LB . . . the way I see it

[DaBruinz]

Cousins,
If we fill no other positions in the draft because of the hailed BPA theory, ILB outweighs that for a least one draft slot. I think if you look back to last years draft, although I have had disagreements on this, the Pats seemed to be in a pick-for-need mode. Check the positions they needed prior and what the picked. It's 80% need in 2006.

I have a question and I respect all of your thoughts. From reading and study on the LB part of the draft, It appears that the Pats would prefer Woodley over Harris all things being equal, but the OLB/DE he is being pegged at is a little less of a position need now with AT. Woodley being a very quick, feisty animal and 268-270lbs but smart, is it possible to put Woodley on the inside? They say he seems like he can cover fairly well in the drills and the idea of him is being drafted as a OLB (McGinnest) type elephant backer would be a natural fit.

Another idea here goes. I think Woodley can move well, he's still a stuffer and he can make the change to MLB. Wouldn't that be scary for our foes if we draft this kid. Correct me if I am wrong, but it used to be the lighter guys with speed like Colvin played outside the tackles at OLB.

Where do you get that Woodley can cover fairly well? Woodley was pulled in coverage situations while at U of M.

Yes, anything is possible. The bigger question is what is PROBABLE. How PROBABLE is it that the Patriots would use a 1st round pick on a conversion project to move Woodley to ILB. A position he's never played before. Tedy Bruschi at least had 3 years under Belichick before he was moved to ILB in 2002.

Now, I also question whether Woodley is a natural for the "elephant position". McGinest was a natural for that position with his 6'5 height and 270 lbs. Vrabel works out well at that position with his 6'4 height and 255-260 lbs. Woodley is only 6' 1.5" tall. So he's a good 2.5-3.5" shorter than either McGinest or Vrabel.

Next question I have for your viewpoint please. Beason has been said to be a better pick at ILB for a 34 than Willis who is a more traditional 43 guy. Why is that? It seems that Beason has Ian Gold type size and speed and is more suited for OLB. How much smaller in real life is Beason over Teddy? Not the tend-to-lie, media guides.

Beason is less than an inch shorter than Tedy Bruschi and about 10 lbs based on Tedy saying he normally plays around 248. Beason also has about 10-15 lbs on Ian Gold. How do you figure that Beason = Gold? I think that Beason is a lot closer to Tedy Bruschi than he is to Ian Gold. The big question is whether Beason has the body to put on another 10 lbs and be like Bruschi.

Maybe Beason and Woodley (or Harris) should be taken to fill the rotation at MLB with Teddy right now? This way AT, Colvin and Vrabel have a set rotation at OLB. I think Beason and either Harris or Woodley are all there at 24 and 28. Then we are set for many years at MLB even if Teddy retires.

If we can get a safety who can start asap in Round three at #91 if we are lucky, like Piscatelli (most thread champions hate him. Look at the tapes! If this kid played for OSU or USC we'd be talking about where in the first round he lands. The quote is first round talent but still doesn't do enough to satisfy the NFL Scouts appetite) Wendling (good talent, small school), Rouse (gone?) or Gattis (a thread favorite), we have made some good gains on D.

Piscatelli or Wendling have my votes for safety prospects.

Still need a CB regardless of Assante, and a RB. If the above guys are gone, maybe Hughes or Young (too high?) at CB or Bush or Henry at RB are still on the Board and we can go to round four for a safety like Stone from Maine (a steal and a Rodney clone) or Payne, both good size productive safeties who can ST as well.

Agreed. Pats need a CB. I think that RB is a need as well, though it depends on who the Pats will look at.

My sleeper SS is Will Herring from Auburn. 6" 3" 229 with about 4.57 speed, very smart and knows all assignments and led the Tigers in tackles on 05 at SS and 06 at new position OLB the last two seasons! That is hard to do cousins. He took one for the team in 2006 and moved to a vacant hole from SS to OLB. He needed to learn that job. So....Second team All SEC Conferenece. He is being buried by all the media and I can't see why (Major issues?Lack of strength?...... at 18 225's? -That can be taken care of even better with a somber weight program. Weaker in coverage? Actually good. 2 int. 2 PBU and 9.5 TFL at OLB first year in 2006). He can be had in the fifth or sixth round. Is NFL idea to switch him to OLB as well.

Another crazy idea. I would love to experiment with this kid. Urlacher was a SS at U.of New Mexico and he came into the NFL as a MLB after he gained 15- 20 LBS. Herring has that intensity and 4.57 speed. He even has more LB experience than Urlacher had. Obviously a superb tackler. You gentlemen will torch me for this, but have Herring gain 20 LBS and try him at MLB. He's bigger than many ILBs right now. At a fifth or sixth choice, he offers options.

Pro Day:
40-yard dashes in 4.57 and 4.58 seconds, respectively. Even more impressive, however, was Herring's short shuttle (3.99) and three-cone drill times (6.56). Finally, he finished things off with a 35-inch vertical, 10-foot-5 inch broad jump, and 18 bench press repetitions with 225 pounds on the bar. Not athletic? Check the stud safeties. The tapes don't lie either. This kid plays well and is a,ways around the ball. Can play OLB and SS (Roman Pfifer played well with versatility for the Pats). This kid is bigger and faster than Roman.

Quote:The question is, where does that leave Herring? As a big NFL draft question mark. Which is a shame because Herring is a football player, plain and simple. He tackles well, he works hard, and he's reliable. What's more, he's an excellent cover guy for a linebacker.

Just picking through the possibilies and some people less thought of.
DW Toys

Herring is hardly a sleeper pick on this board. BOR found him and many of us have him in our mocks for the Pats.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I know we'll move them around, etc. But we'll still have a base set that will be played more than others.

One thing we all agree on is that Colvin goes back to WOLB (the right side) where he was before Seau got hurt.

The next most likely agreement is that Bruschi stays as the SILB, the run plugger. He's just not fast enough to be the big play Tedy anymore.

That leaves Thomas and Vrabel. I think a lot of people think Vrabel will move inside. I don't. McGinest played that SOLB until he was a lot older than Vrabel and I think Vrabel is staying out there. The most important part of the position is being strong and setting the edge on the strong side. Like Willie did he can still rush and cover as needed and it's his best position.

Which leaves the WILB spot for Thomas. Bruschi's old spot. The one Seau played last year. I think he's perfect for it even though it's "inside". He can still blitz. He has the size to play well against the run although he's not the pure run guy. And that spot often covers the TE downfield - remember the opening game when Seau got a game ball for covering the TE downfield allowing Warren to make the sack on the game winning safety.

Bottom line, I think the LB are EXACTLY the same as how they were last year until Seau got hurt. I don't think Thomas is out of position there, I think he's a great fit with his size against the run and coverage ability. I know he's not thought of as a guy who takes on tackles but we all know Seau wasn't either.

I question whether Tedy is big enough to be a run stopper, but agree it seems he's lost enough of a step to be less effective in his previous duties.

I thought the whole idea in signing Thomas was his versatility and that BB would move him around to drive OC's bonkers? So I don't envision just one defensive array for the team.

That of course means that BB needs to do much more to give himself the ability to move players around. A high draft pick, training camp cut pickups and even some trades strike me as very likely moves to give himself the versatility intended with the signing of AD.

So I wouldn't spend too much time trying to figure the current configuration of the defense - it will change greatly before the season starts.

 

[RayClay]

Originally Posted by RayClay View Post
I agree. We had no competition at LB last year and it cost us a trip to the Super Bowl.

I disagree totally. What cost the Pats a trip to the SuperBowl was lack of depth at LB AND injuries.

We had one linebacker handed the starting position by default, (TBC).

We had one injury in the second half of the season.

I'm glad you say almost exactly the same thing i did when you disagree with me totally.

 

[BelichickFan]

I just want all four on the field at the same time. For that to happen, Thomas or Vrabel has to be the second ILB. They're both DE/LB tweener types but I would leave Vrabel outside. Thomas at 6'2", 270 I think is more suited to the ILB than Vrabel at 6'4", 261.

Unless we add ILBs are rotate the three OLB, one of the two is going inside a decent amount, the only question is which one.

 

[DW Toys]

Where do you get that Woodley can cover fairly well? Woodley was pulled in coverage situations while at U of M.

Yes, anything is possible. The bigger question is what is PROBABLE. How PROBABLE is it that the Patriots would use a 1st round pick on a conversion project to move Woodley to ILB. A position he's never played before. Tedy Bruschi at least had 3 years under Belichick before he was moved to ILB in 2002.

Now, I also question whether Woodley is a natural for the "elephant position". McGinest was a natural for that position with his 6'5 height and 270 lbs. Vrabel works out well at that position with his 6'4 height and 255-260 lbs. Woodley is only 6' 1.5" tall. So he's a good 2.5-3.5" shorter than either McGinest or Vrabel.




Beason is less than an inch shorter than Tedy Bruschi and about 10 lbs based on Tedy saying he normally plays around 248. Beason also has about 10-15 lbs on Ian Gold. How do you figure that Beason = Gold? I think that Beason is a lot closer to Tedy Bruschi than he is to Ian Gold. The big question is whether Beason has the body to put on another 10 lbs and be like Bruschi.



Piscatelli or Wendling have my votes for safety prospects.



Agreed. Pats need a CB. I think that RB is a need as well, though it depends on who the Pats will look at.



Herring is hardly a sleeper pick on this board. BOR found him and many of us have him in our mocks for the Pats.

Cousin,
Thanks on the replys. So am I to guess that you go for Harris or Beason? Either or work for me. I just have the impression the Pats like Woodley over Harris. I'd rather an ILB than a end to rotate.

Good news on Herring.

Cousins, What do you feel see on S Darren Stone? Any threads on him. Seems like the exact same size as Harrison.Some traits to. Even the small school bit. Is he Harrison material? One mock I saw him in the second round? Way, way too high.
What about this MLB Dye from K. State. Every time I hear K Sate I think about Biesel.
Payne SS
Coe CB

Some rags have us drafting Blades at MLB. If we have to have an underdog who plays in the Zach Thomas mode, I'd rather Abate.

Last question for any of you out there. I do like Kalil. Any shot of him as a guard in rotation?

DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

I just want all four on the field at the same time. For that to happen, Thomas or Vrabel has to be the second ILB. They're both DE/LB tweener types but I would leave Vrabel outside. Thomas at 6'2", 270 I think is more suited to the ILB than Vrabel at 6'4", 261.

Unless we add ILBs are rotate the three OLB, one of the two is going inside a decent amount, the only question is which one.

Still wouldn't be upset if we sign Hartwell after the draft pending what we get.
DW Toys

 

[DaBruinz]

We had one linebacker handed the starting position by default, (TBC).

We had one injury in the second half of the season.

I'm glad you say almost exactly the same thing i did when you disagree with me totally.

You claimed it was lack of competition. I disagree because TBC wasn't a starter to open the season. Vrabel was the starting OLB opposite Colvin. And I whole heartedly believe that TBC was given the chance to win a starting position.

Now, TBC did beat out Mincey and Woods for the back-up spot behind Vrabel. Now, if you want to say that TBC had the back-up spot handed to him because Mincey didn't do his best because he "thought he'd have a year to learn the offense", ok. I can give that to you.

This is why I call it a lack of depth. Because Woods clearly wasn't ready to step in and, well neither was TBC, who was the primary back-up at OLB. It also didn't help that Alexander hadn't progressed enough where he could step in as the WILB on a regular basis.

I wouldn't call it a lack of competition unless you are equating competition to lack of talent.

 

[RayClay]

You claimed it was lack of competition. I disagree because TBC wasn't a starter to open the season. Vrabel was the starting OLB opposite Colvin. And I whole heartedly believe that TBC was given the chance to win a starting position.

Now, TBC did beat out Mincey and Woods for the back-up spot behind Vrabel. Now, if you want to say that TBC had the back-up spot handed to him because Mincey didn't do his best because he "thought he'd have a year to learn the offense", ok. I can give that to you.

This is why I call it a lack of depth. Because Woods clearly wasn't ready to step in and, well neither was TBC, who was the primary back-up at OLB. It also didn't help that Alexander hadn't progressed enough where he could step in as the WILB on a regular basis.

I wouldn't call it a lack of competition unless you are equating competition to lack of talent.

OK, misunderstanding.

I consider having a lot of talent competition.

Our FAs beat out a 6th round pick. Our 7th round pick and UDFA special teamer were the only possible choices when Seau went down.

Our other UDFAs might come through but aren't even competing because of lack of experience. Look at our WR position for contrast.

Obviously, if we had first round picks or 2 more A.D. quality linebackers I wouldn't be worried as much about competition.

When your only experienced backups are a 7th rounder and an UDFA, they should have doubled up on cheap free agents or drafted 3-4 low round picks, (3-7) 2 years ago and let them fight it out.

Apparently, they want to keep inexpensive linebackers and train them unless they can find top linebackers or bargains available.

Obviously, they are not finding enough to replenish the stock.

If they need to take a chance on the Beisels and Gardners and UDFAs, they need to stock uo and keep some on the practice squad like they do OL.

The other choice is to spend a lot more on free agent linebackers because if there were bargains like Vrabel available every year, they would pick up two. Obviously there aren't.