Illegal formation on Chad

[Patspsycho]

Actually, it does matter when you consider how much Ochocinco has been blasted for this penalty.
First of all, I know Bruschi is revered as a god by many in this forum, but unlike some people I refuse to see him as some all-knowing, all-seeing omnipotent deity who has never been and will never be wrong on any and all matters football. The appeal to authority argument is considered a fallacy in debate.

Second of all, Gronkowski is clearly behind the line by a little bit. I think Chad looked in and saw him as off the line while the referee looked in and saw him as on the line. While the OPs picture is not the best angle, I think it could very well have been simply a bad call.

I am not refering to Bruschi as an infallible authority, I am only quoting him because he mentioned what is a commonly known fact, that you move off the line if the TE comes to your side because you have the outside perspective.

Also, like I said, Ocho was yanked on the next play and did not play on the rest of that drive, so clearly the team viewed him as being the one in error, point blank.

Of course without knowing the true design of that play, we don't know what the definitive answer is, but I would venture that it is better to step off the line because the line judge is a lot less likely to throw a flag on the inside formation because that's such a murky area.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Jerry Markbreit's answers - chicagotribune.com


Under NFL rules, players are numbered for eligibility. Tight ends and wide receivers must be on the end of the line of scrimmage in order to be an eligible pass receiver. If a wide receiver is on the line of scrimmage and a tight end is inside of him, an illegal formation has occurred because another eligible has covered the eligible tight end. The formation would be legal if the wide receiver would drop off of the line of scrimmage so that he is not in a direct line with the tight end.

 

[Patspsycho]

Question. If there has to be 7 on the LOS and the TE wasn't on the line that would mean the WR would have to be, correct? So the WR won't 'always' move off the line if the TE motions to his side, correct? It would depend on whether the TE is supposed to come to the line. I don't know the answer, I'm asking for clarification.

Also if Gronk is in motion and comes to a stop in a 3 point stance and the ball is snapped within a second, Chad doesn't really have the luxury to check either because even if he sees it he won't have time to move back and be set before the ball is snapped.

I agree that Chad getting yanked points to him as being at fault but it seems more likely that he was lined up wrong from the get-go rather than failing to react to Gronk.

1) Technically yes.

2) Your second statement assumes that Ocho doesn't know Gronk is going to motion- and that's highly unlikely.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I thought the rule about the LOS was that if you were within 1 yard of the football you were considered on the LOS. But I don't know. Can anyone cite the real rule?

 

[Ring 6]

Well Tedy B says that whether Gronk was lined up correctly ot not it is the WR job to make the adjustment, I'll listen to him over you....

So now if Gronk lined up wrong then its 85s error for not catching it? Really?
Look at the formation. Gronk is not up with the T, he is back, just nopt far enough. If 85 misread Gronks alignment, when Gronk lined up wrong that is far from 'he doesnt even know where to line up".
But thats fine, your opinion has to pick the guy you don't like and make him wrong. I'll stick with objectivity.

 

[Funktopus]

2) Your second statement assumes that Ocho doesn't know Gronk is going to motion- and that's highly unlikely.

What if he does know Gronk is going in motion, but expects Gronk to line up off the LOS? When Gronk doesn't line up as expected, Ocho isn't left with any time to adjust. Is this possible?

 

[Triumph]

Thus far we have, Bruschi saying 85 screwed up, the Refs penalizing NE and calling out 85 as the culprit and the Pats yanking Ocho out after that penalty.

Hmm.

Nobody on the Pats has claimed that Gronkowski was at fault yet.

 

[Haley]

Nobody on the Pats has claimed that Gronkowski was at fault yet.

I don't think you will often find any of the Patriots publicly pointing the finger of blame.

But I think that to the Patriots, this was both of their faults since either could have corrected it and I am sure both will get that message in practice.

 

[The Scrizz]

1) Technically yes.

2) Your second statement assumes that Ocho doesn't know Gronk is going to motion- and that's highly unlikely.

1. Thank you.

2. My 3rd statement was that if Chad was wrong it was from the beginning because he obviously should have known/ did know that Gronk would motion to his side. There would be no reason for him to reset, he should have been in the correct position to begin with, because he can't move at the same time as Gronk and would have had no time once Gronk set.

My 2nd statement would be true if Gronk was in the wrong place. If Gronk was supposed to be behind the line Chad would need to be on the line and he wouldn't have had time to correct himself once Gronk set because the snap came so fast.

The Refs blew the call argument carries a lot of weight too as far as I'm concerned because they blew easily a dozen more on dropped passes, PI, countless holdings, and gave Hernandez 1 TD he didn't make and didn't give Bush one he did make.

All this makes me even more excited for the BB special tonight. Every game stuff happens that I am dying to know what he thinks of what happened and he'd never answer a direct question of 'who's fault was that' in a presser.

 

[DaBruinz]

I said it in another thread. I thought the Official blew the call because Gronk looked to be well behind the LOS, whether it be 1 yard or the center of his body lined up with the legs of Brady, or Gronk's head lined up with Ocho's ass. Gronk's feet were at the 33 yard line. Saying he was on the LOS is BS..

 

[Patspsycho]

What if he does know Gronk is going in motion, but expects Gronk to line up off the LOS? When Gronk doesn't line up as expected, Ocho isn't left with any time to adjust. Is this possible?

That's possible.

However seeing that this is a play designed for Gronk (since Brady doesn't check down). I would think that it's on Ocho to take some of the load off Gronk (who is already motioning; going into 3 point).

 

[Funktopus]

That's possible.

However seeing that this is a play designed for Gronk (since Brady doesn't check down). I would think that it's on Ocho to take some of the load off Gronk (who is already motioning; going into 3 point).

Does Ocho need to wait until Gronk is stopped before he can adjust? If not then he could have backed up seeing that Gronk was going into 3 point.

OTOH, as some have mentioned, it was a close call. If the ref had considered Gronk off the line and Ocho backs up, would that result in a formation penalty?

 

[The Scrizz]

Does Ocho need to wait until Gronk is stopped before he can adjust? If not then he could have backed up seeing that Gronk was going into 3 point.

OTOH, as some have mentioned, it was a close call. If the ref had considered Gronk off the line and Ocho backs up, would that result in a formation penalty?

I think the answers are yes to both. You can't have two guys in motion at the same time so Ocho can't adjust until Gronk sets and if Gronk is considered off the LOS Ocho needs to be on it.

I am going with DaBruinz on this one. Blame the ref.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I think the answers are yes to both. You can't have two guys in motion at the same time so Ocho can't adjust until Gronk sets and if Gronk is considered off the LOS Ocho needs to be on it.

I am going with DaBruinz on this one. Blame the ref.

I rewatched the play over lunch.

My wife said Gronk was off the line and she knows more about everything than anybody. maybe he thought Gronk was actually off the line.

I counted 1.6 seconds between Gronk setting and the snap. Not enough time for motion/set/backing off the line/setting. if Ocho was too blame, it's his initial lining up.

Perhaps Adam Seward can tweet on this.

 

[Timbo717]

Thus far we have, Bruschi saying 85 screwed up, the Refs penalizing NE and calling out 85 as the culprit and the Pats yanking Ocho out after that penalty.

Hmm.

Nobody on the Pats has claimed that Gronkowski was at fault yet.

I may have missed it but I haven't seen them claim that anyone was at fault. It's possible they did come out and say it was on Ocho and I missed it, I guess. Then again, the Patriots themselves are probably not freaking out about this like analysts and fans are. (not referring to you in that statement, just in general)

I'm not saying they didn't look at it on film several times, and go over what should've happened and how to fix it in practice because they probably are. Just not the time that we are spending on it...they also don't have to I guess because the staff probably has a good understanding of the rule and actually know what should've happened. Either way, I think it was unfortunate and we're lucky it wasn't a deciding factor in the game.

To be honest, my unfounded opinion is that if it was on Welker than he would more or less get a pass on it. But Ocho is a popular target these days.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I've heard some people blasting Ochocinco for this play, but one thing I haven't heard is the possibility that even though the penalty was called against him, it may not be his fault. The formation may have called for Chad to be on the line and Gronkowski to be in the backfield.

My theory is that it was probably Gronkowski who messed up by being 2 inches closer to the line of scrimmage than he should have been with a referee who decided to be a real tight ass on that play. But when the announcers heard "Illegal formation, offense, number 85" they went into attack mode without thinking it through. And then all the subsequent mediots simply followed suit.

I think Chad looked over and said "Yup, Gronk is in the backfield where he should be so I'm good on the line" while the ref looked over and said "Yup, Gronk's fingernail on his middle finger is touching a blade of grass which is 35.99 inches from the line of scrimmage, so he's on the line, and so is number 85, so I'm a-gonna throw my flag!"

It'd be interesting to know what the reality is

So many fans are treating this like Chad made a dumb mistake that cost the team a big play

Maybe it was a more obscure rule than originally thought - and maybe it wasn't even his fault.

That should change fan and media reaction as I never expected Chad to have a big game given the gameplan against the Fins in the first place - and my major fault with him in this game was that penalty - not the anti-Moss tweet of showing respect and admiration for his teammates even though the ball seldom came his way.

 

[SpiderFox53]

I think the answers are yes to both. You can't have two guys in motion at the same time Ocho can't adjust until Gronk sets and if Gronk is considered off the LOS Ocho needs to be on it.

I am going with DaBruinz on this one. Blame the ref.

The bold part is incorrect. Two players can motion at the same time, but if they do, they must both come "set" for a full second before the ball is snapped.

 

[Ring 6]

That's possible.

However seeing that this is a play designed for Gronk (since Brady doesn't check down). I would think that it's on Ocho to take some of the load off Gronk (who is already motioning; going into 3 point).

Brady doesnt check down? Thats worse analysis than its the WRs fault if the TE lines up wrong.
Are you really our pass offense has one primary route and Brady always throws to it? Even if that were true, the COVERAGE dictates the progressions, so presnap no one knows where the ball is going.

I really can't believe your argunment is 85 is wrong because Gronk lined up wrong, so 85 was supposed to fix that and its even more important because when they left the huddle everyone knew the ball was going to Gronk and the other receivers could take the play off.

 

[Ring 6]

I rewatched the play over lunch.

My wife said Gronk was off the line and she knows more about everything than anybody. maybe he thought Gronk was actually off the line.

I counted 1.6 seconds between Gronk setting and the snap. Not enough time for motion/set/backing off the line/setting. if Ocho was too blame, it's his initial lining up.

Perhaps Adam Seward can tweet on this.

At the least it is not obvious to 85 that Gronk is on the line.
You could actually make the argument that if 85 was supposed to step back, he thought Gronk was not up on the line, so didn't step back to prevent a penalty.
In any event this is the stupidest argument ever.

 

[ausbacker]

59 posts in and nobody thought to go to the source for the line of scrimmage issue?

NFL Rules Digest: Position of Players at Snap

From the OP picture judging by the hashmarks, Gronk does look to be further back than a yard from the line of scrimmage, Ocho on it.