McGinest: "Pats don't take care of their players that are still productive"

[emoney_33]

When did I ever say INT are the barometer of CBs? They aren't. In fact, guys like Revis and Nnamdi tend to have lower INT numbers because people don't like to throw at them. The only reason I brought up INT is b/c I'm sick and tired of hearing you say over and over how Samuel's INT came from bad QBs. So what? So did most of Bodden's. The fact is Samuel had 9 in total and Bodden had 5 in total, so if you want to look at INT, then Samuel outperformed him.

Samuel is valuable because of his interceptions. He is not a cover corner. Teams don't shy away from him. He doesn't have a high success rate of completions against. His value lies in the fact that he jumps routes and creates turnovers. Because of this it is more useful to recognize his inflated INT numbers due to bad QBs. Bodden 2009 > Samuel 2009.

Let's see: Hall, Flowers, Winfield, Greer, DRC, Joseph are all ranked #3, #5, #9, #7, #4, and #6 respectively on that website. Seems likes someone just took a few a names from the top of that list and claimed they were better than Samuel. Why didn't you mention a guy like Jammer who is a great press corner and great in run support? Because he's not at the top of that list? I highly doubt you've watched all of these guys enough to be able to definitively state that they are/aren't better than Samuel. That site is flawed because there is not a chance Leon Hall is the 3rd best CB in the league. Watch him play before claiming you'd rather have him than Samuel.

I threw out a quick handful of guys that played better than Samuel in 2009. I would rather have a lot of guys over Samuel. You are the one that keeps going back to the overall rankings number of that site, not I. I have already stated that their formula for overall rankings is probably flawed, especially since it can't depict how good a guy like Asomugha played.

If Hobbs outperformed Samuel frequently when he was here, why was he dealt for a 5th round pick? Surely you should attempt to lock up and keep a CB who has outplayed Samuel (a Pro Bowler) longterm. Or at the least you could get a 2nd round pick for someone of that caliber. Also, why was he behind Samuel on the depth chart in Philly? If he was better than Samuel, he'd be starting ahead of him and wouldn't be relegated to nickel and dime back duties.

I said he frequently outplayed Samuel, I didn't say he was better overall than Samuel. Samuel made a jump in 06/07, whereas Hobbs health started to come into question as he seemingly regressed.

Moss is not THE best WR in the league. He is still top 5, but he is not THE best like you claim he is.

Look at the numbers, look at the pass defense schedule, look at the fact he played with a separated should, look at the OL shakiness, look at the fact Brady was coming back from ACL etc... He still put up top 3 numbers. Just sit back and enjoy the inevitable show in 2010.

How was Bodden a better CB than Samuel in 09? What are you basing that off of? I assume you are basing it off of the stats from that website, unless you've watched all of the Eagles games and all of the Patriots games, which I highly doubt. Bodden had a solid season in 09, but I would take Asante over him anyday. Samuel is also a 3x Pro Bowler (including 09). Bodden has never been to one. What does that possibly say about their play in 09? And don't blame it on the fans, as the players and coaches account for 2/3 of the vote.

Yes I am basing it off the peripheral numbers of that website as well as the styles of play each allow. Bodden is better in man coverage, he allowed less yardage, less comp %, less YAC, and less big plays.

Asante limits defensive schemes? He is only a zone hawk? He isn't a good cover corner? Really? Then why would the Eagles sign him?

I do not work for the Eagles, my only guess is they overvalued him and now realize their mistake.

But since the Seahawks gave a 1st round pick and overpaid for Branch, does that mean he's a great receiver?

Jim Johnson was known for blitzing schemes and often left his CB's in man to man coverage on islands. If you watch the Eagles play, they still often line up in man to man coverage and don't give their corners a ton of safety help. Why would they sign Asante if he could not play in this type of defense? In his 2 seasons in Philly, he has made the Pro Bowl twice.

Are you claiming that Asante is playing man-0 coverage frequently?

If you believe Asante was worth his contract, that's your opinion. I don't think he is and I don't think he's a top 5 CB. I don't think Bodden is a top-5 CB either. I simply think he played better than Samuel in 2009 and would RATHER have the type of CB that Bodden is vs. Samuel because Samuel's risks allow for BIG yardage plays.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Samuel is valuable because of his interceptions. He is not a cover corner. Teams don't shy away from him. He doesn't have a high success rate of completions against. His value lies in the fact that he jumps routes and creates turnovers. Because of this it is more useful to recognize his inflated INT numbers due to bad QBs. Bodden 2009 > Samuel 2009.

I threw out a quick handful of guys that played better than Samuel in 2009. I would rather have a lot of guys over Samuel. You are the one that keeps going back to the overall rankings number of that site, not I. I have already stated that their formula for overall rankings is probably flawed, especially since it can't depict how good a guy like Asomugha played.

I said he frequently outplayed Samuel, I didn't say he was better overall than Samuel. Samuel made a jump in 06/07, whereas Hobbs health started to come into question as he seemingly regressed.

Look at the numbers, look at the pass defense schedule, look at the fact he played with a separated should, look at the OL shakiness, look at the fact Brady was coming back from ACL etc... He still put up top 3 numbers. Just sit back and enjoy the inevitable show in 2010.

Yes I am basing it off the peripheral numbers of that website as well as the styles of play each allow. Bodden is better in man coverage, he allowed less yardage, less comp %, less YAC, and less big plays.

I do not work for the Eagles, my only guess is they overvalued him and now realize their mistake.

But since the Seahawks gave a 1st round pick and overpaid for Branch, does that mean he's a great receiver?

Are you claiming that Asante is playing man-0 coverage frequently?

If you believe Asante was worth his contract, that's your opinion. I don't think he is and I don't think he's a top 5 CB. I don't think Bodden is a top-5 CB either. I simply think he played better than Samuel in 2009 and would RATHER have the type of CB that Bodden is vs. Samuel because Samuel's risks allow for BIG yardage plays.

I do not believe Samuel is a "shutdown" corner. I think there are really on two guys deserving of that title, Nnamdi and Revis. Bailey, Woodson, and Harris (a few years ago) could be considered close to that level too. Regardless, I think Samuel is worthy of being talked about as a top 5 or top 10 CB, and I'd still take Samuel over Bodden anyday. I was not overly impressed with Bodden this season. He was solid but nothing great IMO, and I would rather have Samuel at 9 million per than Bodden at around 7-8 million per.

I keep going back to that website b/c you keep bringing up the stats from that website, and are using that website alone to declare that guys like Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, DRC, etc. had better seasons than Samuel. Stats, especially in football, do not tell the whole story. Unless you have watched all of those guys numerous times this past season, I don't know how you can say they all performed better than Samuel. You simply can't, so you are basing your statements off of a statistics from a website that we have both stated is flawed. Unlike you, I will not evaluate a certain player's season solely based on stats from a website.


When I look at the schedule, I honestly don't see that many tough defenses. We played the Jets twice and like some other elite WR Randy did next to nothing both times. Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Buffalo, Tennessee, Atlanta, Houston were all subpar defenses IMO. Denver, Carolina, Indy, N.O., were all mediocre defenses. The Jets were very good, Baltimore was pretty good, and Denver was rolling when we played them. Those are really the only 3 defenses I see as being "tough," regardless of what the statistics say. I don't feel that Moss is the best WR in the game anymore, obviously you do. I think he will take a step back in 2010, just my opinion. I hope I am wrong and you are right.

I did never made the connection between the Eagles giving him a lucrative contract and him being a great corner, so the Branch-1st round pick analogy doesn't apply or make sense. I feel that Asante is more worth 9 million than Bodden is the 7-8 million that people are projecting he will be seeking. I also don't think the Eagles overvalued him, I think they felt he was a good fit in their defense because of his ballhawking abilities and their blitzing defensive scheme.

Over the years I've always been very intrigued by Jim Johnson's defense. I loved his defensive scheme, and wish the Pats defense played more like his. Therefore, I have watched a decent number of Eagles games and have done some reading up on Jim Johnson's scheme. It is a variant of the 46 defense and quite similar to the Jets and Ravens defense, where safeties are used a lot in the blitzing attack. Although Johnson was known to zone blitz at times, he also did a lot of man blitzing, having his corners press at the line and often only having one safety deep playing centerfield, similar to what Ed Reed does with the Ravens. McDermott has continued to use the scheme he learned from Johnson, and although Samuel is a little reluctant to get up and press at the line, he often is in man to man with one safety playing centerfield. You said that Samuel limits schemes, but he hasn't limited the schemes that the Eagles run and has made the Pro Bowl in both of his years there. You only think Asante is a zone-hawk. I think Asante is a great zone hawk and a great cover corner who is prone to being over-aggressive at times. He is not a good press corner, but IMO he is very good at staying with his man. His only vice (besides not being great at jamming guys at the line) is his risk taking (which I like), which is a bit more visible in Philly's scheme b/c it is more aggressive than ours and likes to blitz the safeties more than we do. I personally do not think Asante limits schemes, as he has come into Philly without forcing the defensive scheme to be change, and posted back to back Pro Bowl seasons.

A good read on Johnson's defense:

Defensive Philosophies

Enter Steve Spaguolo. Spagnuolo spent nine years as an Eagle defensive coach under Jim Johnson. Johnson’s defense is basically a variant of the famed "46 defense," developed by former Bear DC and Eagle HC Buddy Ryan. The 46 is primarily a run stop attack defense. It requires press man-to-man coverage by the corners and one safety playing within " the box," or up close to the line of scrimmage. In a pure "Bear" defense, the SS will play the "46" position, directly over the LOT. The RDE flexes to outside of the LOT; the WLB moves to the strong side, over the tight end, and the MLB shades to the strong side of the right (strong side) offensive guard. The strong side DT shades the RG’s right shoulder; while the weak side DT plays straight up on the center as a "zero technique" nose tackle, shading the center slightly, left eye to left eye. In a modified 46, the SS plays over the TE, while the WLB stays weak side, but still within the tackle, with a flexed out DE. In either system, the SS, WLB, and MLB will flip about on passing downs, showing blitz from a variety of directions. The main purpose of these allignments is to confuse the offensive line’s blocking assignments, allowing the defensive linemen free shots at the quarterback.

As previously stated, the Jim Johnson Eagle defense is a variant of the 46 defense. More correctly, it is a variant of a" modified 46." In the Eagle defense, the WLB generally remains weak side while either one of the two safeties moves up close to the line. Johnson pretty much uses his two safeties interchangeably, regardless of designation. Brian Dawkins, listed as the Eagle FS, is the controlling factor in the Eagle defense and can be found anywhere on the field.

A good read on all of the different offensive and defensive schemes in the NFL, team by team:

ESPN - Breaking down the schemes that make the teams

Defensive scheme: Typically, the Eagles prefer quick one-gap linemen and active linebackers, and the current group probably is the team's most athletic front seven in years. But this still is a blitz-crazed defense, with coordinator Jim Johnson frequently bringing pressure from up and down the line. Behind the blitzes, the Eagles play a lot of man coverage and press schemes. Johnson asks that his defensive backs jam and get physical with receivers at the line. Philadelphia may break form and show some 3-4 looks to create confusion, but this unit still is primarily a 4-3 defense.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I do not believe Samuel is a "shutdown" corner. I think there are really on two guys deserving of that title, Nnamdi and Revis. Bailey, Woodson, and Harris (a few years ago) could be considered close to that level too. Regardless, I think Samuel is worthy of being talked about as a top 5 or top 10 CB, and I'd still take Samuel over Bodden anyday. I was not overly impressed with Bodden this season. He was solid but nothing great IMO, and I would rather have Samuel at 9 million per than Bodden at around 7-8 million per.

I keep going back to that website b/c you keep bringing up the stats from that website, and are using that website alone to declare that guys like Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, DRC, etc. had better seasons than Samuel. Stats, especially in football, do not tell the whole story. Unless you have watched all of those guys numerous times this past season, I don't know how you can say they all performed better than Samuel. You simply can't, so you are basing your statements off of a statistics from a website that we have both stated is flawed. Unlike you, I will not evaluate a certain player's season solely based on stats from a website.


When I look at the schedule, I honestly don't see that many tough defenses. We played the Jets twice and like some other elite WR Randy did next to nothing both times. Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Buffalo, Tennessee, Atlanta, Houston were all subpar defenses IMO. Denver, Carolina, Indy, N.O., were all mediocre defenses. The Jets were very good, Baltimore was pretty good, and Denver was rolling when we played them. Those are really the only 3 defenses I see as being "tough," regardless of what the statistics say. I don't feel that Moss is the best WR in the game anymore, obviously you do. I think he will take a step back in 2010, just my opinion. I hope I am wrong and you are right.

I did never made the connection between the Eagles giving him a lucrative contract and him being a great corner, so the Branch-1st round pick analogy doesn't apply or make sense. I feel that Asante is more worth 9 million than Bodden is the 7-8 million that people are projecting he will be seeking. I also don't think the Eagles overvalued him, I think they felt he was a good fit in their defense because of his ballhawking abilities and their blitzing defensive scheme.

Over the years I've always been very intrigued by Jim Johnson's defense. I loved his defensive scheme, and wish the Pats defense played more like his. Therefore, I have watched a decent number of Eagles games and have done some reading up on Jim Johnson's scheme. It is a variant of the 46 defense and quite similar to the Jets and Ravens defense, where safeties are used a lot in the blitzing attack. Although Johnson was known to zone blitz at times, he also did a lot of man blitzing, having his corners press at the line and often only having one safety deep playing centerfield, similar to what Ed Reed does with the Ravens. McDermott has continued to use the scheme he learned from Johnson, and although Samuel is a little reluctant to get up and press at the line, he often is in man to man with one safety playing centerfield. You said that Samuel limits schemes, but he hasn't limited the schemes that the Eagles run and has made the Pro Bowl in both of his years there. You only think Asante is a zone-hawk. I think Asante is a great zone hawk and a great cover corner who is prone to being over-aggressive at times. He is not a good press corner, but IMO he is very good at staying with his man. His only vice (besides not being great at jamming guys at the line) is his risk taking (which I like), which is a bit more visible in Philly's scheme b/c it is more aggressive than ours and likes to blitz the safeties more than we do. I personally do not think Asante limits schemes, as he has come into Philly without forcing the defensive scheme to be change, and posted back to back Pro Bowl seasons.

A good read on Johnson's defense:

Defensive Philosophies




A good read on all of the different offensive and defensive schemes in the NFL, team by team:

ESPN - Breaking down the schemes that make the teams

Yup, this is a great read about what the late Jim Johnson was able to do in the past with Brian Dawkins running his secondary. Never quite won them a ring, although it got real close once. Offense let them down. Neither are with the Eagles any longer. But they've got Asante now. Still not winning any rings. They now have issues on offense AND defense. Go figure. Maybe a couple of more picks wasn't really what they needed.

 

[emoney_33]

I do not believe Samuel is a "shutdown" corner. I think there are really on two guys deserving of that title, Nnamdi and Revis. Bailey, Woodson, and Harris (a few years ago) could be considered close to that level too. Regardless, I think Samuel is worthy of being talked about as a top 5 or top 10 CB, and I'd still take Samuel over Bodden anyday. I was not overly impressed with Bodden this season. He was solid but nothing great IMO, and I would rather have Samuel at 9 million per than Bodden at around 7-8 million per.

Samuel isn't even a very good cover corner. I also never advocated spending 8M per year on Bodden. There are not many corners that are worth that much to begin with.

I keep going back to that website b/c you keep bringing up the stats from that website, and are using that website alone to declare that guys like Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, DRC, etc. had better seasons than Samuel. Stats, especially in football, do not tell the whole story. Unless you have watched all of those guys numerous times this past season, I don't know how you can say they all performed better than Samuel. You simply can't, so you are basing your statements off of a statistics from a website that we have both stated is flawed. Unlike you, I will not evaluate a certain player's season solely based on stats from a website.

So, how do you come to your conclusion that Samuel was a top 5 CB in 2009? This should be good.

When I look at the schedule, I honestly don't see that many tough defenses. We played the Jets twice and like some other elite WR Randy did next to nothing both times. Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Buffalo, Tennessee, Atlanta, Houston were all subpar defenses IMO. Denver, Carolina, Indy, N.O., were all mediocre defenses. The Jets were very good, Baltimore was pretty good, and Denver was rolling when we played them. Those are really the only 3 defenses I see as being "tough," regardless of what the statistics say. I don't feel that Moss is the best WR in the game anymore, obviously you do. I think he will take a step back in 2010, just my opinion. I hope I am wrong and you are right.

We had a tough PASS DEFENSE schedule. We played a top 10 pass defense something like 10 times. According to football outsiders it was the toughest pass defense schedule in the last 17 years. I can all but guarantee you the only way Moss takes a step back next year is if he has a big injury. He played most of the year with a separated shoulder, a QB coming back from ACL year off, a shaky OL, 2 WR on the entire depth chart worth anything, inexperienced "OC", and a difficult PASS DEFENSE schedule and still put up top 3 WR numbers. All of those factors are likely to be improved in 2010, and of course everyone is going to wrongly attribute the great year to "contract year".

I did never made the connection between the Eagles giving him a lucrative contract and him being a great corner, so the Branch-1st round pick analogy doesn't apply or make sense. I feel that Asante is more worth 9 million than Bodden is the 7-8 million that people are projecting he will be seeking. I also don't think the Eagles overvalued him, I think they felt he was a good fit in their defense because of his ballhawking abilities and their blitzing defensive scheme.

Asante limits defensive schemes? He is only a zone hawk? He isn't a good cover corner? Really? Then why would the Eagles sign him?

You inferred that because the Eagles signed him that means he must be a good cover corner.

Over the years I've always been very intrigued by Jim Johnson's defense. I loved his defensive scheme, and wish the Pats defense played more like his. Therefore, I have watched a decent number of Eagles games and have done some reading up on Jim Johnson's scheme. It is a variant of the 46 defense and quite similar to the Jets and Ravens defense, where safeties are used a lot in the blitzing attack. Although Johnson was known to zone blitz at times, he also did a lot of man blitzing, having his corners press at the line and often only having one safety deep playing centerfield, similar to what Ed Reed does with the Ravens. McDermott has continued to use the scheme he learned from Johnson, and although Samuel is a little reluctant to get up and press at the line, he often is in man to man with one safety playing centerfield. You said that Samuel limits schemes, but he hasn't limited the schemes that the Eagles run and has made the Pro Bowl in both of his years there. You only think Asante is a zone-hawk. I think Asante is a great zone hawk and a great cover corner who is prone to being over-aggressive at times. He is not a good press corner, but IMO he is very good at staying with his man. His only vice (besides not being great at jamming guys at the line) is his risk taking (which I like), which is a bit more visible in Philly's scheme b/c it is more aggressive than ours and likes to blitz the safeties more than we do. I personally do not think Asante limits schemes, as he has come into Philly without forcing the defensive scheme to be change, and posted back to back Pro Bowl seasons.

A good read on Johnson's defense:

Defensive Philosophies




A good read on all of the different offensive and defensive schemes in the NFL, team by team:

ESPN - Breaking down the schemes that make the teams

Definitely great reads, but none of them make Samuel a great cover corner. He is very valuable generating turnovers when there is a good consistent pass rush. He frequently allows receptions, (and led the league in YAC according to the site you hate). The Eagles pass defense wasn't spectacular this year, and for a team with a "great" cover corner, allowing 61% completions in 2009 seems a bit high, no?

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Samuel isn't even a very good cover corner. I also never advocated spending 8M per year on Bodden. There are not many corners that are worth that much to begin with.



So, how do you come to your conclusion that Samuel was a top 5 CB in 2009? This should be good.



We had a tough PASS DEFENSE schedule. We played a top 10 pass defense something like 10 times. According to football outsiders it was the toughest pass defense schedule in the last 17 years. I can all but guarantee you the only way Moss takes a step back next year is if he has a big injury. He played most of the year with a separated shoulder, a QB coming back from ACL year off, a shaky OL, 2 WR on the entire depth chart worth anything, inexperienced "OC", and a difficult PASS DEFENSE schedule and still put up top 3 WR numbers. All of those factors are likely to be improved in 2010, and of course everyone is going to wrongly attribute the great year to "contract year".





You inferred that because the Eagles signed him that means he must be a good cover corner.



Definitely great reads, but none of them make Samuel a great cover corner. He is very valuable generating turnovers when there is a good consistent pass rush. He frequently allows receptions, (and led the league in YAC according to the site you hate). The Eagles pass defense wasn't spectacular this year, and for a team with a "great" cover corner, allowing 61% completions in 2009 seems a bit high, no?

I never said Samuel was a top 5 CB in 09 and never inferred that b/c the Eagles signed him he was a good cover corner. I said why would they sign him if they didn't think he was a good fit? Obviously they felt he was a good fit if they signed him.

Those reads are not to show Samuel is a great cover corner. It's to show the scheme Jim Johnson and his crew liked to run. You claimed that Asante limited schemes b/c he was only a zone hawk and Bodden was better b/c he could play man to man while Samuel really could not. The Eagles are known for playing a lot of man coverage and bringing a lot of guys on blitzes, and time and time again I have seen Samuel excel in man coverage in Philly. The Eagles have not had to change their scheme for Samuel. He's come in and had back to back Pro Bowl years for them without limiting the types of schemes they run.

I feel Samuel is a top 10 CB in the league. I don't know if he performed up to that level this year, but I admittedly didn't see every Eagles game. Again, I will not use those stats to declare if he was/wasn't a top 10 CB. According to that site Asomugha's completion % was 75%. Does that mean he is not a good cover corner? Antoine Winfield, who you claimed a top 10 CB was at 63%. According to that site, Jammer is the #88 ranked CB and Cromartie is the #56 ranked CB based on overall rating. SD fans would strongly disagree with that. Cortland Finnegan is the 59th ranked CB in the league? Come on man you can't possibly use this site to state whether or not Samuel is a good cover corner or is top5 not top 5 or top 10 not top 10.

IMO, Samuel is a better cover corner than you are giving him credit for. I think he's a good man to man coverage corner. The only problem I have with Asante is his lack of physicality. It's been said and can be seen that he likes to play a bit off of his WR, reluctant to get up and play press coverage. Either way, I think Samuel is a better all around corner than Bodden, and is more worth the contract he got than the 6-7 million dollar contract Bodden is expected to be seeking at the age of 29. I've seen both play in NE, and I really don't even think it is close.

We will always disagree on Moss at this point in his career. I don't care what kind of numbers he put up, he was playing with Tom Brady. I'm sure a guy like Marshall (FOR EXAMPLE) would put up similar or better numbers with Brady instead of Orton as his QB. I don't think Moss is going to perform like the best WR in the league in 2010 and I don't think he will be. As I said, I hope you are 100% correct, but I don't think you will be. I'd love nothing more than for Randy to light the world on fire, I just don't see it happening.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Yup, this is a great read about what the late Jim Johnson was able to do in the past with Brian Dawkins running his secondary. Never quite won them a ring, although it got real close once. Offense let them down. Neither are with the Eagles any longer. But they've got Asante now. Still not winning any rings. They now have issues on offense AND defense. Go figure. Maybe a couple of more picks wasn't really what they needed.

Agreed. I had a great appreciation for Jim Johnson and he was my favorite defensive mind in football besides Belichick. I loved what he did with that Philly defense. I've always rooted for Philly due to my admiration for Jim Johnson, obviously not in the SB vs the Pats though

 

[chevss454]

IMO, Samuel is a better cover corner than you are giving him credit for. I think he's a good man to man coverage corner. The only problem I have with Asante is his lack of physicality. It's been said and can be seen that he likes to play a bit off of his WR, reluctant to get up and play press coverage. Either way, I think Samuel is a better all around corner than Bodden, and is more worth the contract he got than the 6-7 million dollar contract Bodden is expected to be seeking at the age of 29. I've seen both play in NE, and I really don't even think it is close.

No NFL team can afford to pay more than a few guys the $10mill/yr that Samuel is paid, and those few guys better be very, VERY impactful.

 

[muzz]

Willie needs to start looking at it like the business it is.
He's acting like the pats should pay every player what they want, regardless of what their future looks like to the team.

Why don't we just pay all of them all the $ they want so that they will be happy.........because we would have a LAME team that was in serious trouble financially, older, and with less capable backups.

Sure Willy, Adam,Asante, and now RANDY, Krafty will pay everyone what they want no problem, nothing bad can come of that GAMBLE.

Bah...get a clue ya jackass

 

[emoney_33]

Those reads are not to show Samuel is a great cover corner. It's to show the scheme Jim Johnson and his crew liked to run. You claimed that Asante limited schemes b/c he was only a zone hawk and Bodden was better b/c he could play man to man while Samuel really could not. The Eagles are known for playing a lot of man coverage and bringing a lot of guys on blitzes, and time and time again I have seen Samuel excel in man coverage in Philly. The Eagles have not had to change their scheme for Samuel. He's come in and had back to back Pro Bowl years for them without limiting the types of schemes they run.

I guess you are hung up on "zone". The Eagles blitz a lot, relying on pass rush to mitigate the risk of jumping routes. Just because Samuel fit their desire for risk-reward aggressive style doesn't mean Samuel is a great overall corner. Pro Bowl voting does not indicate objective analysis. He was not worthy of it in 2009. Samuel does not fit the Patriots and I'd much rather a player like Bodden for the Patriots system. It doesn't mean Samuel is bad, or that he has no value, or that Bodden is a top 5 CB. Bodden had a better 2009 season and I prefer his style/abilities over Samuel's for the Patriots defense.

I feel Samuel is a top 10 CB in the league. I don't know if he performed up to that level this year, but I admittedly didn't see every Eagles game. Again, I will not use those stats to declare if he was/wasn't a top 10 CB. According to that site Asomugha's completion % was 75%. Does that mean he is not a good cover corner? Antoine Winfield, who you claimed a top 10 CB was at 63%. According to that site, Jammer is the #88 ranked CB and Cromartie is the #56 ranked CB based on overall rating. SD fans would strongly disagree with that. Cortland Finnegan is the 59th ranked CB in the league? Come on man you can't possibly use this site to state whether or not Samuel is a good cover corner or is top5 not top 5 or top 10 not top 10.

This is the type of "stats are evil" analysis I don't get. You use Asomugha's caught rate number while knowingly ignoring the miniscule number of times he was thrown to. No stat alone is perfect and they all work together showing bits of information that can help analyze effectively on a higher level. Samuel was thrown at signficantly more than Asomugha. Yes I know Asomugha is awesome and teams don't throw his way in general. I understand that caught rate alone isn't the be-all end-all analysis of DB play.

And once again you go back to the overall rating numbers of which I have largely ignored because I do not know how they are calculated.

IMO, Samuel is a better cover corner than you are giving him credit for. I think he's a good man to man coverage corner. The only problem I have with Asante is his lack of physicality. It's been said and can be seen that he likes to play a bit off of his WR, reluctant to get up and play press coverage. Either way, I think Samuel is a better all around corner than Bodden, and is more worth the contract he got than the 6-7 million dollar contract Bodden is expected to be seeking at the age of 29. I've seen both play in NE, and I really don't even think it is close.

Samuel likes to play the QB more than the WR, would you agree with that? Maybe I overstated things and made it seem like he was atrocious except in zone, that was not my intention. I think over their careers Samuel has been better. Bodden was better in 2009. And I prefer Bodden's style/abilities over Samuel's for the Patriots style of defense.

Before I even checked the stats I had a good feeling about Bodden on the year. Bodden not only was consistently in a position to make the play, he rarely got beat deep, he had extremely solid tackling, and quick enough reaction to defend shorter passes while not biting too early before the QB committed. He has good technique and broke up more than a few passes. I was impressed with Bodden this season, and feel like he's absolutely worth $6-7M per year. Throughout Samuel's entire career here I was never as impressed with him. I never felt his INTs made up for the amount of completions and yardage his style allowed. Maybe in 2008 the Eagles were able to especially maximize his abilities and I don't give him his just due for it, but I still have never seen him as a top-5 CB.

 

[LiveShot]

Willie has his own selfish opinion. If any team took "care" of all their productive players would all be broke. Salary cap dumbass. I'm glad he's not in the Pats management. Players play and management sets the rules.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I guess you are hung up on "zone". The Eagles blitz a lot, relying on pass rush to mitigate the risk of jumping routes. Just because Samuel fit their desire for risk-reward aggressive style doesn't mean Samuel is a great overall corner. Pro Bowl voting does not indicate objective analysis. He was not worthy of it in 2009. Samuel does not fit the Patriots and I'd much rather a player like Bodden for the Patriots system. It doesn't mean Samuel is bad, or that he has no value, or that Bodden is a top 5 CB. Bodden had a better 2009 season and I prefer his style/abilities over Samuel's for the Patriots defense.



This is the type of "stats are evil" analysis I don't get. You use Asomugha's caught rate number while knowingly ignoring the miniscule number of times he was thrown to. No stat alone is perfect and they all work together showing bits of information that can help analyze effectively on a higher level. Samuel was thrown at signficantly more than Asomugha. Yes I know Asomugha is awesome and teams don't throw his way in general. I understand that caught rate alone isn't the be-all end-all analysis of DB play.

And once again you go back to the overall rating numbers of which I have largely ignored because I do not know how they are calculated.



Samuel likes to play the QB more than the WR, would you agree with that? Maybe I overstated things and made it seem like he was atrocious except in zone, that was not my intention. I think over their careers Samuel has been better. Bodden was better in 2009. And I prefer Bodden's style/abilities over Samuel's for the Patriots style of defense.

Before I even checked the stats I had a good feeling about Bodden on the year. Bodden not only was consistently in a position to make the play, he rarely got beat deep, he had extremely solid tackling, and quick enough reaction to defend shorter passes while not biting too early before the QB committed. He has good technique and broke up more than a few passes. I was impressed with Bodden this season, and feel like he's absolutely worth $6-7M per year. Throughout Samuel's entire career here I was never as impressed with him. I never felt his INTs made up for the amount of completions and yardage his style allowed. Maybe in 2008 the Eagles were able to especially maximize his abilities and I don't give him his just due for it, but I still have never seen him as a top-5 CB.

Let's just agree to disagree on Samuel vs Bodden. We have different views on their play in different aspects of their games. I would take Samuel, you would take Bodden. He's in Philly now and he's not coming back so it's moot to argue. Let's just look ahead to 2010 and hope make some good moves via FA/Trade/Draft to suit up for a Super Bowl run.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Willie has his own selfish opinion. If any team took "care" of all their productive players would all be broke. Salary cap dumbass. I'm glad he's not in the Pats management. Players play and management sets the rules.

Granted he is a fmr player who's perceived loyalty and contributions to the org were not rewarded to his satisfaction, but by all accounts Willie Mac is a very astute, shrewd businessman. If anyone, you would have assumed that he would be a little more non-emotional and level-headed with regard to player's salaries and the league's financial operating model.

 

[AJY the Jets troll]

Fact is that the Pats don't have the same aura they did 6 years ago.

It's not the destination it once was. Still among the best in the NFL but not as apart as it used to be.