Latest thinking on offensive roster

[Mike the Brit]

Ugh!

In my book, going armed in Florida only makes sense. Self-defense is an elementary right
... law or no law.

But DWI menaces others ...
and brassknuckles tells me he's an aggressor.

I'm very sorry to hear that.

 

[Pats726]

The Pats have regularly carried 9 OL. I believe there's only been 1 year where they carried 8 on the regular roster. But they also had l2 or 3 on the practie squad.

In 03 they had 8 OL on the 53 for 12 weeks and only 7 for the last two playoff games. In 04, 7 weeks they had 8 OL and 9 weeks only 7 on the 53.
In 05, they had 7 weeks with only 8 OL on the 53 (early in the season). In 06, In 06 there were 4 weeks with only 8 OL on the 53. They seem to have trended to carry more OL last year and the year before, later in the season. And yes, they have always had 2-3 OL on the Practice Squad.

 

[lapatsfan]

Why is everyone so worried about the RB position???? Do you actually think we'll need to run the ball this year? Muahahahahahaha.

 

[Pats726]

I'm very sorry to hear that.

I am as well..when I looked his name up, I had NOT heard of it and..was kind of hoping NOT to find something like that.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Seems like Gutierrez is looking good. Personally I'd prefer to keep him at #3 over Vinny and not risk losing him to the P.S.

I don't understand the worry about losing a totally untried quarterback who wasn't drafted at all from the practice squad.

If another team were to pick Gutierrez up, they'd have to give him a roster slot in the full knowledge that he wouldn't contribute during the season. He wouldn't have had training camp to get to know that team's system and, as third (or even fourth) quarterback, would just be an assistant to the clipboard-holder. A team would have to be VERY high on a quarterback to make that commitment -- and if they were, why didn't they use a seventh-rounder on him in the first place?

 

[BelichickFan]

I don't understand the worry about losing a totally untried quarterback who wasn't drafted at all from the practice squad.

Understood - and P.S. players aren't taken from rosters too often. However he has sounded interesting in camp, QB are at a premium and lesser teams have more "redshirt" roster spots available like we did when we kept Brady as our 4th QB in 2000.

 

[Pats726]

I don't understand the worry about losing a totally untried quarterback who wasn't drafted at all from the practice squad.

If another team were to pick Gutierrez up, they'd have to give him a roster slot in the full knowledge that he wouldn't contribute during the season. He wouldn't have had training camp to get to know that team's system and, as third (or even fourth) quarterback, would just be an assistant to the clipboard-holder. A team would have to be VERY high on a quarterback to make that commitment -- and if they were, why didn't they use a seventh-rounder on him in the first place?

That does make sense in some ways..maybe a team would have an opening for a developmental guy..who knows about roster spots for other teams. More than likely, he would be grabbed by a team that had an injury or two and wanted a body for the future..but ON the 53. One never knows what strategies other teams have.

 

[cstjohn17]

I don't understand the worry about losing a totally untried quarterback who wasn't drafted at all from the practice squad.

If another team were to pick Gutierrez up, they'd have to give him a roster slot in the full knowledge that he wouldn't contribute during the season. He wouldn't have had training camp to get to know that team's system and, as third (or even fourth) quarterback, would just be an assistant to the clipboard-holder. A team would have to be VERY high on a quarterback to make that commitment -- and if they were, why didn't they use a seventh-rounder on him in the first place?

I agree, not just for Gutierrez but any pratice squad player. For the most part they are inter-changable parts. In most cases if someone gets plucked we can easily find a suitable warm body. I remember an uproar when Miami took Kyle Eckel, we all heard how great Patrick Cobbs was and Michael Bishop was a star in the making, etc., etc. , etc.

I bet every message board in the NFL has similar threads about fans falling in love with fringe roster players.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Understood - and P.S. players aren't taken from rosters too often. However he has sounded interesting in camp, QB are at a premium and lesser teams have more "redshirt" roster spots available like we did when we kept Brady as our 4th QB in 2000.

It's early yet but since camp opened all I've heard is that he hustles to find ways to make himself useful and stays late for one on one sessions with the coaching staff. Those traits will endear him to BB, but unless he creates a media buzz in pre season games, as Cassel did his first year, he will make the PS with ease. We haven't even had a PS QB for the last couple of seasons...which now has me thinking that unless we at least manage that this season BB has already decided that he will let Cassel play out his deal barring an offer he can't refuse.

It also strikes me as odd that BB would have reassured Vinny that he will be back unless he had already written off the prospect of Gutierrez making the 53. Of course the only one we have heard basically state that is Vinny. And the conversations could have been a little more non specific than he portrayed them as being. There is also the possibility that while they will sign him after two a days, they will cut him to the shadow roster before the bell rings. And if he and not Gutierrez sees mop up duty in the pre season, there won't be much of any buzz about the UDFA QB heading into the cuts.

 

[JoeSixPat]

A few weeks into camp, there are several things which seem to have emerged:

1. QBs (2). Status quo. Brady and Cassell, with the shadow roster providing an emergency signing. Guitierrez to PS.

2. OL (9). Deep and strong. Probably the same 9 guys from last year. Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, O'Callahan, Kazcur, Britt, Hochstein, Yates. We have lots of good guys (Mruc, Barthelmes, Elgin, Oldenburg) that should make the practice squad, as well.

3. RB (4). A bit shallow. At this point, we're looking at Kool Aid, Morris, Evans, and Faulk only, IMHO.

4. TE (3). Also a bit shallow. Wouldn't be surprised to see only Watson, Brady, and Thomas. Kranchick to PS.

In the past, the team has had about 24 players on offense (not counting the ST specialists). Assuming the above is true, that leaves 6 WR slots open, plus PUP.

At this point, Brown and Jackson are still considered PUP, and you'd have to imagine with the depth above them, it will stay that way going into the season.

That means the six WR slots would go to Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Gaffney, Caldwell, and Washington. Some of the lesser guys can make the practice squad.

Based on all the reports so far, that seems to be the most likely outcome. The only substitution one might make is putting Thomas on PUP (if he is that badly-injured), and keeping another player like Mills around until after Week 6. Another might be releasing Washington and activating Brown or Jackson from PUP.

Just a few thoughts - Vinny T seemed pretty upfront about the fact that he'll be brought in later in camp. I question whether he'd have said that in June/July if the plan wasn't to bring him in until November. Although I hope I'm wrong there's the possiblity we'll start the season with 3 QBs including Testaverde.

WR - yes I see six on the roster, but it would not surprise me to see BB leverage his depth at that position, if everyone is healthy, to trade a Caldwell or Washington for another player commodity at an area where we could use some depth.

RB, LB and CB are all possibilities. Gaffney seems like he's played himself into a spot, though Caldwell certainly had developed good timing on 10 yrd passes with Brady by last year. Still if they are going to be traded, best give them lots of reps in camp and increase their value. Washington too has a very tradeable contract for a team with a need at WR.

 

[Pats726]

The OL from 03-06

Just a bit more on the OL the last 4 years....

03---Woody, Compton, Koppen, Andruzzi, Klemm, Light, Gorin, Ashworth
Wk 2 Hochstein added from PS (9) Wk 4 Compton IR-< WBrown Wk 7 Klemm IR (8) AFC Chmp Woody IR (7)

04---Neal, Hochstein, Mruczkowski, Koppen, Andruzzi, Klemm, Light, Gorin, Ashworth, Hallen (10)
Hallen cut before 1stG (9) Wk 4 Klemm IR (8) Wk 8 Ashworth IR (7) Wk12 MSullivan added (8) Wk14 MSullivan cut (7) SB Yates added (8)

05---Neal, Hochstein, Koppen, Light, Ashworth, Gorin, Mankins, Kaczur (8)
Wk 4 Mruc added (9) Wk 5 Mruc cut (8) Wk9 Yates PS added (9) Wk 10 Koppen IR-Mruc added (9) Wk 14 Tucker added (10)

06---Neal, Hochstein, Koppen, Light, Mrucz, Mankins, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Britt (9)
Wk 4 Mrucz cut (8) Wk 6 Yares added PS (9) Wk 10 yates IR (8) Wk 12 Mruc back (9) Wk 13 Mruc cut (8) Wk 14 Mrucz bk (9) Noting that one week
Mruc was brought bk and cut iun the same week....

Seems like more lineman on 53 in 06 and 05 than 03 and 04 AND always 1-3 on Practice squad

 

[cstjohn17]

Re: The OL from 03-06

Just a bit more on the OL the last 4 years....
Seems like more lineman on 53 in 06 and 05 than 03 and 04 AND always 1-3 on Practice squad

Nice post, somehow 9 seems like the right number to me. Maybe they go with 8 and have Oldenburg, Elgin and Hilliard on the PS. Although it looks Elgin may have a shot to take down Hochstein as the reserve guard / center, especially if Yates is injured.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: The OL from 03-06

Just a bit more on the OL the last 4 years....

03---Woody, Compton, Koppen, Andruzzi, Klemm, Light, Gorin, Ashworth
Wk 2 Hochstein added from PS (9) Wk 4 Compton IR-< WBrown Wk 7 Klemm IR (8) AFC Chmp Woody IR (7) You forgot Kenyatta Jones who opened the season on the roster, but was cut on October 26th after being arrested for throwing boiling water on his roommate while his roommate was on the can. So they opened with 9, went to 10, but them lost Compton, Klemm, Jones, and Woody. I don't remember who they added other than Brown

04---Neal, Hochstein, Mruczkowski, Koppen, Andruzzi, Klemm, Light, Gorin, Ashworth, Hallen (10)
Hallen cut before 1stG (9) Wk 4 Klemm IR (8) Wk 8 Ashworth IR (7) Wk12 MSullivan added (8) Wk14 MSullivan cut (7) SB Yates added (8)

05---Neal, Hochstein, Koppen, Light, Ashworth, Gorin, Mankins, Kaczur (8)
Wk 4 Mruc added (9) Wk 5 Mruc cut (8) Wk9 Yates PS added (9) Wk 10 Koppen IR-Mruc added (9) Wk 14 Tucker added (10) You forgot about Light going on the IR on 12/22.

06---Neal, Hochstein, Koppen, Light, Mrucz, Mankins, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Britt (9)
Wk 4 Mrucz cut (8) Wk 6 Yares added PS (9) Wk 10 yates IR (8) Wk 12 Mruc back (9) Wk 13 Mruc cut (8) Wk 14 Mrucz bk (9) Noting that one week
Mruc was brought bk and cut iun the same week....

Seems like more lineman on 53 in 06 and 05 than 03 and 04 AND always 1-3 on Practice squad

So, from what you've said, the Patriots do tend to keep 9 O-linemen.

The Pats have used 4 OTs every year since Belichick got here in 2000, with RT being a proverbial carousel with no one person holding the position for the entirety of a season.

 

[Pats726]

Re: The OL from 03-06

So, from what you've said, the Patriots do tend to keep 9 O-linemen.

No....the past two years they have..MORE so but not in 03-04...
KJones was NEVER on the 53 roster AT ALL in 03 UNLESS you wish to count PUP..but that is in addition to the 53 He was PUPed..so was cut instead of being activated. And yes, I did forget Light's IR..my oversight.

03----19 weeks----9 OL 5 weeks---8 OL 12 weeks---7 OL 2 weeks
04----19 weeks----9 OL 3 weeks---8 OL 7 weeks----7 OL 9 weeks
05----18 weeks---10 OL 1 week---9 OL 10 weeks---8 OL 7 weeks
06----19 weeks---9 OL 14 weeks---8 OL 5 weeks
The last two years that is the case...but not in 03 and 04.
In 03, KJones was on PUP and cut, but so was Stephen Neal who went to IR and Mrucz who was on the NFRI list and then on PUP and then IR.
The trend is clearly to have more (9) on the 53, but that was NOT the case in the 03/04 championship years, when it was 8 and even 7 in some cases.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The Pats aim to have four tackles and 5 interior linemen for three positions. Dante has been successful in developing several NFL players from college players not ready to play at the NFL when first obtained. By last year he had graduated just about everyone, and th the PS was empty.

This draft restocked his school.

Oldenberg needs three years; two to beef up and understand NFL line play. Hilliard is more advanced but is a lesser talent, IMO. He could probably play if forced to sooner maybe even next year, but he is clearly a reserve and will max out at that level. Elgin needs several years to beef up. But the athleticism and the smarts to be a starting quality C, and when bigger, a Guard, especially at Left "quick" guard.
Barthelmes is big and a long shot, but could become a fair big Guard, emergency Center. But he is athletically more limited than even Hiliard, I surmise.

I would not anticipate any going anywhere, except to the PS for the beginning of a couple years of preparation. Dante needs some new students and Belichick and Pioli went out and stocked up on school candidates.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: The OL from 03-06

No....the past two years they have..MORE so but not in 03-04...
KJones was NEVER on the 53 roster AT ALL in 03 UNLESS you wish to count PUP..but that is in addition to the 53 He was PUPed..so was cut instead of being activated. And yes, I did forget Light's IR..my oversight.

03----19 weeks----9 OL 5 weeks---8 OL 12 weeks---7 OL 2 weeks
04----19 weeks----9 OL 3 weeks---8 OL 7 weeks----7 OL 9 weeks
05----18 weeks---10 OL 1 week---9 OL 10 weeks---8 OL 7 weeks
06----19 weeks---9 OL 14 weeks---8 OL 5 weeks
The last two years that is the case...but not in 03 and 04.
In 03, KJones was on PUP and cut, but so was Stephen Neal who went to IR and Mrucz who was on the NFRI list and then on PUP and then IR.
The trend is clearly to have more (9) on the 53, but that was NOT the case in the 03/04 championship years, when it was 8 and even 7 in some cases.

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but I'd like you to expand it to include the 2000-2002 seasons. I think that you'll see that 2003 and 2004 were aberrations where the Pats went short on the O-line.

 

[mgteich]

Now let's look at our receivers. We seem to need about 17. NOT!

WIDE RECIEVERS (6 + 2)
Surely We NEED 6 plus two on PUP and a couple on the Practice Squad.

TIGHT ENDS (4 + 1)
Surely three is too thin without Mills. Look for one on the Practice Squad.

RUNNING BACKS (4)
All need to be receivers.

 

[Pats726]

The Pats aim to have four tackles and 5 interior linemen for three positions.

Seems to be the case now, the past two years..I wonder how their thinking changed? I thought they were bringing in linemen with flexibility of position. (esp after the Pitts game in 05)? Makes it seem almost incredible in 03/04 esp end of 04 when they had only 7 linemen on the 53 roster.

Dante has been successful in developing several NFL players from college players not ready to play at the NFL when first obtained. By last year he had graduated just about everyone, and th the PS was empty..
This draft restocked his school.

Oldenberg needs three years; two to beef up and understand NFL line play. Hilliard is more advanced but is a lesser talent, IMO. He could probably play if forced to sooner maybe even next year, but he is clearly a reserve and will max out at that level. Elgin needs several years to beef up. But the athleticism and the smarts to be a starting quality C, and when bigger, a Guard, especially at Left "quick" guard.
Barthelmes is big and a long shot, but could become a fair big Guard, emergency Center. But he is athletically more limited than even Hiliard, I surmise.

I would not anticipate any going anywhere, except to the PS for the beginning of a couple years of preparation. Dante needs some new students and Belichick and Pioli went out and stocked up on school candidates.

No doubt at all...he has done a GREAT job!! Besides wrestler Neal, there has been Gorin, Ashworth, Hochstein, Mruczkowski, Yates..all developed by DS. One could add Britt as well who was injured, drafted late and cut; picked up by NE. I agree that he has 4 here that will take time to develop and I hope none are rushed into service. A trade possible? I wonder how many OL will be on the PSquad? (This year spots will be hard to come by.)

 

[Pats726]

Re: The OL from 03-06

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but I'd like you to expand it to include the 2000-2002 seasons. I think that you'll see that 2003 and 2004 were aberrations where the Pats went short on the O-line.

Maybe like the game day rosters of the 53?? Duh?? Maybe 03 and 04 WERE the abberations..none the less..they won two Super Bowls without that many offensive linemen. 8/7 being the predominant number.

 

[Pats726]

Now let's look at our receivers. We seem to need about 17. NOT!

WIDE RECIEVERS (6 + 2)
Surely We NEED 6 plus two on PUP and a couple on the Practice Squad.

TIGHT ENDS (4 + 1)
Surely three is too thin without Mills. Look for one on the Practice Squad.

RUNNING BACKS (4)
All need to be receivers.

I doubt they will keep 2 on the PSquad; just other players needed to be there..QB, OL, LB etc. I would say Childress for sure as they see a lot in him as a future player. THAT IS if he doesn't make the 53. I agree the RBs do need to have receiving skills...and the 4 do.
I am not sure about TE; if they keep 4, no PSqd player. Thomas might be PUPed.
I think 17 is too many...yes?