Is it fair to blame Joe Judge for Special Teams miscues since being hired?

[Soul_Survivor88]

The Patriots had some notable coaching changes last year on special teams, with assistant Joe Judge taking over for the retired Scott O'Brien, and Ray Ventrone hired as his assistant. Injuries made it a challenge for Judge and Ventrone to juggle their units, with the low point coming with Chris Harper's muffed punt against Denver (that kicked-started the Broncos' come-from-behind victory) and in the home game against the Eagles, when a blocked punt was returned for a touchdown, and Darren Sproles returned a punt 83 yards for a touchdown.

Currently, this season, special teams continues to have repeated highs and lows. You can add Gostowski's missed FGs and PATs to the growing list of concerns (although he has begun to improve) and the ocasional miscues on returns (e.g. the Steelers game, where the kickoff unit allowed three kicks to be returned past the 25-yard line) and punt coverage (e.g. Bolden and Mcclelin failing to keep the ball out of the end zone)

The Patriots also rank 30th in the NFL on punt returns, averaging just 5.1 yards per return

Ball security has also become one of the biggest worries. As of yesterday, our special teams has commited the most fumbles (7) in the NFL (5 from Cyrus Jones alone) including 2 fumbles in a 14-second span that nearly cost us an important December game.

My question is. . . is this something that we can attribute to coaching?

 

[bormio]

Judge has had it tough. 2014 - Edelman and Ghost just did their thing. Now has both a kicker and PR with the yips. But it is his job to find a way to be successful, and help the players be successful.

 

[tmajr3]

The Cyrus Jones and Chris Harper miscues are hardly his fault. If they were letting a bunch of big KO or punt returns, then I'd say he is at fault.

 

[patchick]

Hmm. What I see is outstanding special teams play, particularly coverage teams, and one of the lowest rates of ST penalties in the league -- plus a ton of fumbled returns. IMO that doesn't really look like coaching failure.

 

[SVN]

we also had good special teams plays yesterday and even in the houston game with the short kicks. sometimes you dont need to find a scapegoat coach for everything.Players make mistakes.
I wonder where the josh boyer bashers are now e.g Greg Bedard.

 

[Ring 6]

Hmm. What I see is outstanding special teams play, particularly coverage teams, and one of the lowest rates of ST penalties in the league -- plus a ton of fumbled returns. IMO that doesn't really look like coaching failure.

Jones not getting away from the ball is a coaching issue. Jones fumbling when hit in a return is a player issue but becomes a coaching issue if the coaching decision is to still put him out there.

 

[NashuaPats]

Aside of a few player issues (Jones especially and Gostowski to a degree), special teams has been excellent. Judge deserves to be judged well. Belichick has been vocally complimentary of him.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Aside of a few player issues (Jones especially and Gostowski to a degree), special teams has been excellent. Judge deserves to be judged well. Belichick has been vocally complimentary of him.

 

[doesntmatter1]

The coach has to take some blame. Our last year with Scott Obrien was an awesome year for st and most of those same players returned the following year and there was a noticeable drop off. Same deal w/ oline coach Googs. Googs was eventually fired(rightfully so) and Cyrus Jones' fumbles may do Judge in as well.

A little off topic but this st talk had me thinking about our last game and it reminded me of why I hate Slater on kickoff returns. Slater is the best open field tackler I have ever seen, but I absolutely hate him on kickoff returns. Why you ask. I love watching returns and he is a coward that always wants the returner to down EVERY deep kick. I don't think he would change if we had Hester in his prime. Also, whenever he gets the ball in his hands he just runs in a straight line right into the first tackler. I feel like he projects his own lack of ability onto returners whenever he comes flying into the endzone forcing guys to take a knee.

 

[TBR]

I'd like to know whether the decision to put Jones out there a second time was his or Belichick's (or if Judge played a role in suggesting Jones goes back out again).

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Judge should be faulted for continuing to play an incompetent returner.

However, we do indeed have the best ST unit in the NFL.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I think there have been enough injuries to key ST contributors this year that I don't think I'd hold the return miscues against the coaching. Cyrus Jones seems like a pretty unique case - I have no idea what his deal is, but ever game he's out there he makes at least one ridiculous, incomprehensible, fate-tempting decision. I think he's in his own head at this point, and as a result he's really indecisive (which is about the last thing you want a returner to be).

It sucks that we keep going back to him, but I kinda get it. Amendola's hurt, Edelman and Blount are too valuable to put back there with any regularity (especially given Edelman's foot), and the guy they replaced Jones with immediately fumbled too. Seems like more of a personnel issue than a coaching issue.

 

[Gronkowski123]

Not Judge's fault that Cyrus Jones stinks!

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

The Cyrus Jones and Chris Harper miscues are hardly his fault. If they were letting a bunch of big KO or punt returns, then I'd say he is at fault.

Ultimately it's Joe Judge that coaches the group and then decides who will return kicks/punts. How does Joe Judge not deserve some of the blame for ball security problems in the return game?

In the post game when BB was asked about all the miscues in special teams, he predictably said it starts with coaching.

 

[luuked]

Jones not getting away from the ball is a coaching issue. Jones fumbling when hit in a return is a player issue but becomes a coaching issue if the coaching decision is to still put him out there.

Normally, I'd agree but "not moving away from the ball" is so fundamental that I doubt very much it was not mentioned again, again and again.

And ultimately I think that's the reason he will be benched. It won't be because of the fumbles but because they can't trust Jones to follow the most fundamental aspects of the return game right now. The reason they kept him on top of the depth chart is obvious.. he is a very talented returner and isn't showing those issues every day practice.

 

[Username]

He has to make a decision on some of these players but you can't blame him for how the players execute. After all he's not the judge, jury and executioner..

 

[Triumph]

Jones not getting away from the ball is a coaching issue. Jones fumbling when hit in a return is a player issue but becomes a coaching issue if the coaching decision is to still put him out there.

Jones is coached to get away from the ball. Players make mistakes every week in the NFL.

BB is in charge of all personal and decides who sits and who plays. Just like with the NE offense when Ridley was fumbling. All Judge does is follow orders from the top.

The answer is no on blaming Judge.

 

[RayClay]

The Patriots had some notable coaching changes last year on special teams, with assistant Joe Judge taking over for the retired Scott O'Brien, and Ray Ventrone hired as his assistant. Injuries made it a challenge for Judge and Ventrone to juggle their units, with the low point coming with Chris Harper's muffed punt against Denver (that kicked-started the Broncos' come-from-behind victory) and in the home game against the Eagles, when a blocked punt was returned for a touchdown, and Darren Sproles returned a punt 83 yards for a touchdown.

Currently, this season, special teams continues to have repeated highs and lows. You can add Gostowski's missed FGs and PATs to the growing list of concerns (although he has begun to improve) and the ocasional miscues on returns (e.g. the Steelers game, where the kickoff unit allowed three kicks to be returned past the 25-yard line) and punt coverage (e.g. Bolden and Mcclelin failing to keep the ball out of the end zone)

The Patriots also rank 30th in the NFL on punt returns, averaging just 5.1 yards per return

Ball security has also become one of the biggest worries. As of yesterday, our special teams has commited the most fumbles (7) in the NFL (5 from Cyrus Jones alone) including 2 fumbles in a 14-second span that nearly cost us an important December game.

My question is. . . is this something that we can attribute to coaching?

Judge kicks field goals and fumbles punts?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think overall Joe Judge has been pretty good. The coverage teams are excellent. Allen is great. Cardona. had some low snap issues earlier and that has been corrected.

Gost is a kicker. Whatever.

If JE11 or DA are back there for punts and kickoffs we aren't having this discussion.

Cyrus is mentally damaged . He has the yips.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

I'd like to know whether the decision to put Jones out there a second time was his or Belichick's (or if Judge played a role in suggesting Jones goes back out again).

they were seen exchanging words after the jones f-up, so im guessing its joes decision