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Illegal formation on Chad

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by vuudu, Sep 14, 2011.

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  1. vuudu

    vuudu In the Starting Line-Up

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    Guys help me understand the rules, never played the game, don't really understand the little intricacies like what Chad was hit with.

    Since Gronk is not on the Line of Scrimmage, should Chad be OK where he is?
    Also when I look at the play again, he was not on the line of scrimmage at all, how far back should you go if the TE is on your side of the OL?
    [​IMG]

    Help me out please. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2011
  2. patriotsfan12

    patriotsfan12 Rookie

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    From my brief high school football career my understanding is that if the helmet is breaking the centers hip then you are considered on the line of scrimmage. So based on the photo Gronk would be considered on the line. Anyway unless any of us were in the film room none of us really know whose actual fault it was. (ocho or gronks)
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  3. unoriginal

    unoriginal In the Starting Line-Up

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    Gronk is on the line of scrimmage. He is considered on the line if more than half his body overlaps with the man inside of him. This is how guards typically line up off the center, whose body extends into the neutral zone.

    Ochocinco has his foot where Gronk's head is, therefore he more than qualifies for being on the line of scrimmage.

    Typically you put your front foot on the heel of the rear foot of whoever's inside of you. You can also turn to the side judge or field judge and tell them, with just a hand signal, whether you are supposed to be on or off the line. If he doesn't agree usually he'll tell you to either move up or back.
     
  4. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    I could DEFINITELY be wrong, but I think it's actually simply a matter of the 7 linemen ~ including the 2 Ends ~ having their hand on the ground. IF I understand the rules correctly, that circumstance ~ 2 Tight Ends on the Line ~ would preclude any Split Ends, Slot Ends, or Flank Ends from lining up on the Line.
     
  5. vuudu

    vuudu In the Starting Line-Up

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    What really is the purpose of this? I mean why is this a penalty?(other than what the rules say) Why this rule? How does one use this to their advantage?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  6. unoriginal

    unoriginal In the Starting Line-Up

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    To be more specific, the rule is supposed to allow the defense to tell which offense players are eligible receivers, and therefore who is coverage responsibility. Only the end players on the line, and players off the line, may touch a forward pass.

    The quarterback is also considered on the line and covered when he is under center. However, when he's in the shotgun, he is an eligible receiver and can receive a forward pass, such as off a toss pass.
     
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Could you please cite the specific rule? What I am finding is that if the player centers his body on the legs of the QB, he's considered off the LOS since the QB is behind the center. And it's clear that Gronk is lined up with Brady's legs. Also, if you were to draw a line parallel to the LOS, you'd see that Gronk is actually BEHIND Chad's rear leg.. Again off the LOS.



    The line judge or field judge are actually supposed to raise their hand accordingly without you asking from what I can find.

    But, I'd rather go with an actual rule citation if you have it..
     
  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    The rule is you have to have exactly 7 men on the line of scrimmage ("on the line of scrimmage" is defined as being within one yard of the ball). The middle 5 are not eligible to receive a forward pass (or go downfield for a forward pass) and the 2 on the end are eligible receivers. They must all be set at the snap (none may go in motion).

    They don't have to be in a 3 point or 4 point stance. There is no rule that says the man in the middle has to be the one who snaps the ball. Also, there is no rule dictating where those 7 men have to line up. In other words, as long as they are on the line of scrimmage, they can be spread out from one sideline to the other or have all of them split wide right or something like that (except, of course, the guy who snaps the ball has to be where the ball is positioned).
     
  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I've heard some people blasting Ochocinco for this play, but one thing I haven't heard is the possibility that even though the penalty was called against him, it may not be his fault. The formation may have called for Chad to be on the line and Gronkowski to be in the backfield.

    My theory is that it was probably Gronkowski who messed up by being 2 inches closer to the line of scrimmage than he should have been with a referee who decided to be a real tight ass on that play. But when the announcers heard "Illegal formation, offense, number 85" they went into attack mode without thinking it through. And then all the subsequent mediots simply followed suit.

    I think Chad looked over and said "Yup, Gronk is in the backfield where he should be so I'm good on the line" while the ref looked over and said "Yup, Gronk's fingernail on his middle finger is touching a blade of grass which is 35.99 inches from the line of scrimmage, so he's on the line, and so is number 85, so I'm a-gonna throw my flag!"
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  10. vuudu

    vuudu In the Starting Line-Up

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    Thank you
    *******
     
  11. bigcountry75

    bigcountry75 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Here is the rule as I am a high school official and a high school coach (in different counties of course) along with playing football for 10 years.....

    You have to have 7 men on the LOS to be a legal formation, doesn't matter who those 7 men are......

    The farthest outside man that is lined up ON the LOS makes everyone else that is lined up on the LOS inside of him to the Center INELIGIBLE.....So in this instance Gronk is considered on the LOS (which we determine by the head of the player Gronk breaking the plane of the Centers butt) which means that Ocho needed to step back off the LOS to make Gronk eligible....Because again by rule Ocho was the furthest outside player on the LOS making Gronk ineligible....

    I saw this play happening and Gronk actually motioned from the right side to the left side and usually Gronk will motion to Ocho to back off the LOS or Ocho should just have done it by knowing the play and the rules.....You will notice this if you watch lots of football that when they motion a TE and he steps up on the LOS watch the outside receiver back off the LOS....

    Hopefully this clears up any confusion that anyone still may have...
     
  12. bigcountry75

    bigcountry75 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Actually looking at the picture again Koppen's butt is at the 34 yd line and Gronk's head is at about the 33 1/2 yd line so "technically" this should be a LEGAL formation and both Ocho and Gronk are eligible but it is too close for comfort so either Gronk needs to back up a little or move up and Ocho needs to back off the LOS....
     
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Vuudu -

    What I have found is that you have to have 7 men on the LOS and No less as unoriginal mentioned. I've also found that, for the NFL, you have to have a minimum of 2 people on either side of the person who ends up snapping the ball. You CAN have more, but it has to be a minimum of two on either side.

    The reasoning is as unoriginal mentioned. To allow the defense (and referees) to know who are the players eligible to catch the ball.
     
  14. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think this is an overlooked part of this play. Did Ocho even have time to get off the LOS before the ball was snapped? It looked to me like Gronk got set, the requisite one second of non-motion elapsed, then the ball was snapped. If that is in fact what happened, Chad would not have had time to move.

    I think Gronk was probably supposed to be off the LOS and screwed up. I think that because of how quickly Brady snapped the ball after he got down.
     
  15. 40yrpatsfan

    40yrpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    the pic implies that Gronk made the mistake, not Chad - looks like Gronk is back off the line but apparently not quite far enough
     
  16. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative In the Starting Line-Up

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    That would make more sense. Chad can't tell very easily if the TE on the other side of the formation is on the line or off, so he can't determine if Gronk is the seventh guy or the sixth, hence it is Gronk's responsibility to either signal Chad back or get back himself.
     
  17. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    I was wondering the same thing about the timing.

    It seemed odd to design a play where you are snapping the ball as a WR moves backward to get off the line.
     
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    7 people on the LOS normally this would be the 5 OL + 2 others.

    In this case we have 2 TE + 2 WR , with TB & BJGE in the backfield. Gronk and Hernandez are the TE and are on the LOS, if you look at the WR on the bottom of the pick you will see that he (Deion Branch) is lines up correctly off the LOS, this is where Ocho should have been.

    Tedy B commenting on this play on EEI the other day said it was the responsibility of the WR to make the adjustment if the TE is in the wrong position. because he is on the outside and can see everything from there.


    Ocho lined up incorrectly a mental error a vet should not make.
     
  19. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    One more thing to add:

    Can anyone else believe the insane amount of coverage this play is getting on the radio? I was listening to 98.5 this morning, and they were off the charts; " That is inexcusable from a [however many] time probowler! If that was Slater we'd be saying 'He isn't ready". Blah blah blah.
     
  20. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Great info. Maybe it was a test BB threw at Ocho =)
     
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