Matt Williamson: Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Williams

[Sciz]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Nnamdi Asomugha signed for $12M a year last offseason when he could've had at least 15. I see Mario being in a similar situation given his recent comments. That's not a ton of money at all if it makes the passing defense even average instead of bad.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Where would you upgrade, though? Nearly every defensive position is set. They need two pieces and depth on offense. Williams can play every position up front in either alignment except 0 (that's six out of seven possible) in addition to outside linebacker. He can also play all of those at an extremely high level, and a lot more economically than a lot of people seem to be imagining.

Excluding his freak torn pec, Williams missed three games out of eighty in his prior five seasons. He doesn't exactly strike me as injury prone.

I think there is a lot of room for upgrading the defense. The only DL on the roster I would want starting excpet as a stopgap is Wilfork. Basically whether its 34 or 43 the 4 spots that are DE and OLB are all quesiton marks with the best of the bunch being a guy you'd like to be the 4th best of the bunch, Ninkovich.
We need a starter and a #3 at safety. We need at least one more corner.
On offense, right now at WR we have no starters returning. In the interior OL we have Mankins, and hopefully Waters if he doesn't retire but no replacement if he does, or starting C on the roster. Our starting RB is a FA.

I think you are stretching it to say he can play 43 DT, MLB, ILB, 43 OLB, but in any event he can only play one position at a time.

I'm not saying he is injury prone, I'm saying I am concerned by an injury this year that is the type that can recur, because its a huge investment.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Nnamdi Asomugha signed for $12M a year last offseason when he could've had at least 15. I see Mario being in a similar situation given his recent comments. That's not a ton of money at all if it makes the passing defense even average instead of bad.

Basically he would replace Andre Carter who had about as many sacks as Williams has in a normal season. Even if Williams is getting more pressures, we are still talking about a couple of plays a game of rushing the QB. That alone doesn't change a pass D from bad to average.
People look at good pass rushers and act like they are a factor on every pass play. They aren't, and the best ones are only factors on a handful of plays in any game.
Besides if you aren't covering, your pass rushers aren't getting long enough to get to the QB.
I'd rather add multiple upgrades to the defense than pay a boatload of money for one guy who even if he is the best pass rusher in the league is only a piece of the puzzle.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

How long has it been that the masses have been calling for difference makers on defense yet when the time comes and a truly elite difference maker may be available, many won't pull the trigger?

This defense needs an injection of FU to the rest of the league. Put some difference makers on D before O.

Who are 'the masses' that were calling for 'difference makers' and won't 'pull the trgiger'?
I have never been a fan of expecting one player to have more impact than one player can and spending huge to get it.
You may disagree with that, but you can't (accurately) call it inconsistent.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Who are 'the masses' that were calling for 'difference makers' and won't 'pull the trgiger'?
I have never been a fan of expecting one player to have more impact than one player can and spending huge to get it.
You may disagree with that, but you can't (accurately) call it inconsistent.

You're not being serious are you Andy? Would you like a gentle stroll through the "hey the Patriots defense is **** because the personnel is crap and BB is doing an amazing coaching job" line of thought demonstrated by many, many posters?

If Williams becomes available, I would be disappointed if the Patriots didn't go after him. He's a game changer that this D needs.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Basically he would replace Andre Carter who had about as many sacks as Williams has in a normal season. Even if Williams is getting more pressures, we are still talking about a couple of plays a game of rushing the QB. That alone doesn't change a pass D from bad to average.
People look at good pass rushers and act like they are a factor on every pass play. They aren't, and the best ones are only factors on a handful of plays in any game.
Besides if you aren't covering, your pass rushers aren't getting long enough to get to the QB.
I'd rather add multiple upgrades to the defense than pay a boatload of money for one guy who even if he is the best pass rusher in the league is only a piece of the puzzle.

Although I am not actually advocating spending on Williams, I don't think Carter is a fair comparison. Carter never demanded the double and triple teams that Williams' demands or would demand here. A key thing a Mario Williams would do that Carter couldn't is give more favorable match ups for other players on the front seven when rushing the passer. Typically when a team has a dominant pass rusher on one side, the pass rusher on the opposite side gets to the QB a lot.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Do you think there are any outside pass rushers that teams don't account for every play?

Yes Andy, if you want to get technical all pass rushers are accounted for.

Williams is a dictator on defense. Offensive lines game plan specifically for players like him. Especially when that player can line up just about anywhere. Couple that with Wilfork who already see's a fair amount of doubles and it creates opportunities for other players to do special things when so much attention is geared towards your superstars.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

For those who say they're better off spreading the wealth around, they paid about $9,000,000 to these three players who won't be on the team this year and didn't contribute much of anything last year. Use that money to go towards Williams.

New-England-Patriots Salaries | New-England-Patriots Player Salaries | 2011 New-England-Patriots Salary

Ellis=$5,000,000
Wright=$2,700,000
Haynesworth=$1,500,000

 

[supafly]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Where would you upgrade, though? Nearly every defensive position is set. They need two pieces and depth on offense. Williams can play every position up front in either alignment except 0 (that's six out of seven possible) in addition to outside linebacker. He can also play all of those at an extremely high level, and a lot more economically than a lot of people seem to be imagining.

Excluding his freak torn pec, Williams missed three games out of eighty in his prior five seasons. He doesn't exactly strike me as injury prone.

I'm in agreement with this thinking, and I think that they are one significant player away from making major strides on that side of the ball.

The other 'holes' on defense can easily be filled via the draft, mid/lower level FA moves, UDFA's, and maybe another team's cut player or two. This defense is relatively young, and up and coming. I don't see nearly the amount of 'needs' that some here do.

The addition of a nasty front 7 player like this with the ability to produce instant results could very well be worth it. Without any doubt, he should be looked at closely, with some type of negotiations.

 

[SEA_Pat]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Williams sounds great, but the injuries are a concern. This is the time of year when BB starts cranking up the DeWayne Robertson Memorial Smokescreen Machine.

Or as one might say, "in BBWK we don't trust".

 

[supafly]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

I think there is a lot of room for upgrading the defense. The only DL on the roster I would want starting excpet as a stopgap is Wilfork. Basically whether its 34 or 43 the 4 spots that are DE and OLB are all quesiton marks with the best of the bunch being a guy you'd like to be the 4th best of the bunch, Ninkovich.
We need a starter and a #3 at safety. We need at least one more corner.

I think that this situation can be greatly improved with a minimal amount of money spent, Andy.

There's no reason to believe that a team that ranked 15th in pts allowed can't make its way into the top 10 by shaving off a pt or two, and that would certainly allow us to continue to give our offensive weapons the ability to compete at a high level for awhile into the future.

You were the one saying all year long that the defense wasn't 1/2 as bad as the passing stats led most to believe. You were the one that started the thread that the defense gave us the ability to "win" in almost every game this yr. Why the change of heart now?

I understand your opinion on the weaknesses of the defense, and where competition and depth need to occur, but why don't you feel that these positions won't be addressed via the draft, FA, etc for a fair amount of money?

With 6 picks in the top 100 or so, a decent cap situation, and over 600 potential free agents, I would think that there's no reason to believe that this team cannot shave a point/point and a half off its average to move into the top 10.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Basically he would replace Andre Carter who had about as many sacks as Williams has in a normal season. Even if Williams is getting more pressures, we are still talking about a couple of plays a game of rushing the QB. That alone doesn't change a pass D from bad to average.
People look at good pass rushers and act like they are a factor on every pass play. They aren't, and the best ones are only factors on a handful of plays in any game.
Besides if you aren't covering, your pass rushers aren't getting long enough to get to the QB.
I'd rather add multiple upgrades to the defense than pay a boatload of money for one guy who even if he is the best pass rusher in the league is only a piece of the puzzle.

The problem with your thinking here is you are only looking at it only from an individual statistical view, and statistics don't take many variables into account. Williams could easily come in here and not put up the numbers Andre Carter did, but he could still have much more of an impact. His flexibility offers the Pats so many more options scheme wise, which Andre Carter can't (nothing against Carter, I would still love to bring him back). He forces offenses to account for him on every play, drawing double teams, being a facilitator and allowing those around him to make plays. You say pass rushers aren't a factor on every play, but William's isn't a pure pass rusher. He is a talented and versatile defender that can make an impact on every play. He is stout against the run and has the athleticism to cover the flats and drop into shallow coverage. And even if he isn't creating pressure, if he forces an offense to keep an extra TE in the game to block him, would you call that an impact? I certainly would. Adding another guy on the DL that demands double teams along with Wilfork forces offenses to keep more guys into block because there are only 5 guys on the offensive line. Keeping extra guys in to block, whether they be a TE or a RB means there is one less receiving option, making it that much easier for the secondary. I think you really underestimate Williams ability to impact a game, even when he isn't the one actually making the plays. Your are right though, he is only 1 piece, but he is a big one that you can build around.

 

[Joker]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

One play...in the Super Bowl...Belichick calls the defense and GETS the coverage he wants...Belichick WANTS Manning to look for Manningham ...in double coverage...AFTER checking down from his primary...the ball is snapped...Manning checks down...Manning has the time to deliver the ball a split second BEFORE the safety can get in position where he SHOULD be to knock it away...the ball is delivered into a very small window of catchability...the Pats LOSE the Super Bowl.

HOW does BB address this deficiency that COST the Pats the game??? A pass rusher extraordinaire certainly boosts the percentages in the Pats favor..#1 by applying pressure to disrupt the pinpoint delivery of the pass or #2 by SACKING the QB thereby negating any chance of a first down on the play.

The question then is....if Williams IS that player capable of applying THAT pressure in THAT situation, why WOULDN'T Belichick try to sign him? These splits of seconds involved in these passing plays are CRUCIAL...1/2 second EARLIER in getting to the QB spells HUGE dividends. Personally, I never thought BB would go after Adalius Thomas when HE was available...citing my own personally biased "Patriot Way" views...I was wrong about that...this time I think I'll just sit back and WATCH...try to see if this "really involved" story has any legs...make no mistake about it though,adding Mario Williams to the front seven is a win/win move..I just want to see it before I believe it.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

I HATE it when PEOPLE have to write IMPORTANT words in CAPITAL letters.

You can get your point across in lower case guys

 

[Joker]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

jeezus krist...now there's a font size cop patrolling the board from overseas......anal retentive much???

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

jeezus krist...now there's a font size cop patrolling the board from overseas......anal retentive much???

It's a JOKE

 

[JoeShmoe]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

This is a rare situation where obvious need combines with the arguably the best fit in the entire league. When you add in Williams' comments about playing for a great coach and desire to win I think it's pretty easy to see the fit.

This defense is absolutely jammed full of B-level players and has only one A-level player. There is a need up front, and a strong one at that. There is a need for a superstar. There ain't one in the draft, and there sure ain't gonna be one of this calibur in FA for a while to come along. Williams is a rare, rare player who presents once in a generation versatility. More versatile than Peppers, and likely can contribute more to this team than Peppers would have. Mario Williams isn't just another name- he's rare, special, and a perfect fit. The young guys are developing, and the time for the inflection point has come. You want to win championships? Guess what? Championships come down to two or three plays. Go get a goddamned playmaker.

I agree entirely. We have IMO a decent set of young players on D with Dowling and Pryor to come back. Carter and Anderson were good additions and with a FS/Hyrbrid CB added in the draft (Dennard, Johnson etc) we have a really good base. But whats needed is the x-factor to compliment Wilfork. Look at all the other defenses who will be about in January, they all have 2 or 3 all-pro defensive players. Williams just elevates that whole group massively

He'll know too that coming here gives him a shot at a ring which always gives us a chance of getting someone on a slightly smaller contract

As has also been said, you take the cap money from Wright, Ellis, Warren, Haynesworth etc there's close to 10m right there

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

For those who say they're better off spreading the wealth around, they paid about $9,000,000 to these three players who won't be on the team this year and didn't contribute much of anything last year. Use that money to go towards Williams.

New-England-Patriots Salaries | New-England-Patriots Player Salaries | 2011 New-England-Patriots Salary

Ellis=$5,000,000
Wright=$2,700,000
Haynesworth=$1,500,000

Your numbers are a little off, those are cap hits and Ellis' was $4M. So that's 3 players for $8.2M. The problem is Mario will cost a lot more - Peppers deal averages $14M - and if he's injured as he was for most of last season in Houston, then what?? The Pats appear to be about $14M under the anticipated cap including tagging Welker...and whether they do or don't tag him they will end up spending that $9M at least on WR upgrades/replacement. So you get Mario and wiggle in the draftees and that's it? Who needs a Center or another guard or a veteran backup QB or NT or whatever those 17 FA we'd be losing provided...

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Since we only have one player comparable to Mario Williams, here's Peppers' cap hits per year:

2010-34 mil (base 20)
2011-13.8 (base 990k)
2012-11.3 (base 8.9)
2013-15.3 (12.9)
2014-16.3 (13.9)
2015-18.8 (16.5)

The signing bonus was 6.5, and there was another bonus in 2010 that make that cap hit skyrocket, and Peppers' base salary was 990,000 in 2011 with another 10+ mil bonus.

Throw some more money into a signing bonus, and once the cap number goes sky high is when the rest of that money comes around. There's no reason we can't keep the two TE's and stay competitive. Brady's number is astronomical for the next two years IIRC as well.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Re: Matt Williamson: The Pats will be "really involved" in trying to get Mario Willi

Your numbers are a little off, those are cap hits and Ellis' was $4M. So that's 3 players for $8.2M. The problem is Mario will cost a lot more - Peppers deal averages $14M - and if he's injured as he was for most of last season in Houston, then what?? The Pats appear to be about $14M under the anticipated cap including tagging Welker...and whether they do or don't tag him they will end up spending that $9M at least on WR upgrades/replacement. So you get Mario and wiggle in the draftees and that's it? Who needs a Center or another guard or a veteran backup QB or NT or whatever those 17 FA we'd be losing provided...

I think you can sign Williams and still have plenty of room to make additional upgrades at other positions. Obviously Welker being franchised instead of signing a long term deal will make things more difficult, but its still doable. The key for Williams will be guaranteed money. If we can get him for something like 7yrs with $40mil guaranteed, with a $21mil signing bonus, he could easily be fit under the cap. It would likely need to be back-loaded, and I know some people don't want to do that because of the future Gronk contract, but I don't think it will be an issue. We could eaily structure a contract with minimal cap impact for the first 2 years ($6-7mil per for 2011/12) and growing in 2014 with the expected cap increase. Now he would probably never see any of the non-guaranteed money in the final year because of a large cap hit, but I would happily take Super Mario for 6 years.

We will also likely have about $12mil in dead cap coming off the books next offseason, as well as another $10.25mil from Light and Waters if they play and retire after 2012. We are currently around $103mil for the top 51. The key is we are already at 51, so a large proportion of rookie salaries will be cancelled out by the roster spots of players already on the roster. So instead of $5-6 added for rookies, its probably only $1-2mil depending on trading picks. I don't think the cap will impact the Pats decision to go after Williams, I think it will purely come down to does BB think he is worth the contract.