Maybe we just cheated?

[Ring 6]

Let me tell you were I agree and disagree.

No one admitted anyone did it? Sure.
Text messages are the only sources of evidence? Again depends how you use evidence. The text messages are the only physical evidence IMO as I found the football highly inconclusive.
There is nothing else? Well depends if you count suspicious behavior and uncooperativeness

Then you go into guilty and prove... that is court of law standards. Not the ones the NFL uses. Going by court of law of course this has no legs.
Then you talk about if the balls were under lock and key and no one on the Patriots had access you'd have the same evidence. No. Then you could prove the Patriots could not get to the footballs making everything else completely meaningless. The Patriots had opportunity which without it makes everything else fall apart. If McNally did not go into the bathroom and provided no window to do anything the case is gone cause it can be illustrated nothing could have happen.

Opportunity does not equal guilt.

For the text messages to be evidence they would have to be evident of balls being deflated that day. They are not. There is not a single text that is clear. The text create a suspicion but that is not evidence. The texts, AS SUPPORTING DATA to real evidence would have value. You simply cannot find someone guilty under any standard because they wrote a text that requires interpretation and you choose to make up an interpretation that has no basis. The interpretation has become the evidence and that would be thrown out of any court with any standard of rules of evidence.
Just because the league adopted a preponderence of evidence standard doesn't mean they can define what evidence is.

Lets take it a step further. The Patriots accuse Peyton Manning of gambling on football games. They accuse him of throwing the SB vs Seattle. His poor play indicates suspicion. If you go through his phone, and the phones of all Bronco employees and find chatter that sounds like betting, you cannot interpret that chatter to mean he bet on the game unless it really says that. Would you ban Manning for life based on that type of evidence? Because that's what the penalty would be.

 

[bradyacolyte]

I think that we cheated for sure. I mean, it's really hard to ignore some of the stuff in the Wells Report. What sticks out to me the most are the text messages and "The Deflator" nickname. The team tried to cover this up the latter by claiming this referred to weight loss or whatever, which was just laughably absurd. There's a lot of very damning circumstantial evidence. I believe that this is the reason that Kraft is caving in.

Look, I know that not everything holds up and there is some questionable evidence, but come on. Some of us here are acting like this is the equivalent of the Salem Witch Trials. We brought this on ourselves. I love Brady and the Patriots, but I'm not blind. Some of the arguments I've read over the past week on this site remind me of creationists trying to defend the assertion that the earth is only 6,000 years old. You're not basing your conclusion on the evidence, you're contorting the evidence to fit your preconceived belief that Brady/Belichick are innocent.

I think we cheated though. I really do. And I will freely admit that, because at the end of the day, I don't think it matters. All teams cheat. Everyone in professional sports looks for competitive advantages. There's sign-stealing in baseball, there's flopping in basketball, there's (excessive) clinching in basketball, etc..

Look at how often we're compared to the 49ers dynasty (especially Montana/Brady and Belichick/Walsh). Bill Walsh was accused of manipulating headsets (see Bills Parcells' complaints); Jerry Rice admitted to spraying a foreign substance on his gloves; their owner, Eddie Debartolo, was accused to paying players under the table during the 1987 strike. If you dig deep enough, you'll find dirt on anyone.

I learned a long time ago that the national sports media is worthless. The media loves juicy, incriminating storylines, because it boosts ratings (which in turn leads to more advertising revenue). Deflategate is blown so far out of proportion that it's just ridiculous. It just reasserts my belief that the media is worthless. I don't let it get to me anymore (especially not trolls like Mike Florio). All of this applies to Spygate, too.

No matter what the media says, it does not diminish our accomplishments. Really, it doesn't. Just let it go. Slightly deflating balls isn't the reason we dismantled the Colts. Deflated balls aren't the reason Belichick is one of the most brilliant minds in the history of the game; deflated balls aren't the reason for Brady's poise or moxie; deflated balls aren't the reason we're a modern-day dynasty.

 

[Rhodey]

If the Patriots did commit conspiracy to deflate a football, since we know the balls weren't actually deflated by the IGL, there's no way it warrants all this. Especially considering teams are pumping in crowd noise, texting people on the field, etc.

Point. Isn't it ironic that the very same team (i.e. Colts) that set the table for all of this is one of the very same teams reaching for advantages outside the proverbial box (e.g. pumping fake noise). IMO, this whole fiasco is one of the worst cases of bad losers I have ever witnessed.

 

[Nunchucks]

There is no evidence that the Patriots did anything to those footballs. ZERO. There is no evidence of wrong doing.....Patriots cheated how? By using the forces of nature to deflate balls?

I just do not get this crap people keep saying. The Patriots did not cheat, the balls were fine. WTF is wrong with some of you people? Do you want to get arrested for stealing $100 if the money was never missing?

 

[bradyacolyte]

For the text messages to be evidence they would have to be evident of balls being deflated that day. They are not. There is not a single text that is clear. The text create a suspicion but that is not evidence. The texts, AS SUPPORTING DATA to real evidence would have value. You simply cannot find someone guilty under any standard because they wrote a text that requires interpretation and you choose to make up an interpretation that has no basis. The interpretation has become the evidence and that would be thrown out of any court with any standard of rules of evidence.
Just because the league adopted a preponderence of evidence standard doesn't mean they can define what evidence is.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

The text messages are circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence like that would not hold up in a court of law. There's no doubt at it. The Patriots would be found innocent for sure. There's reasonable doubt.

However, this isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. In this case, circumstantial evidence is enough. The obvious parallel that jumps to mind for me is Greg Hardy. His girlfriend dropped charges against him, but the NFL still suspended him. (Why? What was he guilty of? If his girlfriend didn't press charges, then there wasn't a crime, right?)

Kraft decided to wave a white flag yesterday. Why? Everyone is so quick to label him a coward because it fits the narrative that we're innocent. More likely, he knew that the evidence -- circumstantial or not -- was too damning, and that we weren't going to win.

 

[Nunchucks]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

The text messages are circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence like that would not hold up in a court of law. There's no doubt at it. The Patriots would be found innocent for sure. There's reasonable doubt.

However, this isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. In this case, circumstantial evidence is enough. The obvious parallel that jumps to mind for me is Greg Hardy. His girlfriend dropped charges against him, but the NFL still suspended him. (Why? What was he guilty of? If his girlfriend didn't press charges, then there wasn't a crime, right?)

Kraft decided to wave a white flag yesterday. Why? Everyone is so quick to label him a coward because it fits the narrative that we're innocent. More likely, he knew that the evidence -- circumstantial or not -- was too damning, and that we weren't going to win.

Wrong, Hardy was found guilty. He appealed and his girlfriend never showed up for the hearing. She was on "vacation."

Not comparable at all.

There was no evidence of a crime here, it is barely even circumstantial evidence.

 

[bradyacolyte]

There was no evidence of a crime here, it is barely even circumstantial evidence.

So you believe that "The Deflator" referred to someone losing weight?

 

[Nunchucks]

So you believe that "The Deflator" referred to someone losing weight?

I have no idea what it refers to. The evidence proves that nobody let air out of those game balls prior to the start of the AFC Championship game. You cannot argue with the facts.

Without a crime, the circumstantial evidence is meaningless.

 

[Tunescribe]

So you believe that "The Deflator" referred to someone losing weight?

It might mean that. It might mean he deflated new footballs out of the box to 12.5 before they were submitted pre-game to the referees. It might mean any number of things unrelated to league rule violations. In and of itself, it means absolutely nothing unless you're construing a frame job.

 

[Ring 6]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

The text messages are circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence like that would not hold up in a court of law. There's no doubt at it. The Patriots would be found innocent for sure. There's reasonable doubt.

However, this isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. In this case, circumstantial evidence is enough. The obvious parallel that jumps to mind for me is Greg Hardy. His girlfriend dropped charges against him, but the NFL still suspended him. (Why? What was he guilty of? If his girlfriend didn't press charges, then there wasn't a crime, right?)

Kraft decided to wave a white flag yesterday. Why? Everyone is so quick to label him a coward because it fits the narrative that we're innocent. More likely, he knew that the evidence -- circumstantial or not -- was too damning, and that we weren't going to win.

No, no, no.
Preponderance of evidence does not mean My Opinion. It does not mean the league can whimsically find whatever they want.
It is a standard of proof. Circumstantial evidence without corroboration is useless.

There was DIRECT EVIDENCE in the Hardy case. The only reason he was not found guilty twice was because his victim didn't show up. Huge difference.


Why would Kraft create a website to prove innocence but not appeal because he might lose?
What would he lose by appealing? Nothing at all. There is no way in the world that evidence could be called damning. Sure, appealing to Goodell may be a tough road to hoe, but give up? Why appeal, take your time, let Brady fight his case, and then after the courts totally exonerate him, have your appeal, starting with 'the court found we did nothing'.
There is no logic for Krafts actions other than his loyalties lying outside of what is best for the Patriots.

 

[Ring 6]

So you believe that "The Deflator" referred to someone losing weight?

That is what McNally and Jastremski said it means.
What evidence or testimony do you have to refute that?

If the standard of guilt is tell me a story and it I don't believe it that is evidence against you even if there is no other evidence, everyone is guilty of everything.

 

[NashuaPats]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

The text messages are circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence like that would not hold up in a court of law. There's no doubt at it. The Patriots would be found innocent for sure. There's reasonable doubt.

However, this isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. In this case, circumstantial evidence is enough. The obvious parallel that jumps to mind for me is Greg Hardy. His girlfriend dropped charges against him, but the NFL still suspended him. (Why? What was he guilty of? If his girlfriend didn't press charges, then there wasn't a crime, right?)

Kraft decided to wave a white flag yesterday. Why? Everyone is so quick to label him a coward because it fits the narrative that we're innocent. More likely, he knew that the evidence -- circumstantial or not -- was too damning, and that we weren't going to win.

Have you wondered why there was an investigation to begin with? The Colts measured the intercepted ball at 11.45. The average ball measured at 11.49 using the gauge the ref said he used. The IGL states the balls should have been a little under 11.5. So why was there an investigation? After that, everything is circumstantial interpretation.

I know Wells and Exponent determined the non logo gauge was probably used, but they didn't come up with that for weeks after the investigation began and it is based on an irrelevant premise.

There was no valid reason to believe the balls were tampered with in the first place. And why did the NFL leak false information to the press? Why did they lie to be Patriots about balls being 10.1 psi? Why did Jastremski text that the balls should have been 13 if they were deflating the balls?

 

[bradyacolyte]

It might mean that. It might mean he deflated new footballs out of the box to 12.5 before they were submitted pre-game to the referees. It might mean any number of things unrelated to league rule violations. In and of itself, it means absolutely nothing unless you're construing a frame job.

It's circumstantial evidence. We have a fact (his nickname was "The Deflator") and we draw a conclusion from it. We inference something, we fill in the blanks. That's what circumstantial evidence is. The doubts you're alluding to are things we'd hear a defense attorney say in a courtroom. This isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. The standards are different.

 

[Nunchucks]

It's circumstantial evidence. We have a fact (his nickname was "The Deflator") and we draw a conclusion from it. We inference something, we fill in the blanks. That's what circumstantial evidence is. The doubts you're alluding to are things we'd hear a defense attorney say in a courtroom. This isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. The standards are different.

But there is no evidence that he deflated footballs in the AFC Championship game. How can you build a case around a crime that didn't occur?

You have not addressed that very important point. Keep dancing around the fact that no crime was committed.

People can call you a murder, and say you killed Bob Kraft, but if he is walking around and on TV making lame proclamations, it would be foolish to try and convict you on that charge

 

[Tunescribe]

It's circumstantial evidence. We have a fact (his nickname was "The Deflator") and we draw a conclusion from it. We inference something, we fill in the blanks. That's what circumstantial evidence is. The doubts you're alluding to are things we'd hear a defense attorney say in a courtroom. This isn't a court of law, it's the NFL. The standards are different.

 

[bradyacolyte]

But there is no evidence that he deflated footballs in the AFC Championship game. How can you build a case around a crime that didn't occur?

You have not addressed that very important point. Keep dancing around the fact that no crime was committed.

Ultimately I don't really care. I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence (see: 400-page Wells Report) and I'm satisfied they did their due diligence. If you disagree with the report or think it's flawed, fine. That's your opinion.

As I said in my long post above, I think we cheated, but I just do not care. I don't think it matters. Believing we were guilty and being embarrassed/ashamed/angry about it are not mutually inclusive. It sucks that we lost draft picks and I hope that Brady isn't suspended (I think he'll get it overturned), but I don't think it affects our legacy or diminishes our accomplishments at all.

 

[Jackson 2]

This is what I believe above all else in this whole sordid mess: there are people on the Ravens and Colts staffs, beginning with Harbaby and ending with Grigson, who are laughing their asses off and saying, " We really got away with one there!". And they did.
That's who cheated.

 

[dliverey]

Why isn't anyone talking about 3 of the 4 Colts balls were under the limit at the end of the game? What we have here is a double standard. I hope Brady demands a trade and BB leaves also. I have been a pats fan since the early 80's and am absolutely sick by Kraft not fighting. I believe that I am going to take my fandom elsewhere.

I feel incredibly betrayed by Kraft, granted he does not know me nor cares what I think. It has always been a feel good story that he was a season ticket holder and then became the owner. He has done great things for the organization, but unless we find out there was a side deal made, I am unable to further support them and will just be a football fan.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...s-played-with-under-inflated-footballs/33495/