Kyle Dugger unhappy with transition tag

[upstater1]

Yes but with this year and that he cashes in pretty good. Not sure what he's looking for, maybe way too much.

It just makes it prohibitive for the Patriots to sign him.

$17m + 20% is $21m.

 

[Boomer B]

He’s a good player coming downhill but can be exposed in coverage. Perry and Zolak were talking about this today and it looks like Dugger over valued his market.

 

[Boomer B]

It just makes it prohibitive for the Patriots to sign him.

$17m + 20% is $21m.

There’s no way the Patriots (or anyone else) are paying Dugger $21m. He’s not an all purpose safety. Great in the in-the-box safety role but not great in coverage. He’s a tier below the best safety’s in the league who make between $16m -$19m.

 

[mgteich]

Doesn't the 2nd year tag come with a 20% tax on top of the top safety average?

It is last year's cap plus 20% if that is higher than the tag. This in one of the reasons for not using the higher tag. If he has a good year, the tag would be fine.

 

[Brick27]

If actually true, then apologies to him that the market has seemingly decided he isn’t worth more than a one year fling as it currently stands. Thanks for playing.

 

[DaBruinz]

Unsurprisingly, word out now is that Dugger is angry about the transition tag.

My guess is that he feels like the Patriots hurt his chances in FA because they could match any offer.

He was upset about it when it was announced back on March 6th.. This isn't news.

The Pats basically told Dugger to go out and find the Best Deal Possible and they would match it. Like they've done with every one of their High End players. Including Edelman, Bruschi, Thuney, Mankins, Etc..

Instead of whining in the media, he should have talked to people who went through it so he could manage expectations.

Dugger should be pissed at other teams not wanting to pay safeties in General. Look at all the Vets who got CUT. Adams, Simmons, Diggs, Jackson, ,Hyde, Maye, Phillips, Neal, etc..

 

[DaBruinz]

The question is, do the Patriots think he's only worth $12m when the best are earning $17m?

The Pro Bowl stuff is just irrelevant to me, I put no stock in that. It's the Patriots evaluation that matters.

Personally I think he's great and should be in that $15-$16m range, especially now with the expanded cap.

If he goes out there and plays on the tag, it will be his last season as a Patriot.

The Pats clearly think he's worth at least 13.8M. Which is what Dugger is getting on the Transition Tag.

Whether or not they think he's worth a 3/$45 or 4/$60 deal is another story. As I mentioned in another thread, the Pats have been real stingy under Wolf about signing guys to contracts that taken them beyond age 30.. Dugger just turned 28. The Pats might have only offered him a 2 yr deal and he may have wanted a longer one. Like a 4 year deal. If the Pats balked at that because of how Phillips fell off, then I could see that causing friction.

 

[DaBruinz]

Honestly? Trade him for a 4, and sign Simmons for less $$ who is a much better FS.

$13.8 is too rich for a glorified LB.

LBs are making $19.9M on the Transition and $24 on the Franchise Tag because EDGE players are considered LBs.

If you look at just the LB position w/o the EDGE players, the Top 5 salaries are:
20M, 19.045M, 18M, 15M, and 14.165M.
The average of those is $17.242M Which is just slightly more than the Franchise tag for Safety at $17.123M

Trading him for a 4th rounder is silly. Justin Simmons is 3 years older than Dugger and is more of a liability against the Run than Dugger.

Over the last 3 years, Dugger gave up 114 receptions on 169 targets (67.5%) while allowing 9 TDs and making 9 picks and 2.5 sacks
Over the last 3 years, Simmons gave up 100 receptions on 149 target (67.1%) while allowing 10 TDs making 13 picks and 2.5 sacks.

Saying that he's a Glorified LB who played FS but put up numbers just as good as Simmons did isn't really the Flex you think it is..

 

[DaBruinz]

Doesn't the 2nd year tag come with a 20% tax on top of the top safety average?

It's a 20% increase over the previous year. it's the 3rd tag that is most expensive as it's the same tag as the most expensive position (QB).

 

[Pape]

Honestly? Trade him for a 4, and sign Simmons for less $$ who is a much better FS.

$13.8 is too rich for a glorified LB.

Play the long game. Keep him for a year if they can't negotiate a long term extension. If he walks next year, hopefully that will net us a 3rd compensatory pick if he gets a deal based on what he thinks he's worth

 

[Triumph]

You know there’s something seriously wrong when Dugger is making more than a 2 time Pro Bowl/2 time All Pro Safety Kevin Byard and 6 time Pro Bowl/2 time All Pro Harrison Smith. They are only 2-3 years apart.

The Tag (transition or franchise) is a 1 year death sentence.

If Dugger suffers serious injury his opportunity at a lucrative new contract could be over. It worked out for Chris Jones ok, but I figure that he must have had some verbal guarantee that KC would step up and deliver if he was the good soldier on the Franchise tag.

 

[50-yard-line]

He was upset about it when it was announced back on March 6th.. This isn't news.

I didn't start a new thread on this - my post in the other thread (where I saw nothing indicating Dugger's mindset at the time) was moved by mods to its own thread.

The Pats basically told Dugger to go out and find the Best Deal Possible and they would match it. Like they've done with every one of their High End players. Including Edelman, Bruschi, Thuney, Mankins, Etc..

I know how it works. The players you mention were not transition tagged. They were told to go out and see and come back with the offer. Once that tag is in place, negotiating becomes much harder, because you're asking a team to tie up millions in cap for a player they might not even sign, weakening them in the FA period for several days.

Also, these negotiations often take a lot of time and energy and in that frenetic period, I doubt people want to spin their wheels in mud.

Instead of whining in the media, he should have talked to people who went through it so he could manage expectations.

Dugger should be pissed at other teams not wanting to pay safeties in General. Look at all the Vets who got CUT. Adams, Simmons, Diggs, Jackson, ,Hyde, Maye, Phillips, Neal, etc..

I'm guessing that most of the safeties on the market weren't happy that S became the position of dump this year.

Given that, if the Pats hadn't tagged Dugger, they probably could have more easily come to terms with him if they really want to keep him, as he wouldn't have gotten any offers beyond their capabilities, right? And he wouldn't have any reason to aim his dissatisfaction at them.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I didn't start a new thread on this - my post in the other thread (where I saw nothing indicating Dugger's mindset at the time) was moved by mods to its own thread.

I know how it works. The players you mention were not transition tagged. They were told to go out and see and come back with the offer. Once that tag is in place, negotiating becomes much harder, because you're asking a team to tie up millions in cap for a player they might not even sign, weakening them in the FA period for several days.

Also, these negotiations often take a lot of time and energy and in that frenetic period, I doubt people want to spin their wheels in mud.

I'm guessing that most of the safeties on the market weren't happy that S became the position of dump this year.

Given that, if the Pats hadn't tagged Dugger, they probably could have more easily come to terms with him if they really want to keep him, as he wouldn't have gotten any offers beyond their capabilities, right? And he wouldn't have any reason to aim his dissatisfaction at them.

Your right, every team knows they'll match so they won't waste time. Pats might have been better off doing it the other way because the offer they match might have been less than what they're paying this year.

 

[PatsFan2]

Newsflash stop the presses.

 

[upstater1]

I didn't start a new thread on this - my post in the other thread (where I saw nothing indicating Dugger's mindset at the time) was moved by mods to its own thread.

I know how it works. The players you mention were not transition tagged. They were told to go out and see and come back with the offer. Once that tag is in place, negotiating becomes much harder, because you're asking a team to tie up millions in cap for a player they might not even sign, weakening them in the FA period for several days.

Also, these negotiations often take a lot of time and energy and in that frenetic period, I doubt people want to spin their wheels in mud.

I'm guessing that most of the safeties on the market weren't happy that S became the position of dump this year.

Given that, if the Pats hadn't tagged Dugger, they probably could have more easily come to terms with him if they really want to keep him, as he wouldn't have gotten any offers beyond their capabilities, right? And he wouldn't have any reason to aim his dissatisfaction at them.

A few safeties have signed for $17m a year.

 

[upstater1]

There’s no way the Patriots (or anyone else) are paying Dugger $21m. He’s not an all purpose safety. Great in the in-the-box safety role but not great in coverage. He’s a tier below the best safety’s in the league who make between $16m -$19m.

I was responding to the idea that we would tag him. I said it was prohibitive.

 

[DaBruinz]

I know how it works. The players you mention were not transition tagged. They were told to go out and see and come back with the offer. Once that tag is in place, negotiating becomes much harder, because you're asking a team to tie up millions in cap for a player they might not even sign, weakening them in the FA period for several days.

The money only get's "tied up" if the Patriots refuse to match the offer. Then the signing is official. Until it's official, the money isn't tied up.

Given that, if the Pats hadn't tagged Dugger, they probably could have more easily come to terms with him if they really want to keep him, as he wouldn't have gotten any offers beyond their capabilities, right? And he wouldn't have any reason to aim his dissatisfaction at them.

If the Pats could have more easily come to terms with Dugger, it would have happened. I'm convinced that it isn't the AAV that was the issue but the length of the contract. As I've pointed out in other threads, the Pats have refused to sign players to contracts that would take them beyond Age 30 with the exception of Henry. While Bourne's deal is a 3 year deal, the Pats can cut him after 2024 with minimal cap hit. If Dugger wanted a longer term deal say 3-4yrs and the Pats weren't willing to offer that, they should have told him to go get a contract and they'd work out a trade.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

LBs are making $19.9M on the Transition and $24 on the Franchise Tag because EDGE players are considered LBs.

If you look at just the LB position w/o the EDGE players, the Top 5 salaries are:
20M, 19.045M, 18M, 15M, and 14.165M.
The average of those is $17.242M Which is just slightly more than the Franchise tag for Safety at $17.123M

Trading him for a 4th rounder is silly. Justin Simmons is 3 years older than Dugger and is more of a liability against the Run than Dugger.

Over the last 3 years, Dugger gave up 114 receptions on 169 targets (67.5%) while allowing 9 TDs and making 9 picks and 2.5 sacks
Over the last 3 years, Simmons gave up 100 receptions on 149 target (67.1%) while allowing 10 TDs making 13 picks and 2.5 sacks.

Saying that he's a Glorified LB who played FS but put up numbers just as good as Simmons did isn't really the Flex you think it is..

What an odd ending to an otherwise decent post. “Flex”? What are we 19?

I just don’t see Duggar as a top 10 safety…

Who fears him in coverage?

You are certainly entitled to disagree.

 

[DaBruinz]

What an odd ending to an otherwise decent post. “Flex”? What are we 19?

I just don’t see Duggar as a top 10 safety…

Who fears him in coverage?

You are certainly entitled to disagree.

What you see or don't see don't matter one bit in the scheme of things. I just gave you numbers for the player you wanted to replace Duggerf and because it shows that the guy you want is no better than Dugger, you spin your shtick. You think SIMMONS is feared in Coverage? He gave up nearly identical percentage as Dugger.

Every "argument" you've had to this point has been shoddy at best. They certainly aren't backed up by facts.

- You claimed Dugger was a "glorified LB". I showed you that LBs actually get more money.
- You claimed that Simmons was better in coverage. I showed that they are nearly identical in coverage.
- You claimed that Simmons will be cheaper, but ignore the fact that Dugger is 2+ years younger than Simmons.

The facts don't support the opinions you've put up. Instead of admitting to being wrong, you've basically taken issue with the accurate portrayal of your entire opinion. Which is that you tried to denigrate a player with your flayed opinions only to have them backfire in your face because the facts show that the "glorified LB" played just as well as the "Pro-Bowl FS".

 

[50-yard-line]

The money only get's "tied up" if the Patriots refuse to match the offer. Then the signing is official. Until it's official, the money isn't tied up.

Are you sure about that? If they offer the contract, they're obligated to see it through if the Pats don't match. Can they then go out and sign other FAs that would put them over the CAP if that happened? The league has to approve all contracts, right?