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How Many New Players Will We Actually Get From This Draft?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by DW Toys, Apr 4, 2012.

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  1. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    We all go to the end of April with Sugar Plumbs dancing in our head as Draft day appears. Except the Patriots fans that know how Belichick works perhaps Pats fans go in with low expectations, or at least they say that. I really think that we still all remain optimistic until we see the results at the end and see obvious flaws that most in this forum, will point out and be astutely correct.....But in all nievity we still hope that each and every selection makes an impact.

    Trading down is an unpleasant subject to Pats fans.In fact Andy Hart just mentioned that since BB has been "buying the groceries", He has traded out of the first round pick for a future first round pick three years, and a total of eight times Belichick has either traded down or out with his first-round pick. And he’s traded down or out with a first-round pick in each of the last five drafts.

    In fact it is proven BB is better at picking up FA, trades, UDFA than he does with his unremarkable down trading that have brought mixed results. It is also pretty ambitious thinking from all NFL fans and management that a single Draft day can make a Teams fortune, although a few have struck gold that day like the 74 Steeler Draft. Just don't be surprised at the results I have found.

    There are 32 NFL Teams and all of the fans of each Team fan listens to the "Build Through The Draft" myth spun by the experts.

    In Last years Draft 254 players were picked. Only 47 on them became actual full time starters or just 18%. . That is not even two players per Team. Another 4 started in at least 10 games and another 18 started in at least 5 as they worked themselves higher on depth charts. So we can use 69 as an extended success number or 27%. The single or few starts can be attributed to roster injury or end of year implications. Kicking game players were not figured in of the few in the 254.

    Over a three year period on time, some of these 69 players will be injured, be traded or just be replaced by better players so the initial number goes down, but the fact that other Drafted players this year will ascend to be starters or high profile players and the percentages even out.

    The Pats go to the Draft with six choices. Honestly, the chances are that less than two (say two) will work out to be full time starters or impact players on this Team. They do increase in success the higher they are Drafted!

    The first and second Team All Pro players from 2011, over 90% were first or second round Draft picks.

    The Point? The Pats have the opportunity to trade up and perhaps gain maybe three high profile players. Those are actually considered a good Draft. Six of those we have now for April, if we stand on those choices, 4 will wash out. The percentages say to uptrade and BB swapping down has only gotten us next years picks. It's like Groundhog Day with Bill Murray.

    All NFL Fans have the same problem. "All seven choices will make my Team!"...Nyet, won't happen.

    In the 2011 Draft the Team with the most starters from the Draft was the Cleveland Browns. One of the least amount of Starters in 2011 was the Packers at 0 for 9. The Browns had a need to get those guys playing. The Pack can wait to develop them. Better Teams can wait on players. BPA is also a myth. Teams to pigeon hole needs which brings us to the Pats.

    .......At the end of the Day PASS RUSHERS ,...... we can't be looking for pass rushers from this Draft to replace the two we lost because chances are (and by facts) only two from our whole Draft will be quality players.

    How do we obtain more pass rush from the loss of Anderson and maybe Carter? Scott might be o.k. but to say we are going to positively get two in the Draft may be folly. I say take one of these 1st round picks BB will likely trade anyway and go after Jared Allen.....or just package all your choices up to get to the front so you can get a couple....THE PASS RUSH IS WHAT EVERYONE HAS SAID THE PATS BIGGEST 2012 NEED IS.

    Everyone made fun of Ditka and the Falcons last year of packaging up choices to get the guy they wanted. Wasn't that dumb.

    Year after year it has been proven the actual Team Draft success is 17% of quality players retained for a term of three years for determination.

    Your Thoughts?

    DW Toys
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  2. fester

    fester Rookie

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    So that is where you get your 18% success rate number that you bat around... first year rookie full time starters. That is a very narrow and restrictive filter that also neglects to account for team quality (very bad/talent shallow teams will have, all else being equal, more rookie starters than very deep veteran teams for instance...). A better metric would be how many players have been extended/offered new multi-year contracts at or above the 1st or 2nd round RFA tenders average annual value level.

    The point of building through the draft is not first year starters but 2nd and 3rd year cheap but very talented starters. The only way for teams to be successful on the field and on the balance sheet is to have a decent chunk of its core players on either massively undervalued vet FA contracts OR on rookie deals. One or two years of FA binging can be papered over, but over the long run, which we all agree is that the Patriots management are long-runners, that produces very high variance results.
  3. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jared Allen isn't happening unless he takes a pay cut. Coming off a 22 sack season, he'd have every right to completely laugh at anybody who asks him to take a pay cut. It's not happening. Give it up.
  4. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    I agree. Three years is a very fair determination I have mentioned. But we as fans look at the Draft that all six choice will help in 2012. It is not realistic. My Thread is how many will we really get?

    Recycling your core of roster is definitely important and that is what the Draft does for you. But we as fans overcalculate the impact our Team gets from the Draft from that specific year. We don't get as many as you think that can play even in this age of expanded media and computer aids.

    Now that figure for that Team can increase their success rate if they have more second or MOSTLY first rounders like I stated you see in this years first and second Team Pro Bowlers. So my point is BB trades down for "value" and it has been a mixed bag at best. 18% is a realistic picture of what actual starters come from the Draft. The best Teams need fewer to Start, but I think the old adage BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE is no longer true, In this age of specialization, as every Team targets needs.

    The Pats need not one but two pass rushers.Will BB trade out to avoid them so he can claim "value" in lower rounds?

    Will he use the choices he is itching to rid of anyway and get a Jared Allen or the like?

    Or will he actually move his chips upward to gain some blue chip players and thus...we actually get more "players" of value that way?
    DW Toys
  5. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Example only Cousin....but if you price Anderson and what he got and Carter together, it might not be far off.
    DW Toys
  6. fester

    fester Rookie

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    A methodological question here, and then a critique --- on your 18% that is first year full time starters --- that is too restrictive on two counts for the point that I think you are trying to make.

    Count 1 --- that 18% excludes Aldon Smith (16 games played, 0 Gntames started Aldon Smith: Game Logs at NFL.com) but given the rest of your argument, Smith is a player in your mind that the Patriots should trade away #27, and #31 if San Fran is dumb enough to accept the offer.

    Count 2 --- maybe it is an imprecision in language, but an 18% hit rate on 256 draft picks (7 rounds +32 comp picks) implies 1.44 starters per team per year. That implies full starting line-up turnover every 15 years. That is not even close to the case (see Patriots starting line-up in both Super Bowl losses 10 of 11 starters turned over on defense, 7 or 11 on offense)

    To your larger point, the trade-off is short term versus long term.

    Jared Allen at a cap hit of $10 to 15 million next year and a cash hit of $20 million is almost certainly better than anyone the Patriots can draft at #27 and #31. However what is the residual value of him in 2014 when he is almost certainly on the steep downslope of his career AND his cap hits have prevented the Patriots from improving other areas of need on the team with anything other than rookies or Vet Min free agents.

    If the Patriots played the window system, then I would concede your argument -- go for broke in 2012/2013, and get ready for a long reconstruction after that, but if the assumption is the Patriots don't play the window game, then continually restocking the cheap labor pool with the expectation that every few years they will hit on an elite player (Mayo, Gronk, Hernandez, potentially Solder and or Vollmer, potentially McCourty etc) And everyone in that list with the exception of Mayo is dirt cheap given current or expected performance for next season and that is how the Patriots have managed to keep their elite players (defined at Top-4 players at their position in the league) like Mankins, Brady, and Wilfork signed to market competetive deals while still remaining a good team.
  7. reamer

    reamer Rookie

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    Fester, you should post more. That is all. :)
  8. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    You claim the Pats need 2 pass rushers.. What do you base this on? I look at the Pats and I see that they added Trevor Scott to replace Mark Anderson. Scott is actually a better run defender than Anderson was and Anderson was actually pretty decent at the end of the year in his run defense. Scott was a decent pass rusher in Oakland in the 3-4 when he was used at OLB and not at DE in the 4-3. Something that Anderson hadn't had the benefit of in either Chicago or Houston.

    The pass rush was better last year than people gave it credit for. And it was better during the entire season. I can remember numerous threads of people whining and moaning that the Pats didn't have a pass rush because they weren't getting sacks. But what they ignored was the pressure they were getting on QBs.

    With 6 draft picks, the fewest since 2005, I would expect that all 6 would make the team. Especially if all of them are taken without any trades.. BB has yet to cut a draft pick of 4th round or higher in TC during the players rookie year.
  9. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    I know we won't do it But, I would like to trade up for a de with 1a. Hope F. Cox falls past Philly. THere might be some trade partners if he does. SD, Cincy and Chicago. 27 AND 63 for a move up. There are some decent olb prospects. Take one at 31. Re-up Andre Carter to use as a situational pass rusher in our sub-packages. Allen is too expensive. Plus, not really a scheme fit. We failed miserably in the 4-3. Got better when we switched to the 3-4.

    I think we only need 5-6 rookies. Don't want to build depth. We've already done that.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  10. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    That was a fair retort. I love the Scott move as I said, but is he enough if we go DT, CB, O line etc?
    I am not the only who feels that two is the correct course.
    Chances are more than 50/50 he trades out past four or next year.
    DW Toys
  11. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

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    ST: 5
    Ghost, Mesko, Aiken (LS), White, Slater

    Offense: 24
    QB: Brady, Mallet, Hoyer - 3
    RB: Ridley, Vereen, Woodhead, 1 of FB’s - 4
    WR: Welker, Lloyd, Gonzalez, Branch, Edelman - 5
    OT: Light, Solder, Vollmer, Cannon - 4
    OG: Waters, Mankins, Gallery - 3
    OC: Connoly, Wendell - 2
    TE: Gronk, Hernandez, Fells - 3

    Defense: 19
    DE: Fanene, Harrison, Deaderick, Pryor - 4
    NT: Wilfork, Love, Brace - 3
    OLB: Nink, Scott - 2
    LB: Mayo, Spikes, Fletcher - 3
    CB: McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Moore, Cole - 5
    S: Chung, Gregory - 2

    total: 48

    Leaves us w/ 5 spots.

    I don't necessarily agree w/ the logic of the OP but given our team's roster I don't want to draft a bunch of guys who won't make the team. Give me 1 S, 1 OLB, 1 DL and then 2 more defenders at any position and I'll be happy.
  12. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    I understand your point. I tend to use Brady years. I don't know how you feel but if Brady and Allen are playing well for the next three years, I will worry about 2016 when it happens. I care more about 2012 than 2016 at this point.

    It doesn't have to be Allen. Maybe an Osi etc.

    I counted Smith in my 69. I agree on three years but some of these 69 will be done as well so it evens out.
    DW Toys
  13. Sfpat

    Sfpat Rookie

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    Restrictive? Compared to the standard of many on this board (all pro by end of 1st camp or bust)? I agree the 2nd contract is a better metric, but the first year starter illustrates how tough it is for rookies to make meaningful contributions in the NFL and that one should wait a few years before grading draft classes.
  14. The Scrizz

    The Scrizz Rookie

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    Pay attention DW. We're going to have 18 rooks on the roster next year, don't you read OTG's mocks?
  15. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    keen!
    DW Toys
  16. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Same story as every year, I love the draft but it is overrated. Between the draft and the UDFAs the Patriots will have about 5-7 players that make the 53 man roster. 2-3 of those will have some sort of contribution, a couple more may play special teams.

    I actually like the trade down approach unless they make a move into the top 15. Basically from 15-50 there is not much difference.

    Please insert your preferred rating system, I like NFP.
    National Football Post College Big Board | National Football Post

    Pick #15 is rated as a 7.0
    Pick #52 is rates as a 6.8

    Each team is going to have players slightly higher or lower but if your remove the names and become cold and uncaring like BB you see players that are basically the same. The sweet spot is around 30-50.

    With at best a 50/50 chance of making any impact the Patriots minimize risk by moving back without much of a dropoff. There have been a lot of misses (same as every team) but the 2nd round has worked out well (Chung, Gronk, Spikes, Vollmer).


    NFP Scale
    NFP Prospect Grading System | National Football Post

    7.0 Becomes a starter during his rookie year… Becomes a solid NFL player who has no real weakness… Can’t be exploited or consistently taken out of games.

    Dirty Starter Caliber / Specialty Player

    6.9 Contributes first year and starts second year… Must be able to get on the field and make a contribution as a rookie… Expected to start his second year in the league.

    6.8 Contributes first year, but may take time to become a starter… Has the ability to become a starter and will be expected to assume a starting role.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  17. NinjaZX6R

    NinjaZX6R Rookie

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    I rather not trade down that much compared to the last few drafts. I'm fine with trading one of the 1st or 2nd rounders for a future high round selection.

    Also want to target a lot of defensive players.
  18. fester

    fester Rookie

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    Okay, so you have a high discount on the future for football.

    I understand that but it appears from almost every decision made by the Patriots since 2000 that the Patriots management team has a fairly low discount on the future. All available evidence suggests that the Patriots won't ruin both their salary structure and their talent pipeline for future years in order to gamble for a short window. And that is what trading multiple Top-64 picks for a 30 year old defensive end entails. They'll borrow against the future (restructures) and put a pressure on the pipeline (trades for veteran players with a couple hundred points worth of draft picks) but they won't sell out the future for today.

    Expecting anything else until there is evidence to suggest a shift in philosophy such as an embrace of the Brady window is setting yourself up for disappointment as Bill B won't be doing what you want him to do.
  19. fester

    fester Rookie

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    I think there is a bit more roster flexibility than you suggest, especially on defense, but even on offense, a G/C prospect could displace Wendell, a WR could displace one of Gonzalez, Edelman or Branch etc. There are the 5 spots you have identified and probably another 5 to 8 spots where the coaching staffs wants to make some very tough decisions because an incumbent has been pushed very hard in OTAs and camps.

    I agree with you that the Patriots aggregate depth is pretty good and the point of this draft is to fill in some holes and gaps in the future pipeline, especially on defense, but most position coaches could see at least one new face next season.
  20. fester

    fester Rookie

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    The more I think about your metric, the more it is disinformative, at least as to how you have written it up. You wrote that the players you counted as successful were starters for at least 10 games in their rookie years. That by definition excludes Aldon Smith as he started no games for the 49ers. We both agree that he made an impact as a rookie so you included him in the tally for your 18% but you are changing definitions or at least not showing your work transparently.

    You also neglect to account for player development.

    By the end of year 3, most draft cohorts have more than 18% of their players routinely starting. They have to, just because career lengths are too short AND veteran starter contracts are too rich for anything else to happen.

    Let's just take the 2010 Patriots draft --- in year 1 the "successes" defined as 10 or more starts would be: Gronk, Cunningham and McCourty. That same draft class, using the metric of intended starters or started 10 or more starts in 2011 had "successes" of Gronkowski, Hernandez, McCourty, Love, with intended starter but injured success of Spike. The true fall-off was Cunningham. Players develop and it has been repeatedly noted that the biggest jump in a player's ability is often between their rookie and 2nd year. Your metric neglects that, and then you handwave the criticism away. It is more likely that a rookie role player develops into a 2nd or 3rd year starter than a rookie starter devolving into a 2nd or 3rd year role player. Both happen, but the percentages lean towards development.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  21. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Rookie

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    2012 New England Patriots potential rookies:

    Offense

    1 - RB
    1 - WR
    1 - OL

    Notes:

    • Danny Woodhead will be an unrestricted free agent next year.
    • Deion Branch, Chad Johnson, Donte Stallworth, Anthony Gonzalez are either north of 30 or injury prone
    • One interior offensive lineman to upgrade Ryan Wendell, Donald Thomas
    Defense

    2 - DL
    1 - OLB
    2 - S
    1 - CB

    Notes:

    • Two five technique defensive lineman to upgrade Marcus Harrison, Myron Pryor
    • One 3-4 outside linebacker to compete with Trevor Scott, Jermaine Cunningham, Markell Carter
    • Two safeties to upgrade Josh Barrett, Sergio Brown
    • One cornerback to upgrade Will Allen
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  22. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

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    I agree the roster is not so set in stone and there probably are another 5-8 spots where we want a tough decision (Brace, Pryor, Harrison, Cole, WR, OL, etc.). However I don't believe drafting 10-13 guys is a good move. Hypothetically we could trade:

    31 (value 600) for 49 (value 410) and 81 (value 185)

    We could take an OLB at 31 and not add more competition to WR. Or:

    We can pick an OLB at 49 although this is likely a prospect with a lower grade. Now that sacrifice in quality has to be made up for to make the trade down a win. That means the WR you draft should be some degree better than
    2 of Stallsworth, Edelman, Ocho, Gonzalez, Branch, Underwood.

    Since this WR won't get many opportunities to help the team where is the benefit? This doesn't just apply to WR either. OL and CB positions are in a similar scenario. I'd rather trust the vets we have there and get the better prospects at positions where we have serious need.
  23. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Fair enough on your reply ...but...BB could be gone as well or out to pasture as the GM.
    2007 was a year BB took a different approach to give it hell and go all in and he was less than two minutes and a miracle catch from the best season ever.

    I disagree with you on the first rounder because if he gets another first this year............ he will trade it in 2013. Don't you get it? It makes no difference. He will rotate that pick forever unless someone makes a good argument on a Lardarius Webb or an Allen now to help the Team now.

    Answer honestly. Do you care about 2012 or are your more cautious to guard future years two or three from now? You can't have it both ways without sacrificing one year or the other. I am alive in 2012, Brady is still healthy in 2012 so I say I want them to win now. Who knows about 2016. If we are going to use Allen as an example. hell yes I want this Pro Bowler who is playing at a very high level who is also three years younger than the "aged" Cater who by the way, played pretty darn good too.

    Let's assume we can get three years out of Allen (if we use him as an example). I am not even concerned that he would not be willing to reconstruct his contact for another year or two to get to play here. Somebody else said he got 22 sacks and has big money coming the next two years so why would he want to be traded?....Wait Cousin, we are talking Vikings. No shot at any playoffs for maybe....three years.

    My point is all being equal it takes three years for a high impact NFL Player to emerge on average. As I said only 18% start across the league year one. What would you suggest they do for a rush in the meantime? We got a shot to get a guy like Sheard(who BB whiffed on) who can play, great. Draft him and start him. Seymour did. But my whole thread is based on the likelihood that only two of the six Draft Choices by year three will become impact NFL players or full time starters.

    BB is successful today because of his Coaching prowess, certainly not his Draft eye. If that was better we wouldn't need to be asking the question who is going to rush the passer or take the top off the defense.
    It's his Coaching that works.

    This so called pipeline for future years is a myth. He will trade the extra first pick every year so it has no value if you never use it. Yep... it can get us a second....but the talent is different. Check this years Pro Bowl roster.
    DW Toys
  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Yes, well, you are the one who, for years said that Sanders stunk and yet he stuck around. You've been on the "Get rid of Slater" bandwagon as well, yet, the Pats made it a point to bring him back.

    Is Trevor Scott the ONLY move they'll make? Who knows. You sure as hell don't and neither do I. The likelihood is that the Pats add someone. But, I have news for you, the Pats were getting plenty of pressure with the D-line of Love, Wilfork, Deaderick with Carter as the Elephant and Ninkovich on the opposite side. Scott isn't in Carter's league, but he should be as good as Anderson. Then there is the Jermaine Cunningham enigma. This is year 3. And let's not forget Markell Carter.

    And your Topic was how many players would the Pats keep. Nothing you replied to me on did anything to suggest that it would be less than 6. But that is the norm for a reply from you. You don't actually respond to what is talked about. You spin around in flailing attempts to make sure you can't be wrong.. And it fails more often than not..
  25. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey


    You might as well add Chad Johnson to that list because, unless something major happens, Chad will be on this roster come opening day thanks to his restructure.

    I notice you are missing Nick McDonald from this list as well. The Pats made it a point to keep him around even when they had Wendell and Connolly healthy. Expect McDonald to be on the roster.

    I don't understand you putting Marcus Harrison on the Roster when he's done nothing in the league. He's a camp body..

    Marquis Cole is nothing special either. He's a guy who is going to be fighting for a roster spot. He got a 1 year deal with minimal SB..
  26. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Myron Pryor is not a 5-Tech defensive Lineman. Neither is Marcus Harrison. Harrison is a potential LDE at best, but more than likely, just a camp body. The guy hasn't been able to stick anywhere. And that includes a 3 day stint with the Pats this past fall.

    Unfortunately, the Pats are not going to find TWO "Five-Tech" DEs in this draft. Not with where they are picking. Heck, they are going to be lucky if there is ONE available who can come in and be effective by mid-season.

    The rest i can basically agree with you on..
  27. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The fact that Anderson was a much better run stopper during the end of the season seems to fall by the waistside for some of our 'expert' posters. I certainly agree with you.

    I also agree that I don't see all of this gloom and doom with excessive needs and replacements.

    The thought of adding a blue chip guy on the DL, and also a pure edge rusher with an additonal high pick would significantly boost this team tremendously. I see no reason that these 2 guys won't be chosen.

    One more in the secondary would be nothing more than icing on the cake, although I'm not counting on it.

    I don't see anything but additions from last yr, and potential high draft picks. We're already solid up the middle with Wilfork, Mayo/Spikes, and Chung. That's a fact. Another fact is that the secondary (biggest problem by far on the defense) has already been improved right off the bat with a healthy Chung, the return of Dowling, a full season by Moore, the addition of Gregory, and the addition by subtraction of Molden, Ihedigbo, and Brown.

    With a ton of time left for free agency and roster cuts + high draft picks, I am not even coming close to seeing all of this doom/gloom about the defense somehow getting worse.
  28. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

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    - We've restructured players and then cut them in camp, at least that's what I've read on here. Regardless of Chad I don't expect us to keep more than 5 WR's given our TE's and Slater's ability to play WR if needed.

    - Do you bump off Wendell for McDonald? If not who? I wouldn't want to go any more than 24 players on offense.

    - I put Harrison on because they went and got him early in FA. Says to me they wanted him. He could easily be cut though.

    - Yes Cole is nothing special. But between Cole, Will Allen, Ross Ventrone, Malcolm Williams, Antwan Molden and UDFA's we can find a competent 5th CB. I just picked a name.
  29. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I fully agree with the thought that Chad Johnson will be on the roster. He still has tremendous talent, and we will see if the longer period of time to learn and improve can bring that out a bit.

    I would also agree with the thought on Cole as a CB. If anything I would list my 5 CB's as Dowling, McCourty, Moore, Arrington, and Allen..although I also believe that Will Allen may not be anything more than a camp body too.

    I see one potential upgrade needed at CB, although it's not anywhere as high as most have the need on their list. If the right CB comes along, fine. If not, we'll take our chances with an improved group anyway as it is. Increased safety play will help the CB's too, obviously.

    I see the 'need' for 2 front seven picks, and a safety. That is my wish list for the draft.

    3 players. Anything else is gravy. Many seem to be forgetting that we will be picking up on a team cut or two, at the very least further down the road.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  30. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    You may be right about cutting players in camp who've been restructured, etc...but there's no doubt that they are trying to make the Chad Johnson signing worth something.

    He obviously has a lot of talent still, and the team obviously feels that he deserves the benefit of the doubt with a full offseason and continued learning.

    Just witnessing that tape footage that was going around last week, where he actually looked way better than BOTH Brown and Wallace in certain areas should say something.

    We can definitely go 25 on offense if needed, it's not out of the realm of possibility. Who do we need to bump to fit in McDonald? I don't think we need to bump anyone personally. I'll have to look at your projection again to see what you mean.

    I would also lean towards the feeling that Harrison is here for camp fodder, with the high end potential of increasing depth and competition, but there will be others added. Don't worry about that. We've signed a lot of DL before early in FA, only to cut them. That's what I expect with both CB Cole and DL Harrison, although one of them could stick.

    Allen is probably a much better choice at this point, although I'm nowhere near sold on him either.

    The current roster is nothing more than the April version of the defense. It will change dramatically by August/September.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
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