Illegal formation on Chad

[patsfan13]

It negated a 30+ yd gain. This isn't a matter of knowing the scheme, it is football 101. Thankfully this wasn't a close game. I am sure Ocho is chagrined, by the play. THis sort of thing will reduce the number of snaps you get.

 

[Rob0729]

By the rules, Ochocinco is in an illegal formation, but there is a possibility that Gronk lined up wrong not Ochocinco. Gronk did line up off the line so he might have supposed to be about a foot farther back on that play.

That said, I don't get why people are focusing on this one play. I know Branch has had a few illegal procedure penalties during his time as a Patriot. No one over analyzes those. Everything Ochocinco does wrong is blown out of proportion.

 

[The Scrizz]

7 people on the LOS normally this would be the 5 OL + 2 others.

In this case we have 2 TE + 2 WR , with TB & BJGE in the backfield. Gronk and Hernandez are the TE and are on the LOS, if you look at the WR on the bottom of the pick you will see that he (Deion Branch) is lines up correctly off the LOS, this is where Ocho should have been.

Tedy B commenting on this play on EEI the other day said it was the responsibility of the WR to make the adjustment if the TE is in the wrong position. because he is on the outside and can see everything from there.


Ocho lined up incorrectly a mental error a vet should not make.

Of course, as has been noted by an astute poster upstream, the snap came almost immediately after Gronk set. Branch had nothing to worry about as his guy was on the line the whole time.

The question is, was the play designed to have Gronk on the line or not. If it was then Ocho should have known he would need to step back, if it wasn't, Ocho may not have had time to cover for Gronk's mistake and if it's as close to legal as some think, may not have even thought it was a mistake.

The bottom line is, you can't say Ocho made a mental mistake and lined up in the wrong place unless you know where the play was designed to have him line up. It very well could be the case and I'm sure Teddy has guys in the locker room he can ask so he's probably the best source but I wouldn't call it definitive.

 

[Ring 6]

I've heard some people blasting Ochocinco for this play, but one thing I haven't heard is the possibility that even though the penalty was called against him, it may not be his fault. The formation may have called for Chad to be on the line and Gronkowski to be in the backfield.

My theory is that it was probably Gronkowski who messed up by being 2 inches closer to the line of scrimmage than he should have been with a referee who decided to be a real tight ass on that play. But when the announcers heard "Illegal formation, offense, number 85" they went into attack mode without thinking it through. And then all the subsequent mediots simply followed suit.

I think Chad looked over and said "Yup, Gronk is in the backfield where he should be so I'm good on the line" while the ref looked over and said "Yup, Gronk's fingernail on his middle finger is touching a blade of grass which is 35.99 inches from the line of scrimmage, so he's on the line, and so is number 85, so I'm a-gonna throw my flag!"

I mentioned this in another thread, and I agree it is very possible.

 

[Ring 6]

It negated a 30+ yd gain. This isn't a matter of knowing the scheme, it is football 101. Thankfully this wasn't a close game. I am sure Ocho is chagrined, by the play. THis sort of thing will reduce the number of snaps you get.

And what if it was Gronk who lined up wrong? Does he fail football 101, or is it only an issue if its 85 so you can have a reason for the criticism you want to give him. (This is not just to you, but to everyone assuming they know who was at fault and rendering judgement) Perhaps Gronk is 'chagrined'

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Of course, as has been noted by an astute poster upstream, the snap came almost immediately after Gronk set. Branch had nothing to worry about as his guy was on the line the whole time.

The question is, was the play designed to have Gronk on the line or not. If it was then Ocho should have known he would need to step back, if it wasn't, Ocho may not have had time to cover for Gronk's mistake and if it's as close to legal as some think, may not have even thought it was a mistake.

The bottom line is, you can't say Ocho made a mental mistake and lined up in the wrong place unless you know where the play was designed to have him line up. It very well could be the case and I'm sure Teddy has guys in the locker room he can ask so he's probably the best source but I wouldn't call it definitive.

I really hope we are not designing plays that have the WR backing off the line as the ball is snapped.

 

[patman12]

He is considered on the line if more than half his body overlaps with the man inside of him.

This made me laugh.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

And what if it was Gronk who lined up wrong? Does he fail football 101, or is it only an issue if its 85 so you can have a reason for the criticism you want to give him. (This is not just to you, but to everyone assuming they know who was at fault and rendering judgement) Perhaps Gronk is 'chagrined'

Perhaps this is just a poorly designed play.

If Ocho had to move off the line, I believe you also have to allow time to get off the line and set. That seems 2-3 seconds.

How would you not call a motion penalty if a WR is backing off the line during a snap?

If there was confusion and Ocho backed off, there are only six on the line and a penalty.

 

[patsfan13]

And what if it was Gronk who lined up wrong? Does he fail football 101, or is it only an issue if its 85 so you can have a reason for the criticism you want to give him. (This is not just to you, but to everyone assuming they know who was at fault and rendering judgement) Perhaps Gronk is 'chagrined'

Well Tedy B says that whether Gronk was lined up correctly ot not it is the WR job to make the adjustment, I'll listen to him over you....

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I really hope we are not designing plays that have the WR backing off the line as the ball is snapped.

It seems most logical that

1)Gronk screwed up, that
2) normally it would be up to Chad to recognize his teammates' screw-up and adjust accordingly.

In this case however the snap came too soon to allow that. One could then even argue that

3) It was up to Tom Brady to recognize that Gronk screwed up and that Chad needed time to adjust to compensate, and thus Tom needed to wait a few seconds more to call for the snap, or call timeout. Of course someone else could call a timeout also (Chad?).

I am sure Tom's main concern is to focus on the defense rather than on who screwed up in alignment, so from an uninformed outsider's perspective, that's how I'd parse the blame:
Gronk>> Chad >> Tom

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Well Tedy B says that whether Gronk was lined up correctly ot not it is the WR job to make the adjustment, I'll listen to him over you....

Tedy needs to go back and watch the play.

His comment is plausible if they are set for several seconds.

When the ball was snapped is the key.

I hear Matt Millen wants an audiance to discuss franchise management.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

It seems most logical that

1)Gronk screwed up, that
2) normally it would be up to Chad to recognize his teammates screw-up and adjust accordingly.

In this case however the snap came too soon to allow that. One could then even argue that

3) It was up to Tom Brady to recognize that Gronk screwed up and that Chad needed time to adjust to compensate, and thus Tom needed to wait a few seconds more to call for the snap, or call timeout. Of course someone else could call a timeout also (Chad?).

I am sure Tom's main concern is to focus on the defense rather than on who screwed up in alignment, so from an uninformed outsider's perspective, that's how I'd parse the blame:
Gronk>> Chad >> Tom

Maybe the official just made a bad call. The angle is tough on TV.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well Tedy B says that whether Gronk was lined up correctly ot not it is the WR job to make the adjustment, I'll listen to him over you....

Tedy B is also crying over a harmless tweet. You might want to wait until Bruschi gets his panties unbunched before listening to him about anything.

 

[Timbo717]

Of course, as has been noted by an astute poster upstream, the snap came almost immediately after Gronk set. Branch had nothing to worry about as his guy was on the line the whole time.

The question is, was the play designed to have Gronk on the line or not. If it was then Ocho should have known he would need to step back, if it wasn't, Ocho may not have had time to cover for Gronk's mistake and if it's as close to legal as some think, may not have even thought it was a mistake.

The bottom line is, you can't say Ocho made a mental mistake and lined up in the wrong place unless you know where the play was designed to have him line up. It very well could be the case and I'm sure Teddy has guys in the locker room he can ask so he's probably the best source but I wouldn't call it definitive.

Tedy certainly knows better than us, but to me it is because he played the game and probably saw similar plays thousands of times during practices, not because someone on the team told him what Ocho should or should not have done. I think the players have great respect for Bru, but at the same time realize he is a member of the media now and as such not someone who is going to get the full story on certain questions, in this case pointing out who was out of position. Most of the team probably knows that his emotions for the game run high, and that anything said to him could easily be brought up on TV or on the Internet by him.

Anyways, I agree with you that it was a borderline penalty that played out very quickly, and has been overblown by the media which is really what the media is all about. All of this is just my opinion, of course...and I'm really just picking at nits on that.

 

[patsfan13]

I see Hernandez off the line a lot, I usually only see Gronk off the line if he is in motion, ir initially lines up at FB and then moved.

 

[The Scrizz]

I really hope we are not designing plays that have the WR backing off the line as the ball is snapped.

Exactly, which is why it would seem odd that Gronk was supposed to be on the line.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Exactly, which is why it would seem odd that Gronk was supposed to be on the line.

Ocho would be wrong if he was origionally suppose to lineup off the line.

However, one would suspect either Gronk or TB would have noticed.

If Gronk lined up incorrectly, the play was doomed.

Maybe the official was wrong.

 

[Patspsycho]

I've heard some people blasting Ochocinco for this play, but one thing I haven't heard is the possibility that even though the penalty was called against him, it may not be his fault. The formation may have called for Chad to be on the line and Gronkowski to be in the backfield.

My theory is that it was probably Gronkowski who messed up by being 2 inches closer to the line of scrimmage than he should have been with a referee who decided to be a real tight ass on that play. But when the announcers heard "Illegal formation, offense, number 85" they went into attack mode without thinking it through. And then all the subsequent mediots simply followed suit.

I think Chad looked over and said "Yup, Gronk is in the backfield where he should be so I'm good on the line" while the ref looked over and said "Yup, Gronk's fingernail on his middle finger is touching a blade of grass which is 35.99 inches from the line of scrimmage, so he's on the line, and so is number 85, so I'm a-gonna throw my flag!"

Doesn't matter if Gronk makes a mistake or not, it is still the responsibility of Ocho to move off the line because as Bruschi said, he is the one on the outside, looking in and has the perspective to determine who's on the line and who's off.

Also it is fundamental football that you as an WR always move off the line if the TE is on your side or comes to your side of the formation.

Gronk is not going to have the luxury of being able to check because 1) he is in motion, and 2) he comes to a stop in a 3 point stance, and once he comes to a stop, the ball is snapped within a second.

The fact that Ocho was yanked on the next play and for the rest of that series indicates that the team views him as being the one at fault.

 

[The Scrizz]

Doesn't matter if Gronk makes a mistake or not, it is still the responsibility of Ocho to move off the line because as Bruschi said, he is the one on the outside, looking in and has the perspective to determine who's on the line and who's off.

Also it is fundamental football that you as an WR always move off the line if the TE is on your side or comes to your side of the formation.

Gronk is not going to have the luxury of being able to check because 1) he is in motion, and 2) he comes to a stop in a 3 point stance, and once he comes to a stop, the ball is snapped within a second.

The fact that Ocho was yanked on the next play and for the rest of that series indicates that the team views him as being the one at fault.

Question. If there has to be 7 on the LOS and the TE wasn't on the line that would mean the WR would have to be, correct? So the WR won't 'always' move off the line if the TE motions to his side, correct? It would depend on whether the TE is supposed to come to the line. I don't know the answer, I'm asking for clarification.

Also if Gronk is in motion and comes to a stop in a 3 point stance and the ball is snapped within a second, Chad doesn't really have the luxury to check either because even if he sees it he won't have time to move back and be set before the ball is snapped.

I agree that Chad getting yanked points to him as being at fault but it seems more likely that he was lined up wrong from the get-go rather than failing to react to Gronk.

 

[Wolfpack]

Doesn't matter if Gronk makes a mistake or not,

Actually, it does matter when you consider how much Ochocinco has been blasted for this penalty.

it is still the responsibility of Ocho to move off the line because as Bruschi said, he is the one on the outside, looking in and has the perspective to determine who's on the line and who's off.

First of all, I know Bruschi is revered as a god by many in this forum, but unlike some people I refuse to see him as some all-knowing, all-seeing omnipotent deity who has never been and will never be wrong on any and all matters football. The appeal to authority argument is considered a fallacy in debate.

Second of all, Gronkowski is clearly behind the line by a little bit. I think Chad looked in and saw him as off the line while the referee looked in and saw him as on the line. While the OPs picture is not the best angle, I think it could very well have been simply a bad call.