Is Josh McDaniels any good?

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

I know what I think and I know what I see, and very often they end up being the same thing. Maybe i shouldnt have said EVERY TIME, since you seem to be playing the semantics game, but it happens very often. Thats not an exaggeration.

And the running on 2nd down after an incompletion is accurate, the statistics back that up. I believe against Cincy the play calling was 5/5 on second down running plays after an incomplete pass.

Say what you want to deny it, but it is what it is.

I'm counting roughly 54 incompletions by Brady and 25 runs on 2nd and 10, so even if every single one of those rushes followed an incompletion they're under 50%. I'm pulling my numbers from Game Play Finder & Super Bowl Play Finder - Pro-Football-Reference.com and Game Play Finder & Super Bowl Play Finder - Pro-Football-Reference.com do you care to post were you're getting your stats?

 

[Bartmac36]

Tell you what.... Feel free to take a look at the box score from this Jets game. Get back to me about that "running on 2nd down..." stuff. If that's not enough, go back to the Saints game from last week. Then go take a look at that Bengals game, and look at the plays at 1:57 and 1:50 of the second quarter, and at 1:48 and 1:44 of the fourth quarter.

As for the rest: like I said, you're choosing a falsely remembered version of reality that fits your gripe rather than the actual reality.

And don't try pulling out the "semantics" argument when you deliberately went all caps with the "EVERY SINGLE play" line.

The reason I have a gripe in the first place is the poor play calling. You seem to think I made up a gripe and statistics to back up my made up gripe. What sense would that make?

And I used caps to make a point, I wasnt answering a math equation where the answer has to be dead on down to a decimal point. You are too hung up on the literal aspect of the words. You are 100% right that they dont do it EVERY PLAY, but im sure most people knew what i was really getting at.

I guess its really a matter of opinions though, and mine is that I have seen it enough with my own two eyes, watching every game start to finish, to confidently say they are too predicable in several situations, and I have felt that way for 7 games now, I dont think it is a coincidence or false remembering because I am a realist, as much as my passion tells me to be a homer, I always look at things objectively.

The McDaniels thing has reached a point with me where I needed to vent about it. That is all.

 

[Deus Irae]

The reason I have a gripe in the first place is the poor play calling. You seem to think I made up a gripe and statistics to back up my made up gripe. What sense would that make?

And I used caps to make a point, I wasnt answering a math equation where the answer has to be dead on down to a decimal point. You are too hung up on the literal aspect of the words. You are 100% right that they dont do it EVERY PLAY, but im sure most people knew what i was really getting at.

I guess its really a matter of opinions though, and mine is that I have seen it enough with my own two eyes, watching every game start to finish, to confidently say they are too predicable in several situations, and I have felt that way for 7 games now, I dont think it is a coincidence or false remembering because I am a realist, as much as my passion tells me to be a homer, I always look at things objectively.

The McDaniels thing has reached a point with me where I needed to vent about it. That is all.

You got the stats wrong and you're arguing straw men. Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, Josh McDaniels has been the Patriots offensive coordinator for 4 full seasons, plus this year. In that time, he's called the plays for 2 of the top 5 scoring offenses of all time, gotten 410 points (8th in NFL in scoring) out of Matt Cassel's first year as a starter, and helped take his team to 2 AFCCGs and a Super Bowl. Since McDaniels was named the O.C., a Brady/McDaniels pairing has never failed to at least reach the AFCCG.

Your claim that your griping about his playcalling is somehow "objective" is absurd. With so many valid areas to complain about with this team, why do you choose one which is invalid?

 

[Bartmac36]

You got the stats wrong and you're arguing straw men. Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, Josh McDaniels has been the Patriots offensive coordinator for 4 full seasons, plus this year. In that time, he's called the plays for 2 of the top 5 scoring offenses of all time, gotten 410 points (8th in NFL in scoring) out of Matt Cassel's first year as a starter, and helped take his team to 2 AFCCGs and a Super Bowl. Since McDaniels was named the O.C., a Brady/McDaniels pairing has never failed to at least reach the AFCCG.

Your claim that your griping about his playcalling is somehow "objective" is absurd. With so many valid areas to complain about with this team, why do you choose one which is invalid?

Brady has also been the QB of these historic offenses, and yet he is hardly playing historic this year. If a player can decline, why is it so hard for you to accept a coach can do the same? Granted the offensive talent isnt what it once was.

There are a number of problems with this team. Playcalling is absolutely valid as one of them. So is injuries, and the lack of playmakers on offense. Of all these problems, the only one that can really be controlled is the playcalling. And that is my gripe.

McDaniels is doing nothing to help this offense by routinely putting them in 3rd and long situations. And I have also heard the argument that the players need to execute the plays that are called. Well when the plays that are called routinely arent executed, why not switch to plays that the players actually ARE executing, rather than calling them all the time, in every game.

Since I am objective, I will admit that my frustration plays a part in my view of this situation, but the reason I am frustrated is because he doesnt make any adjustments when he should. Or he waits until late in the game to make them.

 

[Ivan]

I get frustrated with some of the too cute stuff but MacDanielss coordinated the 1st and 3rd highest scoring offenses of all time, hard to say someone with that track record sucks. i do think he did a lousy job yesterday but sh.t happens.

 

[oldskool138]

I get frustrated with some of the too cute stuff but MacDanielss coordinated the 1st and 3rd highest scoring offenses of all time, hard to say someone with that track record sucks. i do think he did a lousy job yesterday but sh.t happens.

He also got fired from two jobs (one of them a head coaching job) and drafted Tim Tebow in the first round.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady has also been the QB of these historic offenses, and yet he is hardly playing historic this year. If a player can decline, why is it so hard for you to accept a coach can do the same? Granted the offensive talent isnt what it once was.

You dismissively put the "granted" at the end, in passing, as if it's irrelevant. More proof of that 'objectivity'? Brady/McDaniels has gone every game this season, up until this last game, without the team's top 5 receivers from last year, and starting a pair of rookie WRs. The team has had no reliable RB receiver out of the backfield because of Woodhead's departure combined with Vereen's injury. The team's had nobody to threaten the middle of the field in either the short range (1-10 yards) or the deep range (20+ yards), because Amendola and Gronk have been hurt.

All that, and "granted...." :singing:

There are a number of problems with this team. Playcalling is absolutely valid as one of them.

No, it's not.

So is injuries, and the lack of playmakers on offense. Of all these problems, the only one that can really be controlled is the playcalling. And that is my gripe.

No, your gripe is that the offense is struggling and the team has lost two games. Your scapegoat, foolishly, is the playcalling. Big difference.

McDaniels is doing nothing to help this offense by routinely putting them in 3rd and long situations. And I have also heard the argument that the players need to execute the plays that are called. Well when the plays that are called routinely arent executed, why not switch to plays that the players actually ARE executing, rather than calling them all the time, in every game.

Do you now expect McDaniels to go out there and catch all the footballs that Dobson, Thompkins and Edelman are dropping? Is McDaniels going to take Wendell's spot on the line so that the Patriots get better O-line play? Short of that, you've got no point here.

Since I am objective, I will admit that my frustration plays a part in my view of this situation, but the reason I am frustrated is because he doesnt make any adjustments when he should. Or he waits until late in the game to make them.

You're not being objective at all, as I demonstrated by pointing out the objective facts in response to your completely subjective (and incorrect) gripes (see false 'stats') earlier.

 

[Deus Irae]

He also got fired from two jobs (one of them a head coaching job) and drafted Tim Tebow in the first round.

McDaniels wasn't fired by the Rams, so what's the other job he was fired from?

 

[Ivan]

He also got fired from two jobs (one of them a head coaching job) and drafted Tim Tebow in the first round.

How does that have anything to do with his performance as OC of the Patriots. Belichick was fired by the Browns....................

 

[Bartmac36]

You dismissively put the "granted" at the end, in passing, as if it's irrelevant. More proof of that 'objectivity'? Brady/McDaniels has gone every game this season, up until this last game, without the team's top 5 receivers from last year, and starting a pair of rookie WRs. The team has had no reliable RB receiver out of the backfield because of Woodhead's departure combined with Vereen's injury. The team's had nobody to threaten the middle of the field in either the short range (1-10 yards) or the deep range (20+ yards), because Amendola and Gronk have been hurt.

All that, and "granted...." :singing:




No, it's not.



No, your gripe is that the offense is struggling and the team has lost two games. Your scapegoat, foolishly, is the playcalling. Big difference.



Do you now expect McDaniels to go out there and catch all the footballs that Dobson, Thompkins and Edelman are dropping? Is McDaniels going to take Wendell's spot on the line so that the Patriots get better O-line play? Short of that, you've got no point here.



You're not being objective at all, as I demonstrated by pointing out the objective facts in response to your completely subjective (and incorrect) gripes (see false 'stats') earlier.

Someone is the ultimate McDaniels apologist..

 

[mgteich]

Let's see.

In the 2012, we had one the best offenses in the NFL, guided by a top OC.

In 2013, we have a mediocre offense, guided by a lousy OC.

I suppose this make sense to someone. Josh didn't regress since last year.
========================

The reality is that, we are doing well to be 5-2. The execution by the wide receivers has not been very good at all. And playing without a replacement for Woodhead really sucks.

Josh has adapted; he really has. He dumbed down the offense when it was clear that the rookies were totally lost. He has brought the rookies along. There is simply a lot further to go. And missing Amendola and Vereen is huge.

We are greatly handicapped by not being able to run a no-huddle for more than a play, by not having adequate outlet receivers, by not being able to count on the wideouts, and by not having a 3rd down back. As someone said on another thread, we probably shouldn't be expecting any more at this point.

 

[oldskool138]

McDaniels wasn't fired by the Rams, so what's the other job he was fired from?

My apologies. I thought he was canned by the Rams.

 

[Deus Irae]

Someone is a the ultimate McDaniels apologist..

I'm defending a guy from really stupid attacks by people who can't be bothered to think before posting. You're making claims which have been shown to be false. I like my position a hell of a lot better than I'd like yours. As I said before, there are plenty of valid reasons to complain about this team. You've just chosen one that's not among them. You want some issues, here you go....

• Not re-signing Welker
• Not keeping Lloyd
• Not bringing in better DT depth during the early offseason, especially run stopper depth
• Not upgrading at S2 during the offseason
• Not bringing in a Cover LB during the offseason, instead choosing to draft a DE/LB who doesn't cover well and can't stand against the run as a rookie
• Paying Arrington starter money when he's really a slot/zone guy
• Not upgrading at least one of the C/RG positions
• Giving "The Prisoner" big bucks, even knowing there were issues there

That's a pretty good-sized starting list to complain about. Some are defensible, some are not, but they are all far more valid complaints than *****ing about the play calling.

 

[Kdo5]

I have my disagreements w/Josh's play calling at times but ultimately it is woeful execution that is the problem.

 

[Bartmac36]

I'm defending a guy from really stupid attacks by people who can't be bothered to think before posting. You're making claims which have been shown to be false. I like my position a hell of a lot better than I'd like yours. As I said before, there are plenty of valid reasons to complain about this team. You've just chosen one that's not among them. You want some issues, here you go....

• Not re-signing Welker
• Not keeping Lloyd
• Not bringing in better DT depth during the early offseason, especially run stopper depth
• Not upgrading at S2 during the offseason
• Not bringing in a Cover LB during the offseason, instead choosing to draft a DE/LB who doesn't cover well and can't stand against the run as a rookie
• Paying Arrington starter money when he's really a slot/zone guy
• Not upgrading at least one of the C/RG positions
• Giving "The Prisoner" big bucks, even knowing there were issues there

That's a pretty good-sized starting list to complain about. Some are defensible, some are not, but they are all far more valid complaints than *****ing about the play calling.

Which is why, in an earlier comment, I said the ONE THING they can control right now out of all the issues is playcalling, and that is leaving a lot to be desired. And Ive only used one statistic in my argument so far, and that is the 5/5 running after an incompetion on first down from Cincinnati. That is not false, why do you keep saying it is?

 

[Deus Irae]

....And missing ... Vereen is huge...

I just wanted to re-emphasize this.

Last season, Woodhead had 40 receptions, and he averaged 11.2 yards per catch.

This season, the RBs combined have 28 receptions and are averaging just 7.5 yards per catch. Bolden, who caught only 2 passes all last season and is the team's current leading RB receiver, has 100 yards on 15 catches (6.7 ypc) to go along with drops, missed receptions due to stopping on routes, and the like. The team is being forced to throw to the RBS more often, but with much less impressive results.

The loss of Woodhead has been huge, particularly coupled with the injury to Vereen.

 

[Deus Irae]

Which is why, in an earlier comment, I said the ONE THING they can control right now out of all the issues is playcalling, and that is leaving a lot to be desired. And Ive only used one statistic in my argument so far, and that is the 5/5 running after an incompetion on first down from Cincinnati. That is not false, why do you keep saying it is?

It's false, and I pointed you to a pair of times where they ran after incompletions in that game. Here they are again:

2 1:57 1 10 CIN 42 Tom Brady pass incomplete short left intended for Danny Amendola
2 1:50 2 10 CIN 42 Tom Brady pass complete short right to Aaron Dobson for -4 yards (tackle by Chris Crocker) 1.03

4 1:48 1 10 NWE 35 Tom Brady pass incomplete short right intended for Brandon Bolden
4 1:44 2 10 NWE 35 Tom Brady pass incomplete short middle intended for Julian Edelman

New England Patriots at Cincinnati Bengals - October 6th, 2013 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

NFL.com has the same thing:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013100601/2013/REG5/patriots@bengals#menu=gameinfo&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

 

[Ivan]

I'm defending a guy from really stupid attacks by people who can't be bothered to think before posting. You're making claims which have been shown to be false. I like my position a hell of a lot better than I'd like yours. As I said before, there are plenty of valid reasons to complain about this team. You've just chosen one that's not among them. You want some issues, here you go....

• Not re-signing Welker
• Not keeping Lloyd
• Not bringing in better DT depth during the early offseason, especially run stopper depth
• Not upgrading at S2 during the offseason
• Not bringing in a Cover LB during the offseason, instead choosing to draft a DE/LB who doesn't cover well and can't stand against the run as a rookie
• Paying Arrington starter money when he's really a slot/zone guy
• Not upgrading at least one of the C/RG positions
• Giving "The Prisoner" big bucks, even knowing there were issues there

That's a pretty good-sized starting list to complain about. Some are defensible, some are not, but they are all far more valid complaints than *****ing about the play calling.

lmao, talk about having an agenda. Using this discussion about MacDaniels to rehash your bogus attacks on Belichick's personel decisions is crap. You just cited Ozzie Newsome as the best when in fact he uses Belichick's system for evaluating and picking talent and his team's track record isn't as good as the patriots. Somehow Belichick sucks but his disciple is the best, when in fact both were cited as the best in a 10 year comprehensive study of NFL teams and their drafting.

Oh, and if you can link us to your criticism of Belichick for resigning Hernandez i would love to see it. I don't believe you ever criticized him for it but are now trying to act as though you did.

 

[Deus Irae]

lmao, talk about having an agenda. Using this discussion about MacDaniels to rehash your bogus attacks on Belichick's personel decisions is crap. You just cited Ozzie Newsome as the best when in fact he uses Belichick's system for evaluating and picking talent and his team's track record isn't as good as the patriots. Somehow Belichick sucks but his disciple is the best, when in fact both were cited as the best in a 10 year comprehensive study of NFL teams and their drafting.

Oh, and if you can link us to your criticism of Belichick for resigning Hernandez i would love to see it. I don't believe you ever criticized him for it but are now trying to act as though you did.

I gave a list of things that people can complain about with more validity, in response to posts bashing the play calling. I noted that some were defensible. I also didn't claim that I had an issue with everything I brought up, and I didn't claim it was an exhaustive list, either. That's not an agenda, it's a response. Personally, for example, I don't blame the team for the Hernandez' signing and I'm not particularly worried that they paid more for Arrington than I thought they would offer him.

Feel free to either put me on ignore or learn to read. Either one would be an improvement.

 

[Bartmac36]

It's false, and I pointed you to a pair of times where they ran after incompletions in that game. Here they are again:





New England Patriots at Cincinnati Bengals - October 6th, 2013 - Pro-Football-Reference.com

NFL.com has the same thing:

Watch New England Patriots vs. Cincinnati Bengals [10/06/2013] - NFL.com

I must apologize, I was previously aware of the stats you are mentioning, i just failed to include that the 5/5 did not include plays within the 2 minute warning, during times when the playcalling HAD to be more urgent. So you are right about that technicaly, but my point remains the same.

The only time McDaniels mixed it up was when he had no other choice. Any other time in games he feels perfectly content calling run plays at times this team has no business running.