Is it fair to blame Joe Judge for Special Teams miscues since being hired?

[Froob]

Why are we letting McDaniels off the hook for calling an interception at the goal line?

 

[patchick]

Jones not getting away from the ball is a coaching issue. Jones fumbling when hit in a return is a player issue but becomes a coaching issue if the coaching decision is to still put him out there.

Jones is an absolute cipher. Getting the heck away from the bouncing ball is SO BASIC! You can tell from the behavior of every other Pats player that it's a constant refrain. And Jones isn't new to the job -- he returned 54 punts for Nick Saban last year, 4 of them for touchdowns. He knows the drill, he just seems to have lost his mind.

The rest of the ST corps shows excellent discipline and situational awareness. This is the team that leads the league in opponents' average starting position on the field (or at least they did until this week's fiascos). They've had few penalties and made some very heady plays , including some on Monday night.

So I'm having a hard time blaming Judge for Cyrus Jones's mental block. If I see him field another punt this year, though, I do blame coaching -- and that would be on Belichick, IMO.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Jones is an absolute cipher. Getting the heck away from the bouncing ball is SO BASIC! You can tell from the behavior of every other Pats player that it's a constant refrain. And Jones isn't new to the job -- he returned 54 punts for Nick Saban last year, 4 of them for touchdowns. He knows the drill, he just seems to have lost his mind.

The rest of the ST corps shows excellent discipline and situational awareness. This is the team that leads the league in opponents' average starting position on the field (or at least they did until this week's fiascos). They've had few penalties and made some very heady plays , including some on Monday night.

So I'm having a hard time blaming Judge for Cyrus Jones's mental block. If I see him field another punt this year, though, I do blame coaching -- and that would be on Belichick, IMO.

I still can't imagine what the heck he was trying to do there. Who moves toward a punt that you are not going to catch? It's like he was channeling the ghost of Kyle Williams (who likely cost the Pats SB 46 by handing the NFCCG to the Giants).

 

[Ring 6]

Jones is coached to get away from the ball. Players make mistakes every week in the NFL.

BB is in charge of all personal and decides who sits and who plays. Just like with the NE offense when Ridley was fumbling. All Judge does is follow orders from the top.

The answer is no on blaming Judge.

I'm sure BB isn't giving the coach a pass because players make mistakes. Get away from the ball is a coaching point, getting players to understand and execute coaching points is a coaching skill, situational football is a priority coaching point in New England.
Your understanding of assistant coaches under belichick is uninformed.

 

[Ring 6]

Jones is an absolute cipher. Getting the heck away from the bouncing ball is SO BASIC! You can tell from the behavior of every other Pats player that it's a constant refrain. And Jones isn't new to the job -- he returned 54 punts for Nick Saban last year, 4 of them for touchdowns. He knows the drill, he just seems to have lost his mind.

The rest of the ST corps shows excellent discipline and situational awareness. This is the team that leads the league in opponents' average starting position on the field (or at least they did until this week's fiascos). They've had few penalties and made some very heady plays , including some on Monday night.

So I'm having a hard time blaming Judge for Cyrus Jones's mental block. If I see him field another punt this year, though, I do blame coaching -- and that would be on Belichick, IMO.

I'm surprised you would think coaches are not responsible for their players mental errors. Aside from everything else it almost happened earlier in the game, where was the coaching to drive the point home then.
I'm not excusing jones and blaming the coach I'm blaming both because they are both responsible for this.

 

[archstanton543]

Yes. Totally fair.

 

[ChessToCheckers]

IMO our Special Teams play is generally quite good and a major part of our overall play. When ST gives up 14 points in less than a minute, it highlights just how important that phase really is.

As to assessing Judge as a coach, that's up to BB. Besides, we only see a fraction of what goes on in the Organization.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's fair to give him partial blame. That Jones didn't have the awareness to NOT run toward a bouncing punt while the rest of the team is running away from it is on the coaching. He should have been ripped for that. But Judge isn't out there fumbling the ball away even after a clean catch on the return teams either.

 

[Triumph]

I'm sure BB isn't giving the coach a pass because players make mistakes. Get away from the ball is a coaching point, getting players to understand and execute coaching points is a coaching skill, situational football is a priority coaching point in New England.
Your understanding of assistant coaches under belichick is uninformed.

As usual youre wrong.

NE special teams in ranked 9th even with Gost having a terrible season and Slater missing games. FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2016 TEAM EFFICIENCY RATINGS

Jones fumbling and not getting away from a ball is not a reflection of bad coaching by Judge. All Judge can do is coach a player what is expected of them as a NE Pat. Belichick keeps putting Jones out there and Belichick will take him out.

 

[Triumph]

I'm surprised you would think coaches are not responsible for their players mental errors. Aside from everything else it almost happened earlier in the game, where was the coaching to drive the point home then.
I'm not excusing jones and blaming the coach I'm blaming both because they are both responsible for this.

Brady threw an INT in the NE endzone.

I want Josh Mcdaniels and Jerry Suplinski gone tomorrow.

 

[Triumph]

Ravens fans get it.

I have a lot more thoughts, but the one that stands out is Hester. He's got to go. Making the same mistake over and over again. It's on the coaching too for continually throwing him out there like this hasn't been an issue for weeks now.

Week 14: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly discussion/rant Patriots edition

Like PatChick said, "Jones is no stranger to special teams and punt return duties." Jones didnt arrive in NE to find coaches that dont know how to coach. Belichick has one of smallest coaching staffs in the NFL and is selective who is chosen.

 

[patchick]

I'm surprised you would think coaches are not responsible for their players mental errors.

Of course coaches are responsible for preparing players to play smart and aware. My point is, that's just what I see from the rest of the special teams corps this season: an uncommonly smart and aware unit. I see coverage and blocking teams playing good situational football and avoiding mental errors. I see precision coordination with long snappers and holders. I see gunners downing punts deep in opponents' territory, and kick returners taking advantage of the new 25-yardline rule and NOT returning deep kickoffs as so many other teams seem to do, unsuccessfully, over and over.

I see this impressive sign of mental discipline:

Number of Special Teams Penalties, New England Patriots
2014: 26
2015: 25
2016: 9

In other words, I see an extremely well-coached special teams corps. And then I see one guy -- a guy who looked awesome in preseason, and reportedly awesome in practices all season long -- panicking and freezing on the field. Yes, it's absolutely on Judge to fix the situation. But I just can't imagine that he coached 20 guys so well and 1 horribly.

 

[Ring 6]

As usual youre wrong.

NE special teams in ranked 9th even with Gost having a terrible season and Slater missing games. FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2016 TEAM EFFICIENCY RATINGS

Jones fumbling and not getting away from a ball is not a reflection of bad coaching by Judge. All Judge can do is coach a player what is expected of them as a NE Pat. Belichick keeps putting Jones out there and Belichick will take him out.

It doesn't matter if they are ranked first. It is a coaching issue to coach a player to not let a punt hit him.
Coaches are supposed to coach effectively not say it's not my fault I told him not to do that.

So in your estimation coaches have zero responsibility to prevent players from making mistakes. That is simply wrong.

Belichicks assistants and coordinators (which judge is) have significant input into decisions about who plays.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course coaches are responsible for preparing players to play smart and aware. My point is, that's just what I see from the rest of the special teams corps this season: an uncommonly smart and aware unit. I see coverage and blocking teams playing good situational football and avoiding mental errors. I see precision coordination with long snappers and holders. I see gunners downing punts deep in opponents' territory, and kick returners taking advantage of the new 25-yardline rule and NOT returning deep kickoffs as so many other teams seem to do, unsuccessfully, over and over.

I see this impressive sign of mental discipline:

Number of Special Teams Penalties, New England Patriots
2014: 26
2015: 25
2016: 9

In other words, I see an extremely well-coached special teams corps. And then I see one guy -- a guy who looked awesome in preseason, and reportedly awesome in practices all season long -- panicking and freezing on the field. Yes, it's absolutely on Judge to fix the situation. But I just can't imagine that he coached 20 guys so well and 1 horribly.

It is not at all mutually exclusive that judge is doing a good job and that judge did a poor job instructing jones on this issue and making his point stick.
It's like saying the patriots are good so BB has never done anything wrong

 

[Ring 6]

Brady threw an INT in the NE endzone.

I want Josh Mcdaniels and Jerry Suplinski gone tomorrow.

If you are going to take that ignorant of an approach to posting why bother?

I guess you think the coach responsible for coaching jones what to do when a punt is rolling around on the ground did it well. I don't.
Whether or not he dies everything else really well or really poorly he has accountability in this. He would tell you that himself.

 

[AtomicDawg]

Why are we letting McDaniels off the hook for calling an interception at the goal line?

I'm actually shocked there aren't/haven't been more "McDaniels/Patricia sucks" threads like I'd read in the past. Hmm...wonder why.

 

[Ring 6]

It's fair to give him partial blame. That Jones didn't have the awareness to NOT run toward a bouncing punt while the rest of the team is running away from it is on the coaching. He should have been ripped for that. But Judge isn't out there fumbling the ball away even after a clean catch on the return teams either.

Right. It's the players job to do the right thing and the coaches job to MAKE SURE he knows the right thing.
It is entirely possible that judges communication worked with most but not all players. It is his job to make sure all if them get it.
I would agree that most high school players understand this but just like not tipping a snap count a coaches job is to be 100% sure.

Let's put it this way. After Monday I guarantee judge recoached jones on this and jones now understands.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I think that Russian Hackers are to blame

 

[yukon cornelius]

depends on how responsible he is for personnel decisions - kickers go through slumps, he seems to have gotten ghost through it ok

jones is just knoblaching it back there.....but there's not a lot of options looking at the injuries, going to have to coach him through it and band aid it from here on out, barring a signing

his schemes have been excellent - they took advantage of the kickoff rules from the get go, and his coverages are well done.....

kind of hard to pin player issues between the ears on him, we'll see how he coaches them through it

 

[mgteich]

Jones fumbling and not getting away from a ball is not a reflection of bad coaching by Judge. All Judge can do is coach a player what is expected of them as a NE Pat. Belichick keeps putting Jones out there and Belichick will take him out.

OK, so coaches don't decide who they play and who they don't. If Judge is at home for the game I guess we are all wrong. We are under the impression that Judge runs the Special teams during the game. You are saying that Belichick forced Judge to play Jones, and forced Judge to allow Jones to actually touch the ball as a punter, instead of just being a decoy. Ina addition, you are saying that Judge could not decide BEFORE the game that Jones is not ready as a punt returner, and that this is belichick's decision.

IMHO, it is coaching to decide who plays. It is coaching to decide formations. It is coaching that develops returners. It is coaching that evaluates players. IMHO, to judge Jones as being the best choice is a coaching decision. Yes, Chung and Edleman could have been back there, both calling for fair catches.