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idle thought - surviving a win

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Disclaimer: I've had trouble with my internet connection so I haven't had a chance to read much of the commentary thus far, so as usual pardon me for any redundancy, but there is a lot to get off my chest

    I'm sure like much of the rest of you, McCourty's interception brought more of a sense of relief than the eruption of joy. I felt like I had gone over to the dark side where winning is no longer enough, and if you don't win with dominance you must be doing something very wrong. Still,. I have to admit that as the players walked off the field it didn't seem like much of a win to me. Does that make me a bad person?

    I preface my next comment by pointing out that most of the time it is I who is badgering posters for complaining about coaching decisions. I'm the one pointing out that we don't know 5% of the football the pros do, and don't have any of the info that is being factored into the decision that was made, like injuries, match ups, and tendencies, etc. That being said, I have to tell you folks that there were 2 coaches decisions that I simply can't defend no matter how hard I try.

    1.After Josh made a great call and rushed Ridley up the middle giving the Pats a first and 10 on the Bills 2 yd line with about 2:40 left, he, for some unfathomable reason, rushed to the LOS and tried to quick snap the Bills and ended up with a 2 yd loss when the Pats OL was blasted off the LOS.

    There was no reason NOT to spend the entire 40 seconds getting in the right personnel for a true GL offense, and run the ball 4 plays, either into the endzone or to end the game. The worst case scenario of kneeling down 4 times would have been to give the ball back to Bills with about a minute left on their 5 yd line and no TO's. At best the 5th best rushing team in the league could have managed to gain 2 yds in 4 attempts against one of the worst rush defenses in the league.

    Instead we ran a hastily thought out play for a loss that took up no time, and then ran 2 more passes that looked hardly worthy of the most efficient offensive team in the league (never once looking at Gronk btw) and ended up leaving the Bills 2 full minutes, 2 TO, plus the 2 minute warning to move the ball 80 yds for the winning TO. It was Seattle all over again. Frankly I was stunned and at a complete loss for an explanation.

    2. The second one came on the ensuing drive. Now I'm sure many questioned Patricia's decision NOT to put any pressure of Fitzpatrick on that final drive. I did too. It should have seemed obvious to anyone who watched the game that anytime Fitzpatrick had time to throw the ball (and that was a lot of the time) he was on fire. Extremely accurate. But that isn't what I'm going to complain about. That's one of those calls I leave to the professionals, even when I disagree.

    No what I found totally explainable was the decision to rush only 3 guys and then use one your 3 best rushers to cover one of the fastest and most elusive RBs in the league, who is also likely to be one of the primary targets of the QB. If you are going to rush just 3. why wasn't a DB covering Spiller, and NOT a defensive freakin' END! I can understand the logic of going to max coverage, but its not Max coverage when you have have Ninko covering DJ Spiller. So it ends up with no rush PLUS a wide open receiver who is likely to be one of the first looks in your so called max coverage That my friends would be a poor design for a HS coach, let alone and NFL DC

    OK, I need to get that off my chest, here are the some other miscellaneous comments from the game
     
  2. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    1. The fact the Bills had so much success running the ball was disturbing because they were so consistently successful. I think there were 2 reasons why. First Spiller and Jackson are 2 VERY very good RB's I think those who go over the game will find that most of Spiller's rushing yardage came AFTER he bounced out from the initial hole. In other words the Pats did do a decent job “at the point of attack” however after that, it was 'katie bar the door'.

    2. Some of it was the skill of the RB's, and some of it was poor tackling. But to me, a good part of it was poor defensive design. I'm not mad about it. It happens. Sometimes the things you plan just don't work. I thought the entire defensive plan was just sub par. In that game we saw more big holes in the front seven, more wide open receivers than in the 8 previous games, so it wasn't just the players. Again I'm not mad, they pay the other guys too, and sometimes their game plans are better than yours. It makes it easier to accept a poor game plan when our guys win far more than their share of these battles...but they don't win them all.

    3. It might be lost on us with the very uneven performance by the offense. You know all the dropped balls, all the missed opportunities, the runs for negative yardage. Brady's very ordinary stats, etc, that the offense DID score 37 points. You can only imagine what its going to be like when they get Hernandez back, sort out the TE depth, and play a game where the OL is healthy. You know for most teams its usually death to an OL to lose BOTH their OG's early in a game. ......just not for the Pats.

    4. Speaking of the OL, do you remember when many here were wondering about Solder's ability to play and Volmer's ability to stay on the field. Now it looks like we could have the best OT pair in the league. You know what impresses me most about the offensive line play is this sequence.

    There was a play where the Bills DL literally blew up the Pats interior OL and rolled over Brady for a sack. What I found impressive was that despite having to use BOTH back up G's, it never happened again. In a league where there is so much talk about poor OL play, and mediots telling us how injuries have effected other teams negatively, the Pats lose Olmen on a regular basis and its rarely mentioned, because it rarely effects the OL's productivity.....at least on the surface.

    5. Danny Woodhead is a very dependable and valuable asset to this team. He's one of BB's best UFA pick ups and has the added benefit of killing Jet fans by doing something very productive virtually every time he plays. Yet, although you never know, I still have a tough time rationalizing re-signing him next season due to a combination of his age, cost, and a few other players already on the roster who have the same skills (Demps and Vareen), who might prove more athletic, quicker, and cheaper. It doesn't seem either fair or popular, but it might be a fact of life barring something unforeseen. BB will be looking for draft picks next April, maybe the wealth of talent we have at RB might be a source for adding a 3rd day pick.

    6. Bad day for the rookies. Wilson was invisible. IIRC,. Hightower didn't do much but chase Spiller around, and try to drag down Jackson, and even Jones had a rather quite afternoon outside of about 4 good rushes I recall. Could it be they are hitting the “rookie wall”? BTW- now would be a good time for Hightower to start to show some of the promise we all held for him at the start of the season. Right now, he's been an adequate NFL starter on a decent to good (until yesterday) front 7. But can anyone remember a recent play where he "flashed" any big play potential, any forced fumble, pass defensed, or pass rush. I can't.

    Brandon Spike's season has been littered with "big plays". If you had guessed who would have had the biggest impact on the D before the season, Spikes or Hightower. I don't think there would have been many who would have guessed the reality. I know I wouldn't have.

    7. I have to admit, even I was getting pissed off at the refs for all the flags they were throwing on the Bills early in the game. I don't question that the Bills committed penalties on the plays, but if ever the league wanted to use an example of why the PI should have a a max of 15yds this game would be the one. The Pats didn't deserve either of those PI's IMHO They were holds or illegal contracts not PI's.. Too often a team is rewarded with big yardage for a poorly executed play just because of some incidental contact between a WR and DB fighting for position. In 2 occasions the Pats got more yardage than they deserved for 2 balls that were no where near the receiver. A 5 yd hold, OK, but PI with a 20yd gain, no way. Be honest, if we were Bill fans we all would have been going nuts.


    8. I still have faith that by the end of the year this defense is going to be OK. Getting Chung and Talib will help a lot, but the thing this defense needs to do more than anything is to keep playing, It will get better, believe me. As bad as it seems after yesterday, its STILL better than last season. Maybe not a lot but statistically better

    Don't forget that last year's defense truly WAS bad. The athletic talent in the secondary has vastly improved over last year, And most of us would agree that we did see signs of improvement over the last 2 months as bad as it was. Also consider this. At the end of the year the 16 best teams in the league made the playoffs. Of those 16 top teams the Pats much maligned group ranked 5th in almost every category. In other words an above average showing playing against an above average group

    I think that over the next 2 months we should expect to see an even greater jump from this more talented, but less experienced group. Have patience and bear with the doom sayers. Here is the good news. By the end of the season BOTH the Pats offense and defense will be markedly better than the offenses and defenses we put on the field last season in January. The bad news? I think the teams we will be facing in the upcoming playoffs from the AFC will likely be better, than the ones we faced last season, as well as the NFC representative if we advance to the Superbowl.

    9. Can anyone tell me what happened on Fred Jackson's 2nd fumble. From the last replays I saw, it clearly looked like a Pats player had the ball (Jones I think)

    10. It must be a sign of the declining times when Spike's penalty didn't outrage me or even surprise me. It was a good football hit, or used to be. Players in today's game have to be smarter, especially Spikes who is likely going to be watched closely by officials more now, and will get little wiggle room from them. The bottom line is that he didn't have to do it.

    Mayo's flag was just plain stupid. Clearly a brain fart from someone as smart as he is....and probably a consequence of all the frustration he had chasing Spiller all day.

    11. If Fred Jackson was a Patriot, he'd be my favorite player. He plays the game with such passion and is so goddamned hard to bring down. He's the best NFL RB no one knows about. Its almost a shame he's in Buffalo

    12. The worst play on defense of the day for me was the 3rd and 16 screen pass early in the game that Jackson converted. The Pats had 3 guys around him, 5 yds in front of the yard marker, and they couldn't hold him down.

    13 The worst play on offense was the 2nd Welker drop when the Pats were backed up on their own GL. They was a first down ball. Moves the Pats out from under their own GL, and could have changed a lot in that game.

    Summary - Try not to get to wrought up over the defense. It will come, believe me, it will come.
     
  3. ThatllMoveTheChains!!!

    ThatllMoveTheChains!!! Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    This particular play killed me; McC came up and tried to punch the ball out rather than just blasting into the scrum to stop forward progress. He's usually a pretty heady player, but that was a boneheaded move.
     
  4. hodgey

    hodgey Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Well thought out post Ken. I would add that I also believe the D will come around if and when BB comes to the realization he cant play a soft zone in a passing league with the players he has. I believe the linebackers are useless in zone coverage, but flash in blitzing situations. I think Hightower in particular is playing read and react opposed to his strength on attach mode. All your other points are spot on. The coaching decisions and schemes have been the biggest problem for this years Pats. Good news is there's plenty of football left.
     
  5. Easy Eason

    Easy Eason Rookie

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    The 3rd and 16 play was one of two plays that sum up the non-McCourty safety play of the Patriots all year. Wilson met Jackson (who was carrying two Patriots) 3-yards from the 1st down marker and tried to tackle him standing up only to be pushed back 3.5 before he could bring him down.

    The other play was a 4 yrd pass to Johnson over in the flat on 2-12 where Dennard had him contained to the outside and Gregory took a Merriweather-like route behind Dennard to take away the sideline as well and allow Johnson to cut inside and gain 10 yards for a first down.

    I agree with the defense. They will get better as they the season goes on if the can stay relatively healthy. Unlike the aging defense of the 05-08 seasons, I actually feel this defense is better suited to playing every weak and a bye may not be in their best interest.
     
  6. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ehhh ... we won but I felt dirty enjoying it ... a hot shower did not help.

    I had nightmares of that flag in the end zone ... that was a horrible call.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  7. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Will we get Chung back? If so, can he stay on the field? If so, could he be used as a cover LB for TEs in passing situations? Not that he can cover well, but he is actually better than our LBs at this important task. It was brutal watching Buff's TEs Sunday.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  8. TheComeback

    TheComeback 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    All I have to say is that their biggest problem yesterday was poor tackling. It's worth noting that hey only practiced in pads once during the last two weeks.

    I don't expect that to continue
     
  9. Gumby

    Gumby 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    On the OL: This was also the play where Mankins and the RG both got injured and taken out of the game. Hard to get mad at them if they were hurt and couldn't make the play because of it; but Logan probably shouldnt have been out there and aggravated whatever has been bothering him already.


    Yes on the fumble. Chandler Jones had the ball. #70 from Buffy came in late and stole it from him.

    This kind of thing pees me off on 2 accounts.
    1. The refs can see he has the ball and is on the ground; but they dont whistle it and stop the play; instead it turns into a rugby scrum while lying on your stomach.

    2. VW (god love him, but he is the example of what happens every time) was standing there and watching the pile - looking to jump in; instead of watching the late arrivals and blocking them out of the play.

    If he had laid his shoulder into #70; that would have been Pats ball - game over.

    This seems to happen everytime on these scrums; the team with man advantage in the pile has more guys outside the pile and instead of protecting the pile from latecomers; they just watch. The latecomer always seems to be the one walking away wiht the ball or tweaking the guy who might have been able to fight for it.
     
  10. BSR

    BSR In the Starting Line-Up

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    A TD pretty much seals the game there and make the rest of the time irrelevant. The whole point of the quick offense is to catch the other team unprepared and move the ball easily. It is exactly how Woodhead (I believe) scored his previous TD as noted by one of the writers. The real problem was the false start that forced them into 2 and 9 which means you have to throw, since again, the TD is the best scenario there. Remember the Bills lost their TO because of injury, not necessarily because they needed them.
     
  11. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ah, yes the Pierre Woods syndrome strikes again
    Girly mon will need to build up off season.
     
  12. BSR

    BSR In the Starting Line-Up

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    Another one of those plays from that game that will haunt me for eternity.
     
  13. jnug

    jnug On the Game Day Roster

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    I just don't think this defense is as good against the run as we want to convince ourselves that it is and that its' BB's unwillingness (well founded I might add) to allow teams to run roughshod over the defense that creates additional difficulties for the pass defense.

    BB keeps his run stoppers out there as much as he possibly can and frankly the Pats run stoppers are not particularly adept as every down defenders. Even keeping a run biased defense on the field as much as the Pats do, they are not shutting down the run, managing only 9th in rushing yards given up (29th in passing yards given up). Imagine how many run yards the Pats might be giving up if guys like Wilfork and Love and Spikes and even Mayo were not logging so much time? Wilford has been out there for 80% of the plays, Love for 60%, Spikes for 77% and Mayo for 97% of all defensive plays. While the Pats can be pretty stout up the middle, to many times guys just bounce it outside where it appears the Pats are rarely able to set the edge.

    You would think that as many pass yards as the Pats have given up and with such a bias toward stopping the run, the Pats might manage something better than 9th in the league against the run.
     
  14. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    7. The first PI should have been a 5 yard holding penalty. That being said, it was a spot foul for 10 yards, so no biggee.

    The second PI was definitely PI and should have been spotted where it was. Gilmore pushed him with two hands as he was cutting causing him to fall. That being said, I don't trust Fouts enough to accurately tell me whether the call could have been caught, and they never showed the replay. It may have been a bad call.

    As for those remembering the Pierre Woods fumble recovery in the Super Bowl, consider that Woods was completely away from other players, unattached. He was down as soon as he was touched. There wasn't any pile there.
     
  15. Fball

    Fball Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    The PI calls reminded me of the replacement ref days.
     
  16. Kulko

    Kulko Practice Squad Player

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    Well after four games like that, i dont think it is a sign of impending insanity if you feel worried by this. Especially when the Offense played mostly perfect in this one, but the only stop the defense could provide was when the Bills spotted them a 3rd and 21 after three successive fouls. (Ok I know there was one more, but really thats what it felt like)

    Also While I am sure that the defense will not be as bad as it was sunday, I am not so sure that it will get that much better soon. The problem has been going on too long and who exactly do we expect to raise his level of play. Chung is often injured, and really he was part of the problem in recent years too. and at CB we just had a lot of misses in the last drafts, so now we are left hoping that some late round picks overperform. I am rather resigned to the fact, that this season like last years will be on Brady and Turnovers again to bail us out. Maybe Talib will help, but the track record of integrating high profile free agents not named Moss, just isn't there.
    That said, Tackling was at an all time low last game, and I don't expect that to continue in the upcoming games, mainly because I didn't see it in the last games and I expect Bill to have a few choice words to say about that in filnm work this week. Actually I believe the guys involved in the 3rd and 15 will seee that for the rest of their football live in NE I am pretty sure.

    As for the fumble recovery, that really sucks, but injuries are seldom in these piles and its somehow part of the established football culture. Luckily it didnt come down to that mattering.

    As for the goalline play, I agree with you, that it was probably the wrong tactic in this situation, but its hard to reign in your instincts. Overall I would say, the track record for this "surprise" plays just isn't there, and the opponents definitely know its coming when they play the Pats. Most of these plays seem to end just outside of the Receivers reach, because TB is also hurrying the throw, or like that one tackeld for a loss, because our OLine is mentally not ready too. Why not have them line up immediately for the QB Sneak, and if its not there let TB audible to a normal play while making it hard for the D to communicate. because they are all in there stances already.

    On the good side our grasp on the division title is now fairly secure, and only a double loss to Miami would be putting that at serious risk.
    On the bad side all our bye opponents missed there chance to drop a losable game too, so thats getting more remote by the week. Given that we will be facing 50-50 odds at best in all potential playoff games with the exception of indy, this extra game will hurt.
     
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The whole D pooped the bed on Sunday.. penalties, out of position and a poor game plan. They did not take away any part of the Bills Defense..

    The most telling stat, is 180 yards after the catch for Buffalo... poor tackling, poor angles and just a piss poor effort... gotta get better.
     
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Across the league this weekend it was as if the regulars were saluting the replacement refs performance by aspiring to replicate it. Which they do to some extent each and every week. This weekend they just outdid themselves... But it gets largely overlooked because it is what it is when you're the regulars...and it's mid season and the media has plenty of other fish to fry.
     
  19. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims On the Game Day Roster

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    The NFL is getting as bad as the NBA because it has so many subjective rules that are so hard to call.

    Maybe, the best we can hope for is that the NFL changes the consequences of some penalties lessening their effect on the game. For a longtime, I've been a proponent of changing pass interference from a spot penalty to just 15 yards and an automatic 1st down. Now, I believe that defensive holding shouldn't be an automatic 1st down. Lowering the penalty and calling everything more closely across the board will clean up play and make the game easier to call for its officials.

    The other problem is personal foul calls. They have too much effect on the game. My solution would be that aside from face mask and horse collar infractions that actually effect the outcome of the play personal fouls would not effect down and distance. The penalty should just be 15 yards along with fines against the violator and his team. No more game-changing automatic 1st downs because some defender misjudges when the QB goes to duck resulting in a helmet to helmet collision.
     
  20. ThatllMoveTheChains!!!

    ThatllMoveTheChains!!! Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Agreed, PI is broken in how it's written, interpreted, and enforced. Games shouldn't hinge on underthrown 40yd bombs where the only infraction by the DB was the receiver suddenly turned right into them. I'd be very happy if they cleaned up the rule and made it a 15yder; they could test run a spot foul if the infraction was blatant (tackling the WR before the ball was even close).

    Offensive holding is another rule that really needs to be fixed.
     
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