PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Idle thoughts - the football talk edition.


Status
Not open for further replies.

patfanken

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
15,533
Reaction score
27,571
I have my own opinions of "defaltegate". I'm sure they mirror the great majority of us. The Pats have been done a great injustice at best. At worst they are guilty of the SMALLEST of misdemeanor that has been blown hugely out of proportion. The truth is now coming out slowly but surely, but the damage has been done.. The cold was a factor. The officials were a factor. Other QB's do it all the time, and the rule itself is pretty ridiculous and very randomly enforced. And finally.... it was 2 psi for Christ's sakes. Never has so much time been wasted on so little air. :rolleyes:

Well after agonizing for a couple of days (as you might have noticed from my first post this week ;) ), I have come to look upon this this small contretemps as a blessing. I am proud to say I have not read a single post on the now 4500 odd submissions of the "deflategate thread", or any of the other related threads. (not to diminish anyone who did) I haven't spent a minute listening to talk radio, nor have spent any time on ESPN, NECN, or Comcast, except to watch a Bruins game. In the end, I was amazed at the amount of time that all freed up.

I decided not to care anymore. While I do fear that whatever punishment might come out of this will be left to the hand of a proven BUNGLER of situations like this. A man who we all know cares more about how HE looks than justice. But whatever happens It’s going to happen AFTER the game, so I have also put that out of my mind.

I am now fully focused on the 2 teams that will be playing this game and the very interesting matchup that is presented. And when you look at it, it is a crying shame that, because what shapes up to be a fantastic match up, has been forced to play a far distant second fiddle to the mediot hysteria that passes for sports journalism these days. So enough of the ancillary crap let’s get on to freakin’ game.

A CONFLICT OF STYLES

Right from the get go, we get a huge difference in styles in how the 2 teams prepare for games. Understand that this is a bit of an oversimplification, but in general Pete Carroll tends (on both O & D) to line up in what HIS team does best and dares you to beat him. While BB looks at each game individually and runs something new at you on both sides of e ball each and every week.

As their records have shown over a relatively long period of BOTH strategies work (btw-3 years IS a long period of time in the NFL). There is no right or wrong here. There is a lot to be said for NOT making multiple changes every week, or even within games. When players have less to think about, their execution improves. When players can line up in the same spot (especially DB's and LB's) and see the plays come at them from the same perspective all the time, their execution will improve as the game goes on.
Often times football is a game of NOT making mistakes as much as making plays. So instead of giving his team a mind numbing load of mental work, he can concentrate on his players’ techniques and execution, because he's a lot less worried about whether if they will be aligned correctly and using the right techniques. Tony Dungy was a big proponent of this style of coaching (as was I back in the day) Coaches often worry about "falling in love with their own schemes. I’s a constant battle of balancing schemes vs execution.. Every coach goes thru it.

Ever wonder why more teams don't follow the Pats strategy of a different game play for every week?. Because..... it’s HARD, very hard.. This doesn’t happen overnight. It’s taken years to put together the semantics to be able to communicate complex concepts with just a word or three. It takes time to develop and train a coaching staff who can teach this well. It, of course, most importantly takes time to put together a roster of players who have the intelligence, positional flexibility, and work ethic to pull this off this style off football game planning. Hard enough that even the great BB, with most of the infrastructure in place, can't do it every year. There are a lot of years that we haven't seen a lot of this, merely because BB hasn't had the players to do pull it off.

So if you choose to mimic what the Pats have done it takes a huge commitment in time and effort, and you STILL might not know if you can implement your grand design until after the season starts. It’s for these reasons and more why what the Pats do is so unique in the league. You really need to have a situation where you know you have the kind of long term support and commitment BB has here. That is rare, and so is how the Pats game plan.

At any rate this whole I find this whole "scheme vs execution" aspect of this game fascinating, and well worth of more discussion. Certainly more than the value of plus or minus 2psi :rolleyes:.

MATCH UPS. PAT's D vs the Seattle O
  1. To put it simply, the Pats have several match up problems that are going to be a nightmare for Seattle. These are problems that are relatively unique to the Pats. On the surface, the Pats secondary is more than a match for the Seattle receiving corp. Most people will recognize this as fairly obvious. But what REALLY makes the Pats a difficult problem are our LB's . It’s the combination of a 270 lb. ILB, to go along with a 6'5 250 LB who is faster than Wilson as well as any of their RB's or TE's
Not too many LB’s have the kind of size of Hightower to play the kind of defense that can line up an play against the Seattle run game. I’m pretty sure that the Pats will be using the base 4-3-4 as the base against the Seattle. That means the Pats can use Hightower, Collins, and Ninko as LB’s. Again, not many teams can line up with a 260 lb outside LB who among the best in the league at setting the edge at OLB in Ninko Ninko’s position flexibility won’t make it easy for Wilson to identify what the Pats will be in play after play.

Not only that, Hightower and Collins both can play all three LB positions if they have to, so the Pats can really load up with the beef on the front 4 and still be in a position to cover the Seahawk play action passing, and read option game. If the Pats can do reasonably well in playing the run while in a nickel D, they will be even more effective.
  1. I think Seattle knows that their passing offense won’t be able to function if the Pats are allowed to play press man coverage. Their receivers simply aren’t good enough for Wilson to overcome his own issues in the passing game against the depth of the CB’s and S’s of the Pats. That’s the good news. The bad news is that the Seahawks can effectively get the Pats out of press man by the use of the read option early in the game. As I pointed out in the “read option” thread, it’s virtually impossible for the Pats to be in press man against the “read option
  2. So what I think the Pats will have to do is run either some kind of combo coverage or tight zone coverage underneath with 2 deep S’s over the top.
    a. An example of a combo coverage would be to put, say, Revis on Baldwin with no help and zone everyone else in that tight underneath zone.

  1. b. 4-5-2 is the kind of coverage that really squeezes the Seahawk short game and forces Wilson to throw into very tight windows over the underneath coverage and infront of the S’s. It also allows for a spy on Wilson, like we saw last week vs Luck, and has everyone in great run support vs any “read option” looks. BTW – this is the kind of coverage Seattle uses most of the time. In fact it was what they were in 85% of the in last year’s superbowl.
  1. If you want to see the basics of what the Pats will be in in Feb, just re-watch what the Packers did for 55 minutes. It was a great game plan by Capers, and the Packers were masterful at executing it. Jamie Collins will be playing the Clay Matthews role, and perhaps even better. GB had no to match Hightower’s kill set, though the Pats have no one who matches Peppers’ ability. And we would all take our secondary over what GB put on the field and should have won with.
  2. There is no other RB, I’d want in a big game, than MLynch. No one runs better after contact than he does. Arm tackles are NOT an option, and pursuit has to be relentless without exception. We see ourselves as being a physical team. THIS will be a physical game. You don’t want to leave anything out on the field.
  3. All that being said. Baring pick sixes and massive turn overs, I find it difficult to believe that the Seahawks offense getting over 20 points against this team. As I mentioned in the my last post, the Seahawks have allowed only 14 points combined in the last 8 fourth quarters they have played. That’s impressive, but the Pats have allowed only THIRTEEN over the same period against much tougher opposition.
  4. Don’t get nervous early. Know that it is a GIVEN than whatever happens on defense, its going to get better and better as the game goes along. That is a pattern that has held true going back a long time this season.
 
MATCH UPS – THE PATS O vs Seattle’s D
  1. This is starting to go on too long, so this will be both brief and incomplete.
  2. The Pats won’t present the same issues that GB did. We don’t have the top end WR’s GB has, nor is Brady have the pin point down field accuracy that Rodgers does. But here’s what we do have that will cause problems for them
  3. What we lack in individual talent at WR we make up for in numbers. I would not be surprised to see the Pats spread the Seahawks out and let Brady pick them apart doing what HE does best.
  4. I don’t see the Seahawks have any more success at rushing Brady than they did rushing a hobbled Rodgers, regardless of who we have out there. Their biggest threats are their outside rushers, and Solder and Volmer are both coming into this game playing at the best level of the year. Our OT’s are better than GB’s it’s just that simple.
  5. Inside the issues are still going to be there, just like they have been the whole season. Sometimes its been very good, and other times, not so much. Seattle will be a much more severer test than the Colts, but not any better than what we saw against the Bill, Lions, Bronco’s, Dolphins, or Jets. The Seahawks should have some success. They are just too good not to. But I will be surprised if that success isn’t for the most part isolated instances rather than a consistent pattern of pressure.
  6. Eddie Lacy had some early success against the Seahawks as has several other good running attacks. What we need this running attack to accomplish is more of a ASmith type of performance than a DMurray one. We need 80-100yds from Blount. We need to make almost ALL of our 3rd and shorts (at least 75%) and we CANNOT fail like GB did in the redzone. We can’t be less than 50% there.
OK let’s stop here. I hope you all expand the discussion here with more detail to fill in what I’ve left out. Above all, let us all “ignore the noise” and talk some serious football. There is a lot we can cover.
 
Thanks Ken for bringing some real football talk back to the site, as opposed to the 15 other deflate-gate threads on the frontpage right now.

I agree that matchups favor us. Two things worry me - their defense is fast, very fast. That will make the short slants and los passes more difficult and gain less yards. I also think Blount will be key here - if we can eat clock and convert those 3rds, we win.

On defense, my big fear is we open like we did the Ravens game - Lynch is way too good for that and he has the ability to rock us back on our heels if we come out soft like we did against the Ravens.
 
Nice one, Ken. Not really anything I disagree with here.

What I would add is that, although we should be able to get 100yds from Blount, the Patriots also have a couple of other good backs that can be used for changeup with no real loss of quality, overall. If the O-Line gets a good push, then Gray can be a VERY good back. Devlin can also knock heads with the best of them.

Regarding the Red Zone, here again, GB didn't have the option the Patriots did to be able to run the 4-man O-Line with an ineligible WR, or Solder, for example as eligible. I'm sure that Carrol is trying to prep his guys to react to it, but the Patriots got the Colts with it big time, even AFTER all the PR from the previous week's game against the Ravens.

Big thing that Coach Belichick needs to reinforce, though, is the whole "situational awareness" mantra, vis-a-vis the fake punt or fake field goal. New England SHOULD be smart enough to NOT let that happen to them.
 
We need to make almost ALL of our 3rd and shorts (at least 75%) and we CANNOT fail like GB did in the redzone. We can’t be less than 50% there

I agree mostly. I think 24-27 points win that game for us. As you said, if nobody screws up I don't see the Seahawks scoring more than 20 on us.

I also wonder if after using our contain rush for most of the season on mobile QBs we will see something different this time. Throw a lot of disguises and traps at Wilson and don't give him the time to process them properly.
 
Great post Ken. It will be fun to watch two top flight defenses go at it next Sunday. My only fear is a Pittsburgh level screw job, essentially giving the hawks drive after drive, and killing every drive we attempt with holding/hands to the face.

If both teams are allowed to play, this will be a hard fought, slug em out battle that will be entertaining as any.
 
My Seahawks fan buddy brought up a good point and that is the noise our team will need to contend with.... I hope they open up that roof to let some of that sound to escape.
 
My Seahawks fan buddy brought up a good point and that is the noise our team will need to contend with.... I hope they open up that roof to let some of that sound to escape.

It's a neutral site. Not sure many Arizonans will be cheering for a division rival. I would expect both teams to have nearly equal representation in terms of true fans.
 
Thanks Ken, this analysis was brilliant, an oasis in the desert of ESPN "deflate-gate" hysteria.

I admit that this "deflate-gate" stuff was depressing me a bit (my wife says maybe more than a bit) for several days, it was robbing me of joy during what should be a time to treasure.

It is a bit like having elderly parents over for Christmas (mine are both 86), you hope that you will have many, many more Christmas celebrations, but occasionally you think "I want to treasure this time, you never know when it will be the last one". I feel that same way about this sixth Tom Brady Superbowl. Hopefully there will be more, but I want to treasure this one just a little more in case (God forbid) it is the last.
 
It's a neutral site. Not sure many Arizonans will be cheering for a division rival. I would expect both teams to have nearly equal representation in terms of true fans.

It's a neutral site but the Seahawks fanbase travels well, as he put it. As an example, you can look at last year's superbowl which was held all the way out on the east coast, and yet the 12th man was in full force. Manning had to operate in silent mode from the first snap (which ended up in a safety).

Glendale is a dome, things might be even worse for us than they were for the Broncos last year. In that aspect, the Pats are about the face the worst possible fanbase.
 
It's a neutral site but the Seahawks fanbase travels well, as he put it. As an example, you can look at last year's superbowl which was held all the way out on the east coast, and yet the 12th man was in full force. Manning had to operate in silent mode from the first snap (which ended up in a safety).

Glendale is a dome, things might be even worse for us than they were for the Broncos last year. In that aspect, the Pats are about the face the worst possible fanbase.

I think part of that was people rooting against the Broncos, no?
 
Great stuff Ken. I really feel for you, you have continued to produce these excellent summaries and analysis threads, and they disappear with a dozen or so replies while the media hype threads continue to thrive (I'm a part of that, no deflection of blame here). It's great to see you keep this up, I appreciate it.

On your Marshawn Lynch point, I think that is an absolutely fascinating matchup. I don't have the breakdown knowledge that you or many posters here have, but anecdotally I feel like Lynch and the Seahawks is the TYPE of running game we tend to do well with. We have big linemen and big (and fast) linebackers. When we get our hands on a running back, for the most part he's coming down. Now, Lynch is a different animal, and I'm sure we'll see our share of frustrating broken tackles, but I'm confident we can limit him, especially if that is one of the focuses of BB's gameplan.

In my opinion, the teams that tend to gash us on the ground are the ones that have great offensive lines and quick running backs that hit the holes before our defense can read and react. The ones we are successful against are the ones where the back relies on yards after contact (which I believe Lynch was #2 in the league in yards after contact average). For an inverse example, we struggled to stop Forsett, who lead the league in yards BEFORE contact.
 
It's a neutral site but the Seahawks fanbase travels well, as he put it. As an example, you can look at last year's superbowl which was held all the way out on the east coast, and yet the 12th man was in full force. Manning had to operate in silent mode from the first snap (which ended up in a safety).

Glendale is a dome, things might be even worse for us than they were for the Broncos last year. In that aspect, the Pats are about the face the worst possible fanbase.

Even 1/4 or whatever of a stadium full of noisy fans might be enough to force silent snap counts or inaudible audibles.
 
I would also like to add a section to your post, and I'd love for people with more expertise to chime in: Special Teams.

There is the other thread on the front page that ranked the Patriots the best ST unit in the NFL this year, and with the eye test I would agree. VERY few big returns allowed, VERY few missed "gimme" field goals, and a lot of HUGE, game altering plays from big returns to blocked kicks and punts. This might be the best special teams units the Pats have had under Belichick, and if I were a betting man I'd say they will make at least one impact play in the Super Bowl.

In fact, looking at most playoff games, it seems that Special Teams has a crucial moment (positive or negative) in every one. Off the top of my head:

- The Saints onside kick to start the second half against Manning and the Colts in Super Bowl 41.

- Desmond Howard and his kickoff return against us in 96.

- Chung and botched fake punt against the Jets.

- Seattle's fake field goal against Green Bay (and the botched onside kick).

- Cribbs' muffed punt when the Colts game was still scoreless last week.

I'm sure there are more, but you get the idea. Even subtler things like (ugh, I'm so sorry) Zak Deossie making the tackle on the last kick return in Super Bowl 42 had a big impact. A better return there and we have a better shot at a tying field goal.

Special Teams WILL play a big role in this game, and I feel confident in our unit to be the ones to make the impact.
 
On your Marshawn Lynch point, I think that is an absolutely fascinating matchup. I don't have the breakdown knowledge that you or many posters here have, but anecdotally I feel like Lynch and the Seahawks is the TYPE of running game we tend to do well with.
No doubt it seems that way. Like you I don't have numbers to back it up - and our defense this year isn't necessarily good & bad vs. certain types of RB compared to previous defenses - but the powerful types do seem to have less success against us than the fast, speedy types.

Conceptually, stopping Lynch and keeping Wilson in the pocket seems like it should have enough success to hold them to a total that we have a shot to beat. That roll to the left and throw is one of Wilson's favorites.

One guy who does worry me is TE Luke Wilson, he has really come on over the past month and could be a factor against our defense that often struggles against TE.
 
No doubt it seems that way. Like you I don't have numbers to back it up - and our defense this year isn't necessarily good & bad vs. certain types of RB compared to previous defenses - but the powerful types do seem to have less success against us than the fast, speedy types.

Conceptually, stopping Lynch and keeping Wilson in the pocket seems like it should have enough success to hold them to a total that we have a shot to beat. That roll to the left and throw is one of Wilson's favorites.

One guy who does worry me is TE Luke Wilson, he has really come on over the past month and could be a factor against our defense that often struggles against TE.

And that's a factor in this too. We would probably fair much better against Lynch if he had a "conventional" quarterback, because we could key on Lynch easier. But I feel some of the strategies used to stop Lynch and/or stop Wilson's scrambling ability are contradictory. It makes it just a little bit tougher.
 
I would also like to add a section to your post, and I'd love for people with more expertise to chime in: Special Teams.
Football Outsiders ranks Seattle's ST 19th.

The stat I went right to is Punt Returns due to Edelman. Surprisingly we're only 10th best in PR average but Seattle is 3rd worst in punt return average allowed so there should be some space for Edelman in the game.
 
Ken, having you here these days is like holding gold during an economic collapse. The board is a mess, but at least it holds some value with threads like this. Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts again and again.

My only issue with what you outlined above is the offensive strategy. I think the Seahawks press the line, get the hands on the receivers, and flood the short zones to take away the short passing game risky, while simultaneously getting more men in position to stop the run. The remedy to that, as I see it, is to pound the rock and get those defenders to commit to the run. Play with 2TE, 2WR, and blount with Gronk alternately lined-up tight or in the slot and block the smaller guys who try to get their hands on him. Then, use play action to spring JE, Gronk, or LaFell down the field. If those passes connect, the Seahawks will be off-balance and have to adjust, likely to their customary soft zone, at which point the short passing game and the complimentary running game will work as you suggest. If those downfield passes don't connect, or if the Hawks penetrating DLine gets to Brady, it will be a long day. Fortunately, the downfield passes don't have to go 15-20 yards to be effective. The in between 10-yard shots (alternately over the top/back shoulder passing) are easier to work and can be instant first downs, when they connect.
 
Football Outsiders ranks Seattle's ST 19th.

The stat I went right to is Punt Returns due to Edelman. Surprisingly we're only 10th best in PR average but Seattle is 3rd worst in punt return average allowed so there should be some space for Edelman in the game.

That surprises me too, especially because there doesn't seem to be a huge dropoff from Edelman to Amendola, so the games Edelman missed shouldn't have dipped it much. That does seem like an x-factor in this game. A big Edelman return could be the key swing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
2024 Patriots Undrafted Free Agents – FULL LIST
MORSE: Thoughts on Patriots Day 3 Draft Results
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots Head Coach Jerod Mayo Post-Draft Press Conference
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
Back
Top