Joe Staley? What is wrong with O'Call/Kazcur?

[sebman2112]

What's up with being so condenscending? Just a spirited discussion but now I feel like I need to defend myself:

1: AFCC - It exhibited one thing clearly: depth is an issue on defense. It was the biggest meltdown statistically speaking in the history of the NFL's championship games (thats 82 played). Thats an pretty objective statement. If you want to blame that on the offense, I'd say "hmm, scoring 30+ points is a pretty good offensive performance - good enough to win every other game BB has ever coached in fact".

2. MLB - wow - do you want to have a conversation about the topic of discussion or semantics.

3. Is the fact that Bruschi had a stroke make him any more likely/unlikely to return as if he had a heart attack. Address the point: Bruschi's liklehood to contribute next year is as questionable as O'callaghan.

4. Yes - they are freak injuries and YES - you can't account for them. But do you think you ever recover from a serious injury 100%? If you don't think injuries of this magnitude won't manifest themselves again down the line you are crazy. Especially with 30+ yr old players.

5. I guess we watched different games last year. Hawkins was woeful against better passing attacks. I think Le Kevin Smith could run faster to a hot dog truck than Hawkins could run down a TE running open in the secondary on turf.

I had problems with him on ESPN, so his being condenscending is nothing new to me.

 

[sebman2112]

By the way, I started this post to answer the following question:

"Is neither O'callaghan nor Kazcur a good enough to start next year?" They are young with 3 yrs experience between them. Is their upside limited?

O'Callaghan had multiple head injuries last year....

 

[cstjohn17]

I think it is simple, the position can be upgraded. O'Cal and Kaczur have been serviceable but the NFL is not about development, it is about production.

This chart from bostonsportsmedia.com is a good outline of the positions the Patriots are looking at in the draft. Almost all positions are represented because almost all the units would be improved with a 1st round pick including Oline.

Looking a little deeper, the running game was very inconsistent last year. Not all related to the OLine but they were part of the issue. Jimmy Johnson was asked how to build a championship team, he said "Be dominant on the offensive and defensive line and then get an elite QB", we have 2 of the 3. I would love to see our O line be upgraded and the way the draft boards are breaking there looks to be value at RT/OG late in round one.

 

[spacecrime]

What you are ignoring is that the Offense couldn't stay on the field. Because the offense couldn't stay on the field, the defense got tired. Do you understand now?

The defense got tired not because they came back on the field, but because they were so bad they couldn;t get OFF the field.

No defense ever got tired because the offense went three-and-out. A good defense forces the other team to also go three-and-out. Youk don't get tired by sitting on the bench for half the game.

The defense gets tired when THEY cannot get off the field. How long a defense stays on the field for any one series has nothing to do with the offense. They can stay for two minutes or twenty. In the AFCCG, it was closer to twenty, but don't blame the OLine because we couldn't stop the Colts on third down.

1st off, I did go there and its a perfectly VALID argument.

Mind taking a minute to explain how the RT having a history of concussions results in the defense allowing long, time-chewing drives?

 

[bunzoburns]

I have had a gut feeling that one of the picks will be OL. I haven't been able to watch the Colts game but I seem to remember defenders in the backfield everytime the running back was handed the ball.

 

[sebman2112]

I have had a gut feeling that one of the picks will be OL. I haven't been able to watch the Colts game but I seem to remember defenders in the backfield everytime the running back was handed the ball.

That's the other problem people seem to forget. I see people talk about Maroney not being effective against the Colts, but I don't see people talk about how he didn't have two feet of room before two people were on him. They tackled him right behind the LOS, and sometimes got their just after the ball. I'd still rather they take an O-Linemen later in the draft.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

1st off, I did go there and its a perfectly VALID argument.

2ndly, We don't have a starting MLB. We have 2 starting ILBs.

3rdly, Bruschi didn't have a heart attack. He had a stroke.

4th, Our 2 starting safeties are Eugene Wilson and Rodney Harrison. They've been hit with catastrophic injuries that you can't plan for. They were freak accidents.

5th, Sanders and Hawkins showed they were more than capable as starters. The issue was with the LBs not being able to cover the Colts TEs because they were exhausted.

Agreed.

Just to add, the Pats were only one 1st down away from winning the SB. Whenever, we needed a TD, we settled for FGs, when we needed a 1st down on our next to last possession, we failed. Moreover, the Pats offense was deficient all year in producing long TD drives. That and they seldom ran to their right. OC was had in the 5th beacuse of his injury history at Cal and Kaczur, a LT at Toledo, really struggled at RT.

I always thought that Light's ideal position is RT. He's a mediocre pass blocker, but an excellent run blocker. I wouldn't mind seeing them take Staley at #24.

BTW, Dallas signing of Ken Hamiln means that they won't be looking at FS with the 22nd pick. Staley could be their pick.

 

[AD#96]

i always liked o'call. never understood why he got benched because he looked REALLY good. maybe he wasnt ready, didnt know he playbook and stuff. i fully expect him to win the starting job at RT next season. kaczur just plain sucked. one game i remember, o'call dominated shaun ellis. next time we met the jets kaczur gets destroyed by ellis (we lost the game because kaczur gave up the sack + forced fumble in the last minute)

 

[sebman2112]

i always liked o'call. never understood why he got benched because he looked REALLY good. maybe he wasnt ready, didnt know he playbook and stuff. i fully expect him to win the starting job at RT next season. kaczur just plain sucked. one game i remember, o'call dominated shaun ellis. next time we met the jets kaczur gets destroyed by ellis (we lost the game because kaczur gave up the sack + forced fumble in the last minute)

He didn't get benched. O'Callaghan had head injuries

 

[JackBauer]

I think it is simple, the position can be upgraded. O'Cal and Kaczur have been serviceable but the NFL is not about development, it is about production.

This chart from bostonsportsmedia.com is a good outline of the positions the Patriots are looking at in the draft. Almost all positions are represented because almost all the units would be improved with a 1st round pick including Oline.

Looking a little deeper, the running game was very inconsistent last year. Not all related to the OLine but they were part of the issue. Jimmy Johnson was asked how to build a championship team, he said "Be dominant on the offensive and defensive line and then get an elite QB", we have 2 of the 3. I would love to see our O line be upgraded and the way the draft boards are breaking there looks to be value at RT/OG late in round one.

I know. Because they're so much worse than Ashworth and Gorin were.

Kaczur isn't as bad as some are claiming, but he's definitely more suited to play LT than RT.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

If the Patriots take Joe Staley, it won't be because they feel they can't find a decent RT out of the four options they currently have, but because they feel Staley is competition/insurance for Light on the left side.

He's got many attributes the Pats look for in a blind side tackle; former tight end, not overly tall so he can get blocks down on quick edge rushers, and he's reputedly a good run blocker to boot. Kaczur and Bubin are similar sizes, but Kaczur has always played stiff and "technical" to me, and Bubin hasn't been able to crack an NFL roster yet. Staley by accounts is a rare atheletic talent who's a bit of an X factor due to the comparaitvely low-level of competition he faced.

Since none of us are the Pats, and can't grade these prospect, I'll never be "shocked" about who the Pats take, nor can I in my right mind "disagree" with whoever they select, I trust their scouting procedures. I don't, however, trust SI's scouting and mocking procedures. I think they choose Staley and pitched him as right tackle help because they looked at Matt Light and saw he made the Pro Bowl this year, and looked at the other side and saw three different starters, and said "Hmmm, they're weak there, Belichick doesn't like any of 'em." Then they looked at the drafting history and saw two offensive lineman going as the first Pats selections (Adrian Klemm, Logan Mankins) and Matt Light, who also went high. I doubt they have any more information on the Pats' evaluations then we do.

Then again, if anyone is likely to be right using the black magic approach, its Don Banks, who lives in the area and accurately predicted the Super Bowl this year... in July.

I think that your spot on here, maybe even put Staley at LT and move Light to RT. Light has been great, but he has seriously trouble with speed rushers, although he did a fantastic job on Merriman, but the Taylors and Freeneys of the worl eat him up.

 

[PATSNUTme]

If we go OL in the first round, I'll be pissed. then I'll declare the pick to be the greatest thing since John Hannah.

The most pressing need on this team is ILB. The best ILB in this draft (and the last two, I would add) is Patrick Willis. All the others are a step down.

Doesn't it make sense to trade up, if we have to and if we get a trading partner, to take the best player at a position of need and have that postion covered for the next five years?

 

[cstjohn17]

If we go OL in the first round, I'll be pissed. then I'll declare the pick to be the greatest thing since John Hannah.

The most pressing need on this team is ILB. The best ILB in this draft (and the last two, I would add) is Patrick Willis. All the others are a step down.

Doesn't it make sense to trade up, if we have to and if we get a trading partner, to take the best player at a position of need and have that postion covered for the next five years?

No, it doesn't make sense. Willis is not in the same league as AJ Hawk, Vilma and other recent stud ILB.

I would much rather see the Patriots draft two very good players who will contribute at a high level for 5 years than take a risk on an undersized ILB with injury concerns.

Choose from any of these positions WR, OL, S, CB, DE/OLB, imagine we drafted 2 good players and the impact it would have on the overall team depth and talent level.

Example - draft a CB (Ross, Revis, Houston) or an O Lineman (Staley, Brown, Blalock, Sears, Ugoh)

Impact to roster:
CB becomes position of strengh (Samuel, Hobbs, DRAFT PICK, Scott, Hobbs)
OL becomes even better (Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, DRAFT PICK)

Can you ever really have two many good players in the trenches? or really can you ever have too many good players at any position?

 

[sebman2112]

No, it doesn't make sense. Willis is not in the same league as AJ Hawk, Vilma and other recent stud ILB.

I would much rather see the Patriots draft two very good players who will contribute at a high level for 5 years than take a risk on an undersized ILB with injury concerns.

Choose from any of these positions WR, OL, S, CB, DE/OLB, imagine we drafted 2 good players and the impact it would have on the overall team depth and talent level.

Example - draft a CB (Ross, Revis, Houston) or an O Lineman (Staley, Brown, Blalock, Sears, Ugoh)

Impact to roster:
CB becomes position of strengh (Samuel, Hobbs, DRAFT PICK, Scott, Hobbs)
OL becomes even better (Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, DRAFT PICK)

Can you ever really have two many good players in the trenches? or really can you ever have too many good players at any position?

You're wrong about Willis, he's a big time stud

 

[PATSNUTme]

No, it doesn't make sense. Willis is not in the same league as AJ Hawk, Vilma and other recent stud ILB.

You are right. Willis could be better than both.

I would much rather see the Patriots draft two very good players who will contribute at a high level for 5 years than take a risk on an undersized ILB with injury concerns.

Choose from any of these positions WR, OL, S, CB, DE/OLB, imagine we drafted 2 good players and the impact it would have on the overall team depth and talent level.

Example - draft a CB (Ross, Revis, Houston) or an O Lineman (Staley, Brown, Blalock, Sears, Ugoh)

Impact to roster:
CB becomes position of strengh (Samuel, Hobbs, DRAFT PICK, Scott, Hobbs)
OL becomes even better (Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, DRAFT PICK)

Can you ever really have two many good players in the trenches? or really can you ever have too many good players at any position?

We will see on 4/28.

 

[AD#96]

He didn't get benched. O'Callaghan had head injuries

oh ok. it all makes sense now.

 

[skaIownsIyou]

***BZZZZT***

Hawkins and Sanders last year were servicable. Nothing great at all.

Hawkins lack of speed forced LB's to cover the slot reciever while Sanders was dropping back playing zone in case of deep outs to Harrison or Wayne.

There was a perfect video showing this online a while ago.

actually in a man cover, with the FS dropping back to deep zone, if the slot receiver is lined up on the weak side, like manning likes it, the ROLB will come in and cover the slot, and the SS will cover the TE lined up on the strong side, both ILB's will be covering the back field, if its just one rb, then one of the ILB's will be on double man on the TE or he'd be the 4th man in...

a 1 safety deep man coverage usually has double man coverage on one player, or has a 4th/5th guy as a blitz

and by far, hawkins can outrun anyone of the LB's, thats why he plays the safety spot, he's not as fast a prototypical CB, but he has better coverage skills and more speed than a LB does...BB likes his LB's who can tackle, not necessarily the guys who can keep up with most WR's...and these days, teams prefer to go with one speedy receiving TE, and one blocking TE, usually the receiving TE will get more action

if the opposing defense comes out in a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB set, the 3-4 defense basically turns into a nickel defense in a way....

in that one peice of film you mention, it was just player assignment for that one defensive call....

you can make the same arguement for the nfcc game....the reggie bush 80 yrd td pass from brees, brees saw that urlacher was covering bush, so he set bush on the slot, since urlacher assignment was to the HB, he had no choice but to come out to the slot, and was burned by bush.....you could say, "in that one peice of film, since the bear's SS was too slow, urlacher had to come out and cover bush...." but since it was just the player assignment of that specific defensive call, brees was able to exploit the mismatch....

in the afcc game....the tired pats defense was against manning, and as we know manning is always changing the play trying to exploit the weakness in the defense

 

[skaIownsIyou]

No, it doesn't make sense. Willis is not in the same league as AJ Hawk, Vilma and other recent stud ILB.

I would much rather see the Patriots draft two very good players who will contribute at a high level for 5 years than take a risk on an undersized ILB with injury concerns.

Choose from any of these positions WR, OL, S, CB, DE/OLB, imagine we drafted 2 good players and the impact it would have on the overall team depth and talent level.

Example - draft a CB (Ross, Revis, Houston) or an O Lineman (Staley, Brown, Blalock, Sears, Ugoh)

Impact to roster:
CB becomes position of strengh (Samuel, Hobbs, DRAFT PICK, Scott, Hobbs)
OL becomes even better (Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, DRAFT PICK)

Can you ever really have two many good players in the trenches? or really can you ever have too many good players at any position?

while you make a perfectly valid arguement, and in the past, we've seen the pats take the best player available instead of the position of need,

willis can be, and probably will turn out to be better than hawk or vilma...

just because you come out of college as one of the best LB's doesnt necessarily mean you're going to be the same in the NFL

we all know the GB defense is...well...terrible....hawk had to step up right when he was drafted, and be one of the stud's on the defense, the DB defensive scheme may be different from the OSU defensive scheme, and since hawk came in and started right away, he didn't really have any mentoring or words of advice that had any true value, that could contribute to making his OLB into a force to be game planned against...hawk has to coem in and learn on his own, and b/c of the speed of the game, he'll often times misread the offensive and get terrible jumps off he snap

for vilma.....his whole career playing at ILB, he has played a 4-3 scheme, and hates 3-4...he has already made himself into a very very good ILB...in a 4-3 scheme....but now he has to start over, and learn the BB style 3-4...as mangina has come in and changed the defense...and without anyone helping him learn the 3-4 system like a vrabel or a bruschi, he'll have to slow the game down and he'll also make misreads....

for a new player like willis or posluzny, he'll have time on the bench to learn the BB 3-4, and if he has any questions he'll have a vrabel or bruschi to mentor him...so they can fix their technique faster than vilma or hawk, and they'll become more productive


but i completely agree with you witht he joe staley thing....the signing of thomas automatically gives more flexiblity for the pats to draft for depth in another position... and then just draft a LB in the 2nd or 3rd, maybe on the 2nd day...BB knows what he is doing and will make the best possible choice come draft day

 

[Fencer]

RT is the only OL position they're realistically going to upgrade (unless you want to argue that a new OT will take LT and push Light to the right side, and I DON'T want to have that discussion until after the individual in question has been identified, and has faced NFL rushers).

Light and the interior guys are locked in.

But we've seen plenty of starting RTs not make the roster in recent years.

 

[cstjohn17]

That is a good point, one of the reasons Willis (or any other LB) would be appealing in round 1 is that you have the player signed for 5 years. And at LB is is pretty much assumed the player would not be a fulltime starter until year 2 at the earliest.

while you make a perfectly valid arguement, and in the past, we've seen the pats take the best player available instead of the position of need,

willis can be, and probably will turn out to be better than hawk or vilma...

just because you come out of college as one of the best LB's doesnt necessarily mean you're going to be the same in the NFL

we all know the GB defense is...well...terrible....hawk had to step up right when he was drafted, and be one of the stud's on the defense, the DB defensive scheme may be different from the OSU defensive scheme, and since hawk came in and started right away, he didn't really have any mentoring or words of advice that had any true value, that could contribute to making his OLB into a force to be game planned against...hawk has to coem in and learn on his own, and b/c of the speed of the game, he'll often times misread the offensive and get terrible jumps off he snap

for vilma.....his whole career playing at ILB, he has played a 4-3 scheme, and hates 3-4...he has already made himself into a very very good ILB...in a 4-3 scheme....but now he has to start over, and learn the BB style 3-4...as mangina has come in and changed the defense...and without anyone helping him learn the 3-4 system like a vrabel or a bruschi, he'll have to slow the game down and he'll also make misreads....

for a new player like willis or posluzny, he'll have time on the bench to learn the BB 3-4, and if he has any questions he'll have a vrabel or bruschi to mentor him...so they can fix their technique faster than vilma or hawk, and they'll become more productive


but i completely agree with you witht he joe staley thing....the signing of thomas automatically gives more flexiblity for the pats to draft for depth in another position... and then just draft a LB in the 2nd or 3rd, maybe on the 2nd day...BB knows what he is doing and will make the best possible choice come draft day