Bill and Special Teams Binkies

[Triumph]

Bielema

He was overweight here but hes a blimp now.

Oh, Bulimia.

 

[DaBruinz]

Nobody is arguing about Slater and Bethel. It's the other three.

But I am admittedly less concerned now that the decent players they cut (like Bryant) made it through waivers.

They are still clearly light at corner, and so some currently on the 53 will not survive.

I can't believe you started a thread over Brandon King, Gunner Olszewski, and Cody Davis.
Before his 2 years off due to injury, King was just behind Ebner, Slater, and Edelman in terms of importance on special teams. He was a bookend to Bolden on the Line for the Punt coverage units, though he also lined up at the Gunner position.

Gunner was one of the best punt returners in the league last year, being named as a 1st team ALL-PRO (not Pro-Bowl). Are you seriously whining about an ALL-PRO player making the team again?

Davis was excellent in his coverage duties last year. And he took 65% of all special teams snaps.. That should tell you how much trust the Pats put in him.. The only two players ahead of him on the team? Bethel and Slater.

 

[patfanken]

Nobody is arguing about Slater and Bethel. It's the other three.

But I am admittedly less concerned now that the decent players they cut (like Bryant) made it through waivers.

They are still clearly light at corner, and so some currently on the 53 will not survive.

I was as well.... UNTIL I saw the PS roster. All the players I would have rather seen on the 53 instead of Davis and King made it to the PS. I think the criticism is valid, and Bedard wrote a good piece on it, BUT..... the PS moves make it all moot.

 

[DaBruinz]

I was as well.... UNTIL I saw the PS roster. All the players I would have rather seen on the 53 instead of Davis and King made it to the PS. I think the criticism is valid, and Bedard wrote a good piece on it, BUT..... the PS moves make it all moot.

But is it really valid, Ken? Davis was the teams 3rd in snaps for special teams. I can't think of an error he made last year that cost the team anything. What I do remember is Davis doing well on kick coverages. And usually being the 2nd or 3rd guy down on Punt coverages behind Slater and/or Bethel.

 

[Patjew]

Bielema

He was overweight here but hes a blimp now.

I actually heard he recently lost 20-30 lbs, so he was even blimpier recently.

 

[Simpelton]

Olzewski isn't JUST here because of special teams ability. He's a solid bottom-of-the-roster WR who has made some big plays for us. I'd rather have Olzewski down there at WR4 or WR5 than guys like Dorsett. He's a very good return man who can also run good routes and has some speed.

Bottom line I don't think he's in the same group as guys like Bolden or Slater who almost never appear on the field outside of the ST unit.

 

[Kasmir]

Gunner had the 3rd best punt return seasonal average of all time last year:

https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/season-puntreturns-average

And some here want to cut him and try someone new. If it's so easy, why was he 3rd best of all time?

He also looks to be much improved as a receiver this year by all reports -- he led the team in reception yards vs the Eagles.

And even Lazar (Lazur?) doesn't seem to know that he plays on multiple special teams units: wedge breaker on kickoffs and personal protector on punts.

Yes, his hands are suspect as a receiver -- but still good enough to be an all-pro punt returner. He needs to work on them. But he's getting open, and now has a QB who can get the ball to him.

His future is very promising.

 

[patfanken]

But is it really valid, Ken? Davis was the teams 3rd in snaps for special teams. I can't think of an error he made last year that cost the team anything. What I do remember is Davis doing well on kick coverages. And usually being the 2nd or 3rd guy down on Punt coverages behind Slater and/or Bethel.

this has nothing to do with how good Davis was. The question that Bedard asks is the value of having a guy like Davis who isn't seeing the field on defense unless there is a DIRE emergency on the team at all. Due to all the rules changes as it pertains to special teams, its value has been vastly diminished. Relatively few KO's are being returned. Punters are so good that even that part of the game has lessened. Bedard gave the percentages, but the fact remains clear. The Kicking game (outside of FG's) is not longer "one third of the game" In fact IIRC, it's barely 6% of the game. That's how many plays guys like King and Davis factored in on. Hard to believe that if Bill only kept 2 "ST guys" he couldn't find replacements to do that job among the players he kept that CAN contribute to the offense and defense.

Of course what happened with the PS, pretty much every thing I just posted became moot.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I actually heard he recently lost 20-30 lbs, so he was even blimpier recently.

he was a fat F

 

[stcjones]

Olzewski isn't JUST here because of special teams ability. He's a solid bottom-of-the-roster WR who has made some big plays for us. I'd rather have Olzewski down there at WR4 or WR5 than guys like Dorsett. He's a very good return man who can also run good routes and has some speed.

Bottom line I don't think he's in the same group as guys like Bolden or Slater who almost never appear on the field outside of the ST unit.

What have you seen out of Olzewski at WR that I am missing?! I don’t think he’s shown anything at WR entire time he has been here. Had a great PR year last season and that is apparently why BB is bringing him back….Everyone has been waiting for him to become the next Edelman/slot….he is a tough fearless player but he hasn’t elevated his receiving game thus far….hopefully this is his year. Go Pats!

 

[Zuma]

Olzewski isn't JUST here because of special teams ability. He's a solid bottom-of-the-roster WR who has made some big plays for us. I'd rather have Olzewski down there at WR4 or WR5 than guys like Dorsett. He's a very good return man who can also run good routes and has some speed.

Bottom line I don't think he's in the same group as guys like Bolden or Slater who almost never appear on the field outside of the ST unit.

Your right...he does run crisp routes now and has more quickness then before it seems. But he has issues catching the ball sometimes...then again so did Edelman on occasion. We shall see.

 

[Sicilian]

this has nothing to do with how good Davis was. The question that Bedard asks is the value of having a guy like Davis who isn't seeing the field on defense unless there is a DIRE emergency on the team at all. Due to all the rules changes as it pertains to special teams, its value has been vastly diminished. Relatively few KO's are being returned. Punters are so good that even that part of the game has lessened. Bedard gave the percentages, but the fact remains clear. The Kicking game (outside of FG's) is not longer "one third of the game" In fact IIRC, it's barely 6% of the game. That's how many plays guys like King and Davis factored in on. Hard to believe that if Bill only kept 2 "ST guys" he couldn't find replacements to do that job among the players he kept that CAN contribute to the offense and defense.

Of course what happened with the PS, pretty much every thing I just posted became moot.

It may only be 6%, but those 6% can be absolutely BACK BREAKERS. Nothing takes the air out of a team like a big return. Increasing your chances of getting one, and minimizing your chances of allowing one, make those players more valuable than they appear. And they're not replacing guys who would be regularly contributing on offense/defense, unless there are multiple injuries. In which case, I'm not sure the slightly better players there are worth the detriment on each ST play.

There's a fine line to walk there for sure. If you only had 11 "real" defensive players and the rest were special teamers, you'd be in serious trouble. But I'm not sure the difference between carrying 3 and carrying 5 is a hill anyone should die on either way.

 

[DaBruinz]

this has nothing to do with how good Davis was. The question that Bedard asks is the value of having a guy like Davis who isn't seeing the field on defense unless there is a DIRE emergency on the team at all. Due to all the rules changes as it pertains to special teams, its value has been vastly diminished. Relatively few KO's are being returned. Punters are so good that even that part of the game has lessened. Bedard gave the percentages, but the fact remains clear. The Kicking game (outside of FG's) is not longer "one third of the game" In fact IIRC, it's barely 6% of the game. That's how many plays guys like King and Davis factored in on. Hard to believe that if Bill only kept 2 "ST guys" he couldn't find replacements to do that job among the players he kept that CAN contribute to the offense and defense.

Of course what happened with the PS, pretty much every thing I just posted became moot.

Since when is the OP Greg Bedard?

We'll just have to agree to disagree that the value has diminished. In fact, I'd say that it's INCREASED when you consider the XP rules. And you're ignoring that they guys like King and Davis are in on Punt Coverages.

 

[DaBruinz]

Your right...he does run crisp routes now and has more quickness then before it seems. But he has issues catching the ball sometimes...then again so did Edelman on occasion. We shall see.

Edelman's one wart is that he was always amongst the leaders in drops every year. He almost ALWAYS made up for it with CLUTCH or INSANELY Clutch catches.

 

[ralmat55]

There’s method to Belichick’s ST madness beyond just getting better field position through better ST play.

You would think having 4 or 5 ST only players on the roster would mean less positional depth, but one of the strengths of this team over the years has been its depth. I’ve come to the conclusion that having the large number of dedicated STers the Pats usually carries actually increases the quality of their positional depth.

Having 4 or 5 guys who play on the kick and punt coverage and return teams lessens the contributions needed to those units from the position groups and allows the Pats to keep higher quality backup players at their positions rather than having lesser quality backups who are also able to contribute ST units.

For instance with this year’s team, other than JJ Taylor possibly having a returner role, the first 4 RBs will have minimal participation on STs. If Brandon Bolden didn’t play all 4 teams and play them well, you might not be able to keep a James White because you’d need another RB who could play a larger role on STs.

If you didn’t have Matt Slater, you probably couldn’t get away with having your 3 top WRs play no role on the teams at all. Your 4th receiver might be chosen for his ST play rather than just his ability to backup the starters.

If you didn’t have Brandon King/Cody Davis, you would not be able to get away with having 3 TEs on your roster none of whom is a contributor on STs.

 

[slam]

this has nothing to do with how good Davis was. The question that Bedard asks is the value of having a guy like Davis who isn't seeing the field on defense unless there is a DIRE emergency on the team at all. Due to all the rules changes as it pertains to special teams, its value has been vastly diminished. Relatively few KO's are being returned. Punters are so good that even that part of the game has lessened. Bedard gave the percentages, but the fact remains clear. The Kicking game (outside of FG's) is not longer "one third of the game" In fact IIRC, it's barely 6% of the game. That's how many plays guys like King and Davis factored in on. Hard to believe that if Bill only kept 2 "ST guys" he couldn't find replacements to do that job among the players he kept that CAN contribute to the offense and defense.

Of course what happened with the PS, pretty much every thing I just posted became moot.

You know that Belichick is coaching this team, right? Other teams de-emphasizing special teams is a big flashing neon sign to shore that up and take advantage of their laziness. Kicking teams CAN take advantage of the kickoff touchback rule and also punt it out of bounds to limit returns, sure, but if other teams are actively bad at returning kicks and we're good at covering them, you know damn well that Belichick will instruct kickers and punters to kick in a way that forces returns that usually results in good field position for us.

Belichick sees an area of football that's undervalued and you know he will go the other way. It's why we have a young pocket passer and a traditional running attack in the age of mobile quarterbacks running RPOs.

 

[Mack Herron]

The roster is likely not final, and some of these guys may only be as secure as the next shiny CB.

 

[Simpelton]

What have you seen out of Olzewski at WR that I am missing?!

More seriously, what I've seen out of Olzewski is all the tools he needs to be an effective depth WR. No one would mistake him for a WR1, but he's a good depth guy at WR now, with the ceiling of maybe a WR3 or so. Not great, but serviceable, which combined with his special teams contributions makes him well worth his roster spot.

 

[patfanken]

Since when is the OP Greg Bedard?

We'll just have to agree to disagree that the value has diminished. In fact, I'd say that it's INCREASED when you consider the XP rules. And you're ignoring that they guys like King and Davis are in on Punt Coverages.

Extra points have NOTHING to do with the issue of keeping King and Davis. The FACT is, on that is indisputable, was that the Pats had to cover just 44 KO's and punts over the course of the past season. And I was was wrong. It wasn't 6% of the plays from scrimmage. It was 2.2% of the 2005 plays. Keeping King and Davis to play those 44 plays is ridiculous.

Hey, listen, I hate that the NFL emasculated the kicking game. It was one of those areas, that Bill could out coach other teams. But the NFL in its infinite idiocy felt that they had to dumb down the game to keep Bill from embarrassing them too often. So the kicking game is just about who can make FG's and extra points and those 44 punts and KO's that are returned.

So you tell me, DB, are those 44 plays out of 2005 worth 2 roster spots? You mean to tell me that there aren't 2 other players who have additional skills who can't do as well? C'mom Man

Maybe this year with the expanded PS it doesn;'t matter. But eventually it will and we will lose more guys like Langhi (assuming he's actually gone.

 

[patfanken]

You know that Belichick is coaching this team, right? Other teams de-emphasizing special teams is a big flashing neon sign to shore that up and take advantage of their laziness. Kicking teams CAN take advantage of the kickoff touchback rule and also punt it out of bounds to limit returns, sure, but if other teams are actively bad at returning kicks and we're good at covering them, you know damn well that Belichick will instruct kickers and punters to kick in a way that forces returns that usually results in good field position for us.

Belichick sees an area of football that's undervalued and you know he will go the other way. It's why we have a young pocket passer and a traditional running attack in the age of mobile quarterbacks running RPOs.

Like I said to DB, its 44 plays out to 2005. That's 2.2%. That 1961 offensive and defensive plays, and 44 KO's and punts that had to be covered. Do you really think that Bill can't coach up 2 other guys who can do as well or nearly as well as Davis and King for those 44 plays?

There was a time when the kicking game truly was an equal part of the game, but in order to keep good coaches like Bill from embarrassing the rest, the NFL chose to dumb the game down. The return game was once one of the most exciting plays in the game. 20+ plays a game fans on both sides of the ball held their breaths because something really exciting might happen. Now its a time when you go and get beers to to the fridge. Very sad.