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idle thought - the insomnia edition


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A few points I forgot to add last night. I am fed up with the refs and the league in general. Why doesn't the league simply announce that if you hit the QB too hard, there will be a flag thrown, because that's essentially what is happening. Mayo did NOTHING wrong to get his flag except hit Luck too hard. :mad:

2. Luck and Hilton beat Talib fair and square on that TD last night. HOWEVER I will never understand how that love tap Talib put on Hilton as he went by merited what would have been a 30 yd PI is beyond me. Compared to the contact that went on all know between receivers and DBs it was ridiculous. The inconsistency is ludicrous. :mad:

3. I think you have to wonder that despite the fact that Luck dropped back FIFTY times, and the Pats were getting fairly consistent pressure on him all night, that the Colts didn't get a SINGLE holding call. You can't tell me that there weren't times that a flag couldn't be thrown. NOT one!? Cmon Man. :mad:
 
I would not like to see what would happen if Edelman actually tried to replace what Welker does in this offense. Welker is illusive before he receives the pass and does a good job getting open particularly giving Brady a reliable 3rd down target for the most part, right at the first down marker.

Edelman is illusive after he gets the ball in his hands and is more prone to yards after the catch. However he is less likely to get open and poses a bit more of a turnover risk than Welker. Edelman can tend to leave the ball hanging in space while he is juking his way down the field. They are just so different and to me they have always been complimentary receivers. True they both like to and are most effective starting their routes from the slot. However I think if this team does not have Welker it will need somebody that is a reliable 3rd down receiver cause Edelman is not that guy. Edelman can find it harder to get open if he is not in an offense where other guys are drawing attention from opposing defenses. I would not expect him to be open at the first down marker nearly as often as we see Welker open and picking up the first.

I think as time has gone on Welker has lost some attraction for us as his strength is in his consistent ability to get open and convert first downs. He is not very flashy but what he does allows many of the other components of the Pats offense to shine. Welker does not tend to inspire us in the way that Edelman does with his flash and dash after the catch. But think of all those 3rd down conversions that Welker just gobbles up in this offense and basically say, those are gone. Now how do you get them? Who is my steady Eddy at the first down marker cause its not Edelman.
 
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Mayo did NOTHING wrong to get his flag except hit Luck too hard. :mad:

But then they didn't flag Arrington for actual helmet-to-helmet...


3. Colts didn't get a SINGLE holding call. You can't tell me that there weren't times that a flag couldn't be thrown. NOT one!? Cmon Man. :mad:

You mean like on this play which I ~think~ become a completed pass for 1st down? Dude tackled Nink as Nink was trying to tackle Luck. Fortunately it didn't matter much in the scheme of things, but....

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It's no coincidence that there are plenty of rumors that the Pats wanted McCourty to stay at FS this offseason, after seeing his progress last year.

There is yet another article on the homepage today about it, and it also states that multiple sources have said that Devin McCourty will stay at FS for the remainder of the season.

He is obviously much better in that area for now, and meshes properly into what they need to do to make an immediate improvement in the secondary.

That may change next year (or it may not) depending upon who they sign and draft in the offseason.
 
It's no coincidence that there are plenty of rumors that the Pats wanted McCourty to stay at FS this offseason, after seeing his progress last year.

There is yet another article on the homepage today about it, and it also states that multiple sources have said that Devin McCourty will stay at FS for the remainder of the season.

He is obviously much better in that area for now, and meshes properly into what they need to do to make an immediate improvement in the secondary.

That may change next year (or it may not) depending upon who they sign and draft in the offseason.

Despite the protests of many on this board, Devin McCourty is an extremely talented defensive back. There are not many players in the NFL with his athleticism, intelligence, unselfishness and versatility. However, his development has in some ways been perhaps affected by being switched around so much. He's gone from being a Pro Bowl zone CB to being thrown out on an island in man coverage as a 2nd year player to being moved to FS in a pinch to being moved back to CB and then back to safety. In only his 3rd year, he's had to play with something like 20+ different players in the Pats' secondary so far in his career (off the top of my head: CBs Aqib Talib, Alfonzo Dennard, Kyle Arrington, Sterling Moore, Marquice Cole, Leigh Bodden, Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Terrance Wheatley, Antwaun Molden, Nate Jones; Safeties Pat Chung, Steve Gregory, Tavon Wilson, Nate Ebner, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Bret Lockett, Brandon McGowan, Josh Barrett, James Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown, Malcolm Williams; not to mention fill ins like Julian Edelman and Matt Slater and part timers). A little continuity would not necessarily hurt.
 
Despite the protests of many on this board, Devin McCourty is an extremely talented defensive back. There are not many players in the NFL with his athleticism, intelligence, unselfishness and versatility. However, his development has in some ways been perhaps affected by being switched around so much. He's gone from being a Pro Bowl zone CB to being thrown out on an island in man coverage as a 2nd year player to being moved to FS in a pinch to being moved back to CB and then back to safety. In only his 3rd year, he's had to play with something like 20+ different players in the Pats' secondary so far in his career (off the top of my head: CBs Aqib Talib, Alfonzo Dennard, Kyle Arrington, Sterling Moore, Marquice Cole, Leigh Bodden, Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Terrance Wheatley, Antwaun Molden, Nate Jones; Safeties Pat Chung, Steve Gregory, Tavon Wilson, Nate Ebner, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Bret Lockett, Brandon McGowan, Josh Barrett, James Ihedigbo, Sergio Brown, Malcolm Williams; not to mention fill ins like Julian Edelman and Matt Slater and part timers). A little continuity would not necessarily hurt.
the lack of continuity has been an issue for the entire defense. We forget how young they are and 2 of the 4 guys with any real experience (Talib and Gregory, are new to the team. The DB group is particularly young as you point out and any concept of "continuity" hasn't been there the last 3 years.

I would endorse keeping McCourty at FS for the rest of this season. It would be cruel to move him back to CB again. Better to try and get him and the rest of the DB's a sense of familiarity for the rest of the season. However, I wouldn't give up on him as a CB. I think he can be a true #1. Lets see how it all shakes out in the off season. A lot will depend how Dowling comes back, whether we re-sign Talib, who we draft and who we pick up in FA. If we add CB. he'll be a S. If we add safeties, he'll go back to CB. We won't know even get an indication until May. Lots of time to speculate. Luckily we have a 50% chance to being right.
 
Shifting the talk to WR. Brady made a very interesting comment on his talk on EEI today about Edelman and Welker. While most of us have always seen Edelman and being Welker's back up, and a Welker clone; Brady described them as each having very different skill sets.

I thought that was surprising, and interesting to note, given its far from the "common wisdom" of the the media, fan base, and this board. Comments?....Speculations?
 
the lack of continuity has been an issue for the entire defense. We forget how young they are and 2 of the 4 guys with any real experience (Talib and Gregory, are new to the team. The DB group is particularly young as you point out and any concept of "continuity" hasn't been there the last 3 years.

I would endorse keeping McCourty at FS for the rest of this season. It would be cruel to move him back to CB again. Better to try and get him and the rest of the DB's a sense of familiarity for the rest of the season. However, I wouldn't give up on him as a CB. I think he can be a true #1. Lets see how it all shakes out in the off season. A lot will depend how Dowling comes back, whether we re-sign Talib, who we draft and who we pick up in FA. If we add CB. he'll be a S. If we add safeties, he'll go back to CB. We won't know even get an indication until May. Lots of time to speculate. Luckily we have a 50% chance to being right.


I forget how the #s work out, but if he is an avg-good FS (which this team desperately needs) versus a good (to in his mind possibly great cb); what are the chances that the potential $$$ are so great in FA as a CB that he wants to go somewhere else just to get back to that position?

I know he is self-less now; but come contract time guys have to rightfully so take care of #1. If he leaves a couple mil on the table by getting contract pegged at a cheaper position; pats may not be able to keep him.
 
I forget how the #s work out, but if he is an avg-good FS (which this team desperately needs) versus a good (to in his mind possibly great cb); what are the chances that the potential $$$ are so great in FA as a CB that he wants to go somewhere else just to get back to that position?

I know he is self-less now; but come contract time guys have to rightfully so take care of #1. If he leaves a couple mil on the table by getting contract pegged at a cheaper position; pats may not be able to keep him.

Good point. For starters the franchise tag numbers are much cheaper for a safety than a corner, so that may/may not eventually come into play down the line.

I would imagine that if the Patriots want him, they'll make him a very nice offer that is in the middle of both positions which would still prove to be an extremely rich payday for Devin. It may certainly be something worth keeping an eye on in the next coming year though. At this point, I'm sure that Belichick couldn't care less about potential finances of a player who may/may not end up staying and a situation that doesn't need to be dealt with for a year or so, but that may change in the future.

I do think that Belichick will continue to play him at FS this season, and then weigh out the options that are best for the team moving forward. Like Ken said, a lot may depend on what kind of offseason pickups we acquire in the draft and FA before that decision is made.

One thing we can all agree on though is the nice aspect of him being able to have that versatility, that has proven to be a great attribute for him so far.
 
Shifting the talk to WR. Brady made a very interesting comment on his talk on EEI today about Edelman and Welker. While most of us have always seen Edelman and being Welker's back up, and a Welker clone; Brady described them as each having very different skill sets.

I thought that was surprising, and interesting to note, given its far from the "common wisdom" of the the media, fan base, and this board. Comments?....Speculations?

As a guy who has somehow grown into defending Edelman, I certainly would like to keep him for several reasons. I think that he is a very good returner, and that is certainly a position that Belichick values on his teams. He is also very hard working and football smart, having played several different positions (4 if you include the one he started with coming in). To me he just seems like a "Belichick type player," one of those lower end roster players that Belichick likes to acquire due to being able to do different things...someone who kind of overachives in ways due to their hard work and dedication, one of those under the radar type players.

Edelman as a WR though? That is a little bit different. I think that he certainly has shown us some very nice moves at times. Who can forget his ability to step in and allow the offense to run smoothly without Welker for a couple/few games? Or his super gutsy performance in the BAL playoff loss, fighting through tacklers for extra yardage like it was his destiny? One thing that he has not been able to show on a regular basis though is his ability to step in and take over Welker's role in terms of being Brady's go-to guy, the guy that moves the chains with ease when it's 3rd down on a regular basis.

We actually saw some really nice things from Edelman yesterday, and in the past seasons too. I think that he has great moves that are shifty and smooth, and he can juke and burst in a nice football sense. We finally saw some of those 3rd and long situations where he showed us that he can potentially be a weapon and pick up the yardage, because those are the kinds of plays that are tailored for him to excel in...

I think that they certainly can try and utilize his talent to their advantage in certain situations BUT I do not think that he is much of a "typical" WR in the sense that he can effectively run many routes and act as a downfield threat, so that may be one of his drawbacks. Another may be the possible chemistry that he still seems to be lacking with Brady in some areas, where we constantly see Welker excel.

I would not see any reason whatsoever why Edelman shouldn't be re-upped in the offseason at a reasonable deal for another 3-4 years. I think that he is still a work in progress for sure, but I also think that he offers enough at the current moment where I would not feel comfortable just letting him walk away. Even though some will disagree, I almost feel like we could have a Cowboys/Danny Amendola situation on our hands, where he has the capacity to end up doing very well in another team's system, thus making the move to let him walk look very foolish. I bet those Cboys sure would like to reassess their choice to cut Danny Amendola at this point in time, wouldn't they?

I am trying to paint a very level-headed and somewhat accurate portrayal of Edelman and what he currently brings, and may bring in the future here...and that is something that the "Edelman backers" do not do often enough. We need to include both his faults and his positives in our assessment, but I couldn't imagine any reason why we would not want to re-sign him in the offseason.

That all said, I also do not want his situation to have anything to do with Welker's situation. In a perfect world I would not think that one has to necessarily do with the other, and I think we can sign both.

If that doesn't happen and their longer term plan is to try and feature Edelman by allowing Welker to walk (which I wouldn't agree with), then I would question Edelman's ability to be anywhere near as tough as Welker and I would question his ability to be that constant "go-to" guy that Wes has proven to be so many times. I think we should still sign Wes to something in the 3 year range, and if Edelman improves enough to warrant an attempt at change a couple of yrs down the line, then they can choose to do that then...but not now, not yet.
 
Lets get started, no preamble necessary:

1. OK Gronk broke his arm. He's likely going to be gone for a month or so, and that's that. There will be mediots that will question why he was in the game to be hurt, and will try to make some hay throwing out that line of crap. But the bottom line is he's not going to be there for a while and its time for the back ups to step up.

2. Speaking of back ups stepping up, Julian Edelman finally showed us why life without Wes Welker might just still go on. Perhaps not as well but forget about his punt returns, the 5 catches for 68 yds, with Welker on the field was telling. The key thing for Edelman was that he was getting snaps and looks on a regular basis during a game. That hadn't happened since his rookie year.

I hope this game is an indication that when THAT happens, he can be a productive receiver in this league. Now lets see if he can stay on the field consistently enough the rest of the way to see if that can happen. Clearly people are going to need to step up to make up for Gronk's absence. Edelman will need to be one of those players.

3. I am actually more concerned about Chandler Jones' injury that Gronk's. I can't believe nothing is being said about it. What is most worrisome is that he seemed to be walking without a limp coming off the field, yet went into the locker room and never returned. That's not a good sign. Believe me, if we lose Jones, we truly will need become a gambling, blitzing defense. He will be a very hard guy to replace.

4. When people start tearing down the defense again, please remember that the Colts got 3 extra possessions in the game due to the picks and punt return. That's over 20 extra plays, and over 100 yds of offense in pure 4th quarter garbage time

5. It was hard to believe that the defense that was on the field in the 2nd and 3rd quarters was the same one that was on the field in the first. The Colts first 3 possessions yielded 2 TDs and a FG, but after that nothing much until that 4th quarter garbage time TD

6. Andrew Luck DID have some moments that made it clear what all the fuss is about. The TD pass past Talib was a thing of beauty. The 3rd down pass he made with Ninko on his back was an epic play. The TD pass to Hilton in the 4th was a delicate thing of beauty. there is a lot to like about the entire Colts offense....down the road. They are likely to be a force to be reckoned with, very soon

I think the thing I like the best about him is that he has no fear. He will throw the ball into small windows...and make it happen. I know it will backfire on him from time to time, but the great ones all have that same fearlessness. He made 3 throws in a row in the 3rd quarter, each one was more remarkable than the last. No question the kid is special.

7. Devin McCourty looked much smoother at S than he did vs the Bills. The play he made saving Talib, was the first time I can recall a Patriot's safety making a play play on a ball on the sideline in over 2 years. It almost brought tears to my eyes. If we can get THAT kind of play out of the safety position CONSISTENTLY, it would be worth moving him from CB on a permanent basis

However, last night didn't make me any more confident about Arrington's play, and I don't like relying on a rookie who missed most of TC and beyond to be my #2 guy.

8. Very quietly Dennard and Wilson have racked up 7 picks. That's a pretty pressive total for a pair of rookies who haven't received starter's snaps and 6 more games to go. There are better days ahead for this secondary.

9. Count be among those who are impressed with Talib...who probably needs a good nickname as much as anyone. Not so much because of the pick 6, but his general coverage. Yes I saw him get beat a few times, but for the most part we got to see some very close coverage on some very fast receivers.

BTW- we should expect to see him get beat from time to time. I can recall 3 times last night (once the pass was overthrown, once when McCourty saved him, and the Hilton TD) That's that's what happens to guys who play mostly man coverage. Occasionally they get beat. We have to take comfort that most of the time he will have tight coverage on his man, and accept those, hopefully rare occasions when it happens. There is only one Darelle Revis in the league right now. Even the good ones among the rest get beat.

The bottom line is that as he gets into prime shape and works his way into the defense Talib is going to be a big upgrade to this defense.....and it doesn't hurt that he looks like a real solid tackler as well. It was a great first impression

10. That thread praising Dante Scarnnechia for another job well done is well deserved. Most teams who lose BOTH their OG's in a single week, don't get the performances by the back ups that the Pats got. Its really scary how consistent he gets them ready. Granted the run blocking could have been better, but that's a story for THIS week.

Also, this is one of the reasons I think Nate Solder is going to be an all pro LT for a long time. He was having his troubles with Dwight Freeney in the first quarter, drawing 2 holding calls (though one was kinda weak). What's impressive is that after that, he shut him down. Whatever Freeney was doing to him early, he figured it out. This kid is going to keep getting better and better as time goes on and he adds experience and more strength to his raw ability

11. BB brought in what seemed to be a never ending supply of TE's. In the next month we will get to see how well he did. It will also be interesting to see if Josh stays with the 2 TE set as a base formation, or will we see more 3 Wide groupings like we did last night

12. Interesting to see how different game plans create different Heroes. Last week Woodhead was a virtual legend in his own time, and this week I don't think he made the stat sheet. Now I suspect we will see multi-threads demanding we get Edelman re-signed while we still can. ;)

13. With Jones likely out for Thursday, I'll be interested to see who gets off the bench this week, Francis or Bequette? BTW- Scott seemed to provide "some" pressure in relief of Jones. I can recall at least 2 QB hits from him. He's another FA that we will finally see if we get our money's worth on.

14. The injuries are really starting to pile up. They won't matter much if everyone gets healthy by the playoffs. With both the Ravens and Texans lucking out royally yesterday, getting a bye does not look likely right now. However we still have to get by the Jets and they are catching us at just the right time, coming off a short week with a slew of injuries. What seemed like a romp in the park a few weeks ago, looks more like a dogfight tonight.

15. I have been among the few voices saying that things are going to start to get better for the Pats defense. So I decided to put my money where my mouth is and on one of my 2 FF teams, I picked up the Pats defense, which was pretty much available in about 100% of leagues. 27 points BABY!. The bad news was that in my other league, my opponent this week had the same idea. OUCH! :D

Well thought out/written PFK.

#8 I didn't look it at that way but it's a positive with our secondary. Now with Talib things are definitely are lookin up.

#15 I had put in Pat's D few weeks back as much as I boitched & moaned about their secondary issues, Takeaways and sacks etc was just as good if not better than most other D's out there.
 
Lets get started, no preamble necessary:


3. I am actually more concerned about Chandler Jones' injury that Gronk's. I can't believe nothing is being said about it. What is most worrisome is that he seemed to be walking without a limp coming off the field, yet went into the locker room and never returned. That's not a good sign. Believe me, if we lose Jones, we truly will need become a gambling, blitzing defense. He will be a very hard guy to replace.

According to Fred Kirsch, he returned to the sidelines and was in uniform with all his pads intact. He was standing. No trainers were working on him.

That's the best sign and, I think, the reason why there isn't much to say about it. He's not been getting xrays or treatment that has leaked to the press because he hasn't needed any.

I think they just didn't want to take any chances with him. If he can go on Thursday, I believe he will.
 
I didn't know where to put this "idle" thought so I figured this was the best place.

Looking at the Lloyd during the game, he seemed much more liek a normal Patriot receiver and didn't really have to do any of those stretch/keep 2 feet in bound full body control catches. I think this is a good thing as he's getting more comfortable in his routes and he's in places where Brady wants him to be .

Several plays moving towards the middle of the field rather than playing the safe route and having the back shoulder throw to the outside. I believe this helps the offense even more.
 
I didn't know where to put this "idle" thought so I figured this was the best place.

Looking at the Lloyd during the game, he seemed much more liek a normal Patriot receiver and didn't really have to do any of those stretch/keep 2 feet in bound full body control catches. I think this is a good thing as he's getting more comfortable in his routes and he's in places where Brady wants him to be .

Several plays moving towards the middle of the field rather than playing the safe route and having the back shoulder throw to the outside. I believe this helps the offense even more.

While the back shoulder throw pretty much equals a high rate of success due to lessening the CBs ability to cover, it is also somewhat difficult to pull off on a regular basis for 2 players who may be 1/10th of a second off in their respective heads, and are attempting to develop chemistry together.

I don't think we've seen the end of the back shoulder timing throws, but I also applaud those who made the decision to incorporate some other routes, as there are plenty of ways that Llyod can contribute. In some of the past games the back shoulder throw seemed to almost be a wasted look at Llyod at times, but I think they are improving his odds and looks based on the last couple of games.

Hopefully their chemistry only continues to grow with each other during the stretch run of the season and into next year too.

(I bet that we see a back shoulder or two vs the Jets on Thursday, just a hunch)
 
He's not been getting xrays or treatment that has leaked to the press because he hasn't needed any.

I'm not so sure that is 100% correct in Chandler Jones' case, is it?

I thought that it was pretty much well known that he had gotten xrays and treatment even during the game, as Reiss said that it was just standard procedure.

I would imagine that you are correct in thinking that the injury itself isn't that big of a deal, or we likely would've heard something about it by now. It is probably a case where he just needs to rest it for a game or two.

The fact that there is a 14 day window between Sunday's game vs IND and next Sunday's game in Miami may be factored into their choice to hold him out on Thursday.

Of course it may turn out that it wasn't anything at all, and that he'll play Thursday. We'll have to wait and see in the next day or so.
 
I didn't know where to put this "idle" thought so I figured this was the best place.

Looking at the Lloyd during the game, he seemed much more liek a normal Patriot receiver and didn't really have to do any of those stretch/keep 2 feet in bound full body control catches. I think this is a good thing as he's getting more comfortable in his routes and he's in places where Brady wants him to be .

Several plays moving towards the middle of the field rather than playing the safe route and having the back shoulder throw to the outside. I believe this helps the offense even more.

Sunday's game plan was all about playing fast and getting open/seperation quick. Lloyd was repurposed in part because he doesn't get enough seperation let alone early on his perimeter routes to make the kind of quick throws Brady was tasked with making. He can play the middle but he actually lost snaps to Edelman because of the gameplan and potential YAC you need to see when passing in <3 sec.
 
According to Fred Kirsch, he returned to the sidelines and was in uniform with all his pads intact. He was standing. No trainers were working on him.

That's the best sign and, I think, the reason why there isn't much to say about it. He's not been getting xrays or treatment that has leaked to the press because he hasn't needed any.

Folks, it was on FREAKING CBS NATIONAL TV. If anyone taped the game, it is at the start of the 3rd quarter - - he's STANDING right there in full uniform in front of a sitting Brady on the sidelines.

Fred Kirsch's "inside scoop" was seen by anyone with a working television set.
 
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While the back shoulder throw pretty much equals a high rate of success due to lessening the CBs ability to cover, it is also somewhat difficult to pull off on a regular basis for 2 players who may be 1/10th of a second off in their respective heads, and are attempting to develop chemistry together.

I don't think we've seen the end of the back shoulder timing throws, but I also applaud those who made the decision to incorporate some other routes, as there are plenty of ways that Llyod can contribute. In some of the past games the back shoulder throw seemed to almost be a wasted look at Llyod at times, but I think they are improving his odds and looks based on the last couple of games.

Hopefully their chemistry only continues to grow with each other during the stretch run of the season and into next year too.

(I bet that we see a back shoulder or two vs the Jets on Thursday, just a hunch)
I don't disagree with anything you mention here. I was just pointing out that Lloyd seems to be learning more of the system/routes so that should make him more effective going forward. This was the first time it seemed like he was just one of the receivers out there.

Though I'm sure there's been plenty of other catches made, it seemed the majority were those back shoulder throws and I won't mind seeing hem continue.
Sunday's game plan was all about playing fast and getting open/seperation quick. Lloyd was repurposed in part because he doesn't get enough seperation let alone early on his perimeter routes to make the kind of quick throws Brady was tasked with making. He can play the middle but he actually lost snaps to Edelman because of the gameplan and potential YAC you need to see when passing in <3 sec.
Those are some excellent thoughts. The game didn't feel dink and dunk to me, but I was somewhat distracted while watching. Offense putting up 38 points on 10 possessions isn't bad and I would almost say close to average for the team.
 
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