one of is gone like freeney in the SB their depth shows.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

and one of is gone like freeney in the SB their depth shows.

Right, see at least after Seymour we....oh. Their depth shows when they lose their all pro saftey Bob Sanders and Melvin Bullet stepped up nicely. You simply cant have depth at every position, especially when you have two pro bowlers who are paid nicely.

 

[woolster22]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

I'm a little late to the party here, but I think not resiging Branch was the biggest impact of those listed earlier. I think the Pats would have won it all in '06 with Branch as the #1 WR instead of caldwell. Of course without that devastating loss, the Pats don't spring for Moss (and achieve the 16-0 season). In the end, all of these salary cap moves really haven't put the team in a better place for the long term (based on the numerous holes the team currently has) and the team hasn't won it all since '04. (Of course if the team went 19-0 two years ago, nobody will be talking about this).

The only one that could arguably have hurt us this year would be the Seymour trade (jury is still out as we have to wait 3-4 years to see what we get with that pick). Are you trying to argue you would rather have had Vrabel/Willie at OLB this year? Those guys are all done. You may be able to make an argument for Samuel, but I think Bodden was a worthy replacement. You swapped better overall coverage and a hell of a lot less money for a few picks. If you think that Assante is worth what philly gave him then you sir are dillusional. If wilfork leaves town without much of a return this year, then I will be incredibly disappointed with BB and co. I dont expect big Vince to get the gate though. At a minimum we tag him and he whines and moans through TC, and then we do the same going into 11 and trade him then.

 

[fgssand]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

.) The Patriots don't spend to the cap every year, although they are usually very close.

2.) "Spending to the cap" is an accounting gimmick. Actual dollars spent is what matters.

3.) New England is top 5 in revenue, but was only #10 in actual dollars spent from 2004-2008.

That doesn't mean that the Patriots aren't spending any money, and it doesn't mean that the team's cheap, but this myth about how much money they actually spend is just that. In that 2004-2008 year period, they spent $150 million dollars less than the highest spending team.

People can keep bashing players every time one dares to speak out. That won't change the reality of the situation.

Reality is this team, with this coach and these owners are the team of the decade. That's all that really matters.

Furthermore, I wouldn't take another coach or owner going into the next decade.

 

[SVN]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Keeping the facts straight on Pats and Colts

But intimating that the Patriots have been tight with tie money is false. From 2005 to 2009, the Patriots spent $539.9 million on player compensation. The Colts spent $545.7 million. The Jets -- who went free-agent bananas in 2008 -- spent $542 million. And if the Patriots had reached accord with Vince Wilfork before last season began as they were trying to do, they'd have blown away the five-year spending totals of both the Colts and Jets.

some nos

 

[emoney_33]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Your right, we should get rid of our pro-bolwers and build through people like Wilhite and Mike Wright (who I think is solid but hes no Seymour). Its not like Samuel got payed (with the eagles) how stupid of them to pay him like a pro-bowl corner, We got rid of Seymour supposedly to open up money for Wilfork who has yet to get a long term deal done.

If you didn't want to have a real discussion you should have just said so from the beginning. I'm not going to argue with ridiculous exaggerations like Wilhite and Wright are replacements of Samuel and Seymour.

Samuel is overpaid, period end of story. There's no debating it. He never was and never will be a top 5 CB in the NFL. He's smart and racks up the money numbers (INTs - the bulk against bad QBs), but he's nowhere near worth what he is making.

We got rid of Seymour because we had no chance of keeping him and OAK offered a #1 pick, not to "free" up money. Seymour was already PAID though, we EXTENDED him in the past. It's not as if he came, played out his rookie contract and was exposed of. He reached the end of his Patriots career, get over it.

You CANNOT sign probowlers at every position in the salary capped NFL. It's impossible. You can kvetch and whine about each probowler you wished they would have re-signed, but it doesn't change the fact that you HAVE to keep a budget and get value to field an entire roster, not just the top end of it.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

and the browns paid mcginist for his productive years here and look what it got them.

Sometimes players don't realize that they are just a good fit for a team and should just be happy with a fair and reasonable contract. It is quite possible had he stayed he would of had a couple more productive years with the team that he knows.

*** bingo! ***

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Reality is this team, with this coach and these owners are the team of the decade. That's all that really matters.

Furthermore, I wouldn't take another coach or owner going into the next decade.

How is that relevant, in any way, to my post, particularly given the subject matter of the O.P.?

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

If you didn't want to have a real discussion you should have just said so from the beginning. I'm not going to argue with ridiculous exaggerations like Wilhite and Wright are replacements of Samuel and Seymour.

Samuel is overpaid, period end of story. There's no debating it. He never was and never will be a top 5 CB in the NFL. He's smart and racks up the money numbers (INTs - the bulk against bad QBs), but he's nowhere near worth what he is making.

We got rid of Seymour because we had no chance of keeping him and OAK offered a #1 pick, not to "free" up money. Seymour was already PAID though, we EXTENDED him in the past. It's not as if he came, played out his rookie contract and was exposed of. He reached the end of his Patriots career, get over it.

You CANNOT sign probowlers at every position in the salary capped NFL. It's impossible. You can kvetch and whine about each probowler you wished they would have re-signed, but it doesn't change the fact that you HAVE to keep a budget and get value to field an entire roster, not just the top end of it.

Every player in the NFL is overpaid if you put it that way, Samuel is a top 5 CB. Seymour I can understand getting rid of but if Wilfork isnt resigned I dont get the move. You cannot tell me that the contract situation did not play a part in dealing Sey. Nobody is asking to sign every pro-bowler but we can keep the ones we've developed, the Colts have kept their pro-bowlers so can we but we chose not to. We overpay players like

 

[emoney_33]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Every player in the NFL is overpaid if you put it that way, Samuel is a top 5 CB.

He's not, he never was and he never will be. He's good no doubt, and the Patriots offered him a fair deal.

Seymour I can understand getting rid of but if Wilfork isnt resigned I dont get the move.

Wilfork being re-signed is definitely priority #1 IMHO. However it's not like if he doesn't get re-signed, that they traded Seymour knowing they would not re-sign Wilfork. Also note that Seymour will make a king's ransom and will NOT live up to his next contract. This you can bank on it. The patriots are very good (not perfect) at evaluating players and placing good value on them for now and the duration of their contract. They try not to put themselves in a position where a player's contract will be a big burden 3 or 4 years down the line.

You cannot tell me that the contract situation did not play a part in dealing Sey.

Nor will I try to, him being in the last year of his contract absolutely played a big factor.

Nobody is asking to sign every pro-bowler but we can keep the ones we've developed, the Colts have kept their pro-bowlers so can we but we chose not to. We overpay players like

Exactly who would you have overpaid for? It doesn't make sense to argue that we should have kept "our" pro-bowlers. They aren't "ours" just because we drafted them.

We attempted to keep Samuel, the eagles overvalued him, such is life.

We DID keep Seymour... for 9 years! He got a raise in 2005 and a 3 year $30M deal in 2006. We got the best years out of him for good money. He will NOT be worth his next contract. It's BAD business and philosophy to overpay for players based on PAST performance. You pay for the probability of the expected level of current and future performance.

We could have kept Milloy, Law, McGinest, Vrabel, Woody, etc... But then we'd have the bulk of the cap vested in the top 15-20% of the roster without money to field a good middle and end roster. We would then be playing for high pick in the draft rather than being a competitive team.

Let's stick to our fandom and let the people who know what they are doing stick to the business aspect. They have proven their model works by being the team of the decade. They have proven their abilities to judge and value players as evidenced by not a single player they let go outplaying their contracts, yet there have been many players that play above their contracts here.

 

[fgssand]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

How is that relevant, in any way, to my post, particularly given the subject matter of the O.P.?

Perhaps I should have added, top 5 or top 10 salary cap position - we are the team of the decade.

And also, since we do pay out as much as we do - most players are indeed getting taken care of,

 

[capetide]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

I think Asante has been a big loss....look at his year last year for the Eagles,He was definately missed the past 2 years.

I wish someone who had the knowledge and time could go back and plug Asante's contract frm the Eagles in to the Pats' payroll and see how many of our favorite mid-level roster players would have to be cut to have kept him.

BTW He was a good player for us but I think that people are only remembering Asante's positive plays now that he's gone.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Perhaps I should have added, top 5 or top 10 salary cap position - we are the team of the decade.

And also, since we do pay out as much as we do - most players are indeed getting taken care of,

Don't waste your breath. Deus doesn't respect the business model anymore since Seymour was traded and he decided that not winning every year equates to epic fail.

Bob Kraft spent plenty taking care of his players that are still productive, including building them revenue enhancing, privately paid for state of the art facility that doesn't lock the cafeteria in the offseason...while they were still a ringless wannabe operating in a region where that was the only way they were going to get one. BB always protects his players and deflects blame to the team and himself and his staff. Because he is secure in his own beliefs and has the courage of his convictions. And while he doesn't blow smoke up your skirt to fluff your ego, he also won't respond to ego driven blathering like this. Something perpetually insecure players tend to underappreciate until they land somewhere where playing the self preservation blame game, the second most popular activity in the NFL, has also been elevated to a management art form.

Players want to share the wealth, not the responsibility inherent in generating it. Just like they all want to win only they struggle to be accountable when they don't. A lot more goes into taking care of players that are still productive than overpaying them. This team has performed well enough in this decade that it's players who still equate overpaying with caring can easily find someone else to do that. Willie had no trouble lining up a 3 year deal to underachieve for a moribund franchise with the highest in-house infection rate in the league headed up by a guy stroked Willie's ego by professing he had something left to offer (when he didn't). He (not to mention that coach) owe BB for even putting him in position to choose to do that...

Willie's just pissed because no one, including Bill, came calling after he finished cashing Lerner's checks...and after three years of doing that he's not even on the A list of former athletes turned media pundit any more. Maybe sharpening his knives in Bill and Bob's backs will elevate his media profile... He's lucky you can get away with that here because these guys, and Bill in particular, know what makes players tick and they chalk this malcontent bs up to how hard it is for some of them to lose their stage and the swagger it fostered and be faced with the reality that when they look in the mirror the reflection now staring back at them is suddenly just another guy who used to play football for a dynasty.

The NFL needs someone like the Ghost Whisperer to help these poor tortured bastids cross over into the light peacefully once they pass on, whether it be to another franchise or the dreaded life after football...

 

[hawk]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

This is a common complaint from older players. The Patriots stayed with the veterans too long, had to play too many inexperienced players in 2009, and heard about a leadership crisis all year. The same thing happened to Dallas when they stayed with (and overpaid) with Aikman, Smith and Irvin. If Willie McGinest could still be productive for the Patriots at a reasonable price, he'd still be a Patriot. I'd love to see Bruschi, Harrison and McGinest in their prime in a Patriot's uniform, but the only way that will happen is to look at video from the glory years.

 

[Clonamery]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Don't waste your breath. Deus doesn't respect the business model anymore since Seymour was traded and he decided that not winning every year equates to epic fail.

Bob Kraft spent plenty taking care of his players that are still productive, including building them revenue enhancing, privately paid for state of the art facility that doesn't lock the cafeteria in the offseason...while they were still a ringless wannabe operating in a region where that was the only way they were going to get one. BB always protects his players and deflects blame to the team and himself and his staff. Because he is secure in his own beliefs and has the courage of his convictions. And while he doesn't blow smoke up your skirt to fluff your ego, he also won't respond to ego driven blathering like this. Something perpetually insecure players tend to underappreciate until they land somewhere where playing the self preservation blame game, the second most popular activity in the NFL, has also been elevated to a management art form.

Players want to share the wealth, not the responsibility inherent in generating it. Just like they all want to win only they struggle to be accountable when they don't. A lot more goes into taking care of players that are still productive than overpaying them. This team has performed well enough in this decade that it's players who still equate overpaying with caring can easily find someone else to do that. Willie had no trouble lining up a 3 year deal to underachieve for a moribund franchise with the highest in-house infection rate in the league headed up by a guy stroked Willie's ego by professing he had something left to offer (when he didn't). He (not to mention that coach) owe BB for even putting him in position to choose to do that...

Willie's just pissed because no one, including Bill, came calling after he finished cashing Lerner's checks...and after three years of doing that he's not even on the A list of former athletes turned media pundit any more. Maybe sharpening his knives in Bill and Bob's backs will elevate his media profile... He's lucky you can get away with that here because these guys, and Bill in particular, know what makes players tick and they chalk this malcontent bs up to how hard it is for some of them to lose their stage and the swagger it fostered and be faced with the reality that when they look in the mirror the reflection now staring back at them is suddenly just another guy who used to play football for a dynasty.

The NFL needs someone like the Ghost Whisperer to help these poor tortured bastids cross over into the light peacefully once they pass on, whether it be to another franchise or the dreaded life after football...

Quiet strength, Willie. Quiet strength.

 

[PugBrady]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Clearly, Willie is still bitter about his own situation when he felt he was still productive but had to go to Cleveland. I don't think it's applicable to any other players. I'm sure we wouldn't be hearing this from him had he retired a patriot.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

Don't waste your breath. Deus doesn't respect the business model anymore since Seymour was traded and he decided that not winning every year equates to epic fail.

The trouble with this load of gibberish is that I have no problem with the business model, and have said so on numerous occasions. As is your wont, you've confused impartial observation with biased opinion. Unlike yourself, I'm not so locked into being a Stepford fan that I can't see all sides of an issue.

The reality is that a top 5 club in revenue was only #10 in salary in a study that took the numbers from 2004-2008. Whether you like it or not, that can fairly be seen as an issue by fans, the media and players, particularly when you're talking about spending $150 million dollars less from 2004-2008 than the very top team. That doesn't bother me, but those whom it does can make fair points.

You can piss all you want about those who dare to disagree with the "system", but those in disagreement have increased in number over the recent years. Perhaps if the team had won a Super Bowl (You know, that thing you so flippantly minimize) following the salary cap's rapid rise due to the CBA, the "system" would be looking better in the eyes of observers. It didn't, however, and there's a legitimate debate to be had as to why the team isn't taking more advantage of it's financially superior position.

Also, and again, I was criticizing Belichick's moves last season well before the Seymour deal, so you can stop with that nonsense while you're at it. The Seymour trade was just one of many Belichick screw ups from last year.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: McGinest: "Pats don't take care of thier players that are still productive"

You are wrong, you've been wrong, and you ignore people who try to enlighten you. Shutup with your agenda driven repetitively contrarian argumentative bull****, thanks

I wouldn't hesitate to call out Deus if I thought he was spouting BS - but that's not the case here.

The Patriots aren't the highest spending team, and they most certainly are not the cheapest. They try to spend money wisely. That means they tend not to overpay, and sometimes that means they may have been pennywise and pound foolish in hindsight.

The "they spend to the cap" argument doesn't come close to capturing the complexities of the NFL salary structure, nor does a snapshot of what a team spent in a given year in bonus money, due to be stretched out over the course of a contract.