Illegal formation on Chad

[Wolfpack]

Thus far we have, Bruschi saying 85 screwed up, the Refs penalizing NE and calling out 85 as the culprit and the Pats yanking Ocho out after that penalty.

The referee's playcall is irrelevant. I saw a college game this weekend where the referee announced "False start, offense, everyone but the center."

Let me tell you something: If the penalty is called against "everyone but the center" then the means the center is the one who mussed up.

 

[Wolfpack]

I said it in another thread. I thought the Official blew the call because Gronk looked to be well behind the LOS, whether it be 1 yard or the center of his body lined up with the legs of Brady, or Gronk's head lined up with Ocho's ass. Gronk's feet were at the 33 yard line. Saying he was on the LOS is BS..

That's actually the belief I am leaning towards as well. The more I look at that photo, the more I think it was simply a bad call. I don't have the chance to go back and look at any video though.

 

[Wolfpack]

Does Ocho need to wait until Gronk is stopped before he can adjust? If not then he could have backed up seeing that Gronk was going into 3 point.

OTOH, as some have mentioned, it was a close call. If the ref had considered Gronk off the line and Ocho backs up, would that result in a formation penalty?

Yes because then they would have had too few men on the LOS instead of too many. The left tackle would not have been covered.

 

[Funktopus]

Yes because then they would have had too few men on the LOS instead of too many. The left tackle would not have been covered.

Seems like Ocho was in a no win situation here. The only thing that puzzles me is why did he get the hook? Or did he? Did the pats just start running 2WR plays from there and he wasn't needed? Or, was his yanking from the game hasty?

I'll probably never find out...sigh. Not that it matters now that I'm working on getting hydrated for the SD game.

 

[Rob0729]

This thread is still going on for a 5 yard illegal procedure penalty? This is an example why the topic of Ochocinco is way overblown. The fact that people have spend all week dissecting an illegal formation penalty by Ochocinco especially when Deion Branch, Dan Gronkowski, and Brian Waters all had false start penalties just shows that people are making too much of a big deal about Ochocinco.

 

[Funktopus]

This thread is still going on for a 5 yard illegal procedure penalty? This is an example why the topic of Ochocinco is way overblown. The fact that people have spend all week dissecting an illegal formation penalty by Ochocinco especially when Deion Branch, Dan Gronkowski, and Brian Waters all had false start penalties just shows that people are making too much of a big deal about Ochocinco.

If Deion, Gronk2 or Waters were pulled from the game for their transgressions it would be interesting (to me at least) to examine the situation that caused it.

 

[The Scrizz]

This thread is still going on for a 5 yard illegal procedure penalty? This is an example why the topic of Ochocinco is way overblown. The fact that people have spend all week dissecting an illegal formation penalty by Ochocinco especially when Deion Branch, Dan Gronkowski, and Brian Waters all had false start penalties just shows that people are making too much of a big deal about Ochocinco.

Actually, a lot of this had very little to do with Ocho personally and more to do with procedure, who needs to be where, who covers who on the line. I actually learned a few things. Everybody knows what a false start is. I appreciate the clarification on the formation stuff no matter who was at fault.

 

[Patspsycho]

Brady doesnt check down? Thats worse analysis than its the WRs fault if the TE lines up wrong.
Are you really our pass offense has one primary route and Brady always throws to it? Even if that were true, the COVERAGE dictates the progressions, so presnap no one knows where the ball is going.

I really can't believe your argunment is 85 is wrong because Gronk lined up wrong, so 85 was supposed to fix that and its even more important because when they left the huddle everyone knew the ball was going to Gronk and the other receivers could take the play off.

Let me clarify: Brady didn't check down in this play. He was looking at Gronk the whole way.

I did not say that Gronk lined up wrong.

If you look at how Ocho runs that route, you'll see he lets up at the end- that's a ghost route.

 

[Patspsycho]

That's actually the belief I am leaning towards as well. The more I look at that photo, the more I think it was simply a bad call. I don't have the chance to go back and look at any video though.

I have the video and I've looked at it a few times and have come to the same conclusion, that while I think if you had to point the finger at anyone it would probably be Ocho, that the call was unnecessary because there was no competitive advantage from this illegal formation.

 

[Patspsycho]

This thread is still going on for a 5 yard illegal procedure penalty? This is an example why the topic of Ochocinco is way overblown. The fact that people have spend all week dissecting an illegal formation penalty by Ochocinco especially when Deion Branch, Dan Gronkowski, and Brian Waters all had false start penalties just shows that people are making too much of a big deal about Ochocinco.

If you read this thread more carefully you'll actually find out it's been one of the more interesting discussions that this board has had. Like Scrizz said, this thread has been mostly about rule interpretation and clarification than Ocho's personality. I did learn a thing or two as well.

 

[Wolfpack]

Seems like Ocho was in a no win situation here. The only thing that puzzles me is why did he get the hook? Or did he? Did the pats just start running 2WR plays from there and he wasn't needed? Or, was his yanking from the game hasty?

Well it's entirely possible that Belichick who, contrary to popular belief, is not omniscient thought that indeed Ochocinco messed up and so he was yanked for the rest of the series. So even though it was arguably just a bad call, Ocho had to take his medicine anyways.

Or it's entirely possible that they decided the best packages for the remaineder of that particular drive were ones that don't have Ochocinco in them.

 

[letekro]

This made me laugh.

I think they would both be well over the line at that point.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

If you read this thread more carefully you'll actually find out it's been one of the more interesting discussions that this board has had. Like Scrizz said, this thread has been mostly about rule interpretation and clarification than Ocho's personality. I did learn a thing or two as well.

Don't forget play design.

My guess is to not blame Ocho based on when the ball was snapped.

The key to the play seems to be based of masking Gronk's role in the play.

frankly, I think this has been as good a thread as we have had in awhile.

 

[Rob0729]

Actually, a lot of this had very little to do with Ocho personally and more to do with procedure, who needs to be where, who covers who on the line. I actually learned a few things. Everybody knows what a false start is. I appreciate the clarification on the formation stuff no matter who was at fault.

I admit some of the thread is informative, but other parts is just more Ochocinco bashing. Either way, far too much time has been dedicated to an illegal procedure rule that really rarely gets called for this specific reason.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I would guess Ocho and Gronk both thought that Gronk was back far enough from that picture.

 

[The Scrizz]

I admit some of the thread is informative, but other parts is just more Ochocinco bashing. Either way, far too much time has been dedicated to an illegal procedure rule that really rarely gets called for this specific reason.

The fact that it rarely gets called is why it's being dissected so much. As for Chad bashing, there are a half dozen threads for just that, why single out the thread that has actual football talk going on? I happen to like this detail stuff as someone who has never played the game.

I enjoy Psycho's post-game drive threads where coverages and formations get discussed because then I can go back and watch the game again and figure out what he's talking about.

Just as Miguel's cap page is the best, I don't see many boards where you get actual nuts and bolts football discussions, rather it's who's awesome, who sucks, who should be signed, why we'll win, why we'll lose, short-people mocking, trash-talk, etc ad nauseum. Homers vs Trolls, Kool-Aid drinkers vs pessimists, dogs and cats living together! Anarchy!

Far too much time is dedicated to that crap and far to little to rare illegal procedure penalties IMHO.

 

[unoriginal]

Clearing up some long-unfinished business here.

Could you please cite the specific rule? What I am finding is that if the player centers his body on the legs of the QB, he's considered off the LOS since the QB is behind the center. And it's clear that Gronk is lined up with Brady's legs. Also, if you were to draw a line parallel to the LOS, you'd see that Gronk is actually BEHIND Chad's rear leg.. Again off the LOS.

This made me laugh.

Sorry, I was using a rule of thumb I was taught as a wide receiver, which I should have specified. The actual rule, as noted by the following posters, is of one yard distance from the line of scrimmage to be considered "off" the line. For practical reasons, that is sometimes difficult for people to judge without an overhead perspective, thus the rule of thumb.

The actual rule citation, in my version of the rulebook (2007), is Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1, subarticle b. (7.2.1b)

"All players who are not on line, other than the snap receiver under center, must be at least 1-yard behind it at snap, except as provided in 7.2.4." Section 7.2.4 has to do with eligible numbers and ineligible linemen reporting as eligible.

I thought the rule about the LOS was that if you were within 1 yard of the football you were considered on the LOS. But I don't know. Can anyone cite the real rule?

59 posts in and nobody thought to go to the source for the line of scrimmage issue?

NFL Rules Digest: Position of Players at Snap

From the OP picture judging by the hashmarks, Gronk does look to be further back than a yard from the line of scrimmage, Ocho on it.

 

[Patspsycho]

Today, when asked about it by Reiss, Ocho simply took responsibility.

Quick-hit thoughts around NFL & Pats - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

That should put this to bed.

 

[DaBruinz]

59 posts in and nobody thought to go to the source for the line of scrimmage issue?

NFL Rules Digest: Position of Players at Snap

From the OP picture judging by the hashmarks, Gronk does look to be further back than a yard from the line of scrimmage, Ocho on it.

Then the Ref blew the call..

 

[DaBruinz]

Clearing up some long-unfinished business here.


Sorry, I was using a rule of thumb I was taught as a wide receiver, which I should have specified. The actual rule, as noted by the following posters, is of one yard distance from the line of scrimmage to be considered "off" the line. For practical reasons, that is sometimes difficult for people to judge without an overhead perspective, thus the rule of thumb.

The actual rule citation, in my version of the rulebook (2007), is Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1, subarticle b. (7.2.1b)

"All players who are not on line, other than the snap receiver under center, must be at least 1-yard behind it at snap, except as provided in 7.2.4." Section 7.2.4 has to do with eligible numbers and ineligible linemen reporting as eligible.

Thanks to Unoriginal and Ausbacker..

Result: The official blew the call.