How bad was the holding penalty by Gronk?

[Deus Irae]

While that might be easy for him to say in hindsight, there is no way of knowing what the refs would have called on the field, in real time. And its not the significance of the hold that is the issue, its the significant result of the infraction that got it called. If Woodhead isn't three yards away from the defender as it happened, it probably doesn't get called. But that hold, as minor as it was, had a major impact on the defenders ability to make a play, which means you have to call it. And if we were on defense and it wasn't called, there would be even more outrage for it not being a hold. People are upset and angry because a call went against us. I get it, we are all passionate Pats fans here. But objectively, it was the right call and a stupid mistake by Gronk.

He's the guy that used to grade this stuff. He knows what he's talking about.

 

[Wilfork#75]

He's the guy that used to grade this stuff. He knows what he's talking about.

Yes, because every official calls the game exactly the same way. Human nature dictates that everybody see's things differently (just look at this thread), so just because 1 guy (even the former boss) would have graded it differently, after the fact, on replay, doesn't mean that officials on the field in real time would have made that decision. And I guarantee if that call went the other way the outrage would be 10x worse. Not calling an infringement that directly leads to a game winning TD is far worse than calling a marginal but 'technically correct' penalty.

 

[Joker]

OK...you love these new refs...that is obvious...tonight one of your "buddies' called a five yard penalty on Atlanta...then moved the ball from the 42 to the 32 yard line...the rest of your new pals all got together and agreed on the spot...yeah...wow...really, who cares, they're doing great!!!!

 

[italia44]

It's not a call that's made with real officials. That being the case, what "risk" was he supposedly taking?

Ridiculous assertion.......Any official,temp or experienced,COULD have made that call.Gronk had his left hand outside the shoulder pads of Kerry Rhodes and it was,at best,something that might have been overlooked,but guess what?.....It wasn't........All your "superior" reasoning is just more contrary bullsh-t......(I'm sticking my tongue at you,Deus)

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, because every official calls the game exactly the same way. Human nature dictates that everybody see's things differently (just look at this thread), so just because 1 guy (even the former boss) would have graded it differently, after the fact, on replay, doesn't mean that officials on the field in real time would have made that decision. And I guarantee if that call went the other way the outrage would be 10x worse. Not calling an infringement that directly leads to a game winning TD is far worse than calling a marginal but 'technically correct' penalty.

Let's try this again:

The man who used to determine what to call a hold, and what not to call a hold, said that this should not have been called a hold. He said that the regular officials have been trained not to call it a hold. When asked point blank whether or not the regular officials would call that a hold, he said no.

As for calls going the other way, people here were more than willing to admit that McCourty should have been called for PI last week.

 

[Wilfork#75]

OK...you love these new refs...that is obvious...tonight one of your "buddies' called a five yard penalty on Atlanta...then moved the ball from the 42 to the 32 yard line...the rest of your new pals all got together and agreed on the spot...yeah...wow...really, who cares, they're doing great!!!!

I'm not a fan of these refs at all. In fact I think the whole situation is ridiculous. But I don't think its fair to put the blame of the Pats loss on anyone but the offense, special teams and coaching staff. The referees had nothing to do with the Pats loss, so to blame them for what was a correct call is ridiculous. If you want to look at terrible calls on other games than I agree, the level of officiating at times has been poor. But to single out one play and blame the loss on that I don't agree with.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ridiculous assertion.......Any official,temp or experienced,COULD have made that call.Gronk had his left hand outside the shoulder pads of Kerry Rhodes and it was,at best,something that might have been overlooked,but guess what?.....It wasn't........All your "superior" reasoning is just more contrary bullsh-t......(I'm sticking my tongue at you,Deus)

:confused2:

As I said earlier, in one thread or another, the only 100% in football is the win/loss column. Beyond that, we use probabilities. In this case, the guy who used to decide what was and wasn't called a hold, in terms of interpreting the rule, said this wasn't holding and regular officials wouldn't make the call.

At this point, the people arguing that it was the right call are the ones being contrarians, to use this board's favorite misused term.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not a fan of these refs at all. In fact I think the whole situation is ridiculous. But I don't think its fair to put the blame of the Pats loss on anyone but the offense, special teams and coaching staff. The referees had nothing to do with the Pats loss, so to blame them for what was a correct call is ridiculous. If you want to look at terrible calls on other games than I agree, the level of officiating at times has been poor. But to single out one play and blame the loss on that I don't agree with.

It wasn't "a correct call". When you figure that out, you will begin walking down the path of enlightenment....

 

[Dodie]

an awful call imo but those type of calls happen on any Sports, suck it up and live with it

 

[Joker]

Apologies, Wilfork...I incorrectly surmised you were OK with this dog and pony show Goodell has hoodwinked us with...the play you are debating with Deus can be viewed a number of ways...what I am incensed about is the total LACK of NFL rules knowledge by these replacement people....Goodell HAD to know a strike was a distinct possibility earlier this year...and THIS is his contingency plan???????.Division Two and Three college refs, high school guys, a guy with a fan page on Facebook actually reffing and NFL game????

it's ...preposterous

 

[italia44]

:confused2:

As I said earlier, in one thread or another, the only 100% in football is the win/loss column. Beyond that, we use probabilities. In this case, the guy who used to decide what was and wasn't called a hold, in terms of interpreting the rule, said this wasn't holding and regular officials wouldn't make the call.



At this point, the people arguing that it was the right call are the ones being contrarians, to use this board's favorite misused term.

Your 30,000 posts have improved your typing skills,but have done nothing for your poor reading skills.I didn't say that I agreed with the call.I said,along with many others,that it was poor situational anylsis by Gronkowski to risk such an untimely penanlty.

That being aside,I'm sending you my luv,along with a double smilie.

 

[Deus Irae]

Your 30,000 posts have improved your typing skills,but have done nothing for your poor reading skills.I didn't say that I agreed with the call.I said,along with many others,that it was poor situational anylsis by Gronkowski to risk such an untimely penanlty.

That being aside,I'm sending you my luv,along with a double smilie.

I get what you said. It's just not a good argument. If a call's not to be made, then taking the action is not poor judgment and is not poor situational analysis. It's actually just the opposite. If you know that the officials aren't calling action "a", you perform action "a". That's pretty basic stuff. People here are acting as if that's something that's an indication of a poor decision. It's not. It's how sports, and pretty much every field governed by rules, works.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Let's try this again:

The man who used to determine what to call a hold, and what not to call a hold, said that this should not have been called a hold. He said that the regular officials have been trained not to call it a hold. When asked point blank whether or not the regular officials would call that a hold, he said no.

As for calls going the other way, people here were more than willing to admit that McCourty should have been called for PI last week.

An if he was still in that position I might take his opinion as fact like you do. But he is not and it's still just an opinion. When I get home ill post the screen caps of the entire play and you can show me where I am going wrong because I'm obviously missing something.

As for the McCourty PI call, any logical person can see that. Bit let's see how fans react in a close call that goes against the Pats in an important situation.

 

[Deus Irae]

An if he was still in that position I might take his opinion as fact like you do. But he is not and it's still just an opinion.

With any subjective call, it's always going to be opinion, 100% of the time. In this case, that opinion belongs to the man who used to decide (with the guidance/agreement of the competition committee/NFL front office) precisely what was considered holding, and who knows the rule better than anyone other than the current big dog of officials. This isn't "Well, Hochuli called it, and I trust Hochuli..." this is "Well, the guy who defined the rule called it....". That's a huge difference.

I might have occasion to disagree with Pereira based upon how he's seeing a hand, or the like. I might even disagree with his general take on a call. Hell, I've probably done it on this board. When he goes back over a play, though, breaks it down all the way and says that he'd specifically tell his officials not to call this a penalty, and why, I'm going to take that seriously. That's especially true when that same officiating crew has already let a much more egregious hold go by in the end zone when it was Gronk who was the victim.

When I get home ill post the screen caps of the entire play and you can show me where I am going wrong because I'm obviously missing something.

I've seen it enough. Pereira's seen it enough. There are stills of it around here somewhere. It is what it is, and it was what it was, and it was a bad call.

As for the McCourty PI call, any logical person can see that. Bit let's see how fans react in a close call that goes against the Pats in an important situation.

It wasn't called. It should have been called. Close/not close doesn't really matter.

 

[UK_Pat37]

An if he was still in that position I might take his opinion as fact like you do. But he is not and it's still just an opinion. When I get home ill post the screen caps of the entire play and you can show me where I am going wrong because I'm obviously missing something.

As for the McCourty PI call, any logical person can see that. Bit let's see how fans react in a close call that goes against the Pats in an important situation.

It was a hold...GET OVER IT.

Mike Pereira said it was a hold, Bruschi said it was a hold, numerous other people have said it was a hold.

It was picky but by the letter of the law, it's a HOLD. Gronkowski held on to his jersey, which is a hold, as you aren't allowed to do it. He was stupid to do it in such close vicinity to the play and at such an important time because it was always going to draw a flag...even though he didn't even need to hold him because Woodhead was clean past. Had this been on the other side of the field, it wouldn't have been called.

 

[Joker]

I just looked at it again and I would give it what I call an ‘MC.’ What that would be called in our grading vocabulary is what I would call a marginal call,” Pereira said. “You could make that into a hold because Gronkowski does go outside the shoulder and grab him, and the defender does make a reach, but that’s not a lot different than what you see on every play.

“I just don’t think you want that called. That’s what marginal would be. It’s, ‘OK, we’ll give you credit for this, but don’t call that again.’ It just needs to be bigger [to be called a penalty]. … It’s just not enough.”

Felger asked Pereira if the regular NFL officiating crews would have made the same call, and Pereira’s answer was definitive.“No,” Pereira said.

who to believe...who to believe...the ex head of NFL officials or some "fan" from across the pond with a bad case of "I'm Always Right!!!" disease...

Mike Pereira On Felger & Mazz: ‘Not Enough’ Holding To Warrant Penalty On Rob Gronkowski « CBS Boston

 

[ausbacker]

It was a hold...GET OVER IT.

Mike Pereira said it was a hold, Bruschi said it was a hold, numerous other people have said it was a hold.

It was picky but by the letter of the law, it's a HOLD. Gronkowski held on to his jersey, which is a hold, as you aren't allowed to do it. He was stupid to do it in such close vicinity to the play and at such an important time because it was always going to draw a flag...even though he didn't even need to hold him because Woodhead was clean past. Had this been on the other side of the field, it wouldn't have been called.

It was a dubious decision and I didn't agree with it at the time it was supposedly committed. Nothing I've read or seen has managed to change my initial thought.

That said, it was one of many contributing instances to the loss.

 

[UK_Pat37]

I just looked at it again and I would give it what I call an ‘MC.’ What that would be called in our grading vocabulary is what I would call a marginal call,” Pereira said. “You could make that into a hold because Gronkowski does go outside the shoulder and grab him, and the defender does make a reach, but that’s not a lot different than what you see on every play.

“I just don’t think you want that called. That’s what marginal would be. It’s, ‘OK, we’ll give you credit for this, but don’t call that again.’ It just needs to be bigger [to be called a penalty]. … It’s just not enough.”

Felger asked Pereira if the regular NFL officiating crews would have made the same call, and Pereira’s answer was definitive.“No,” Pereira said.

who to believe...who to believe...the ex head of NFL officials or some "fan" from across the pond with a bad case of "I'm Always Right!!!" disease...

Mike Pereira On Felger & Mazz: ‘Not Enough’ Holding To Warrant Penalty On Rob Gronkowski « CBS Boston

It's a marginal call..which by definition, is still a hold. It's just not one we really want to see called regularly. As I already said on this thread, if that was called every time, we'd be reversing out of Gillette. I'm not happy about the call because they had let the game flow for 59 minutes and let bigger holds go...then they called that minute hold. All I ever ask for is consistency and sadly it went out the window on that play.

He said on twitter by letter of the law that's a hold...so I'm only going off what he said on the day

However, as already said by numerous pundits, it was a hold by definition. Id go as far to say is just on Gronk...if he hadn't of grabbed jersey in a situation where he didn't even need to, it would never have been called.

Like I said, if it's an 'MC' as Pereira says, it's still a hold.

Oh, and I love Americans who throw the English factor into a debate oh, and when I think I'm right, I say it bluntly....don't get too sensitive about disagreements I'm a very opinionated guy, and I'm a guy who likes to get into heated debates, but that doesn't mean I think I'm always right...unless I say I think I'm right.

As for Pereira speaking for other officials...I don't know...I've seen the regulars make some horrendous calls. I'm pretty sure I've seen a regular official call marginal holds before. So Pereira can't really speak for them. And I AM rigtht there

 

[PatsWSB47]

It's a marginal call..which by definition, is still a hold. It's just not one we really want to see called regularly. As I already said on this thread, if that was called every time, we'd be reversing out of Gillette. I'm not happy about the call because they had let the game flow for 59 minutes and let bigger holds go...then they called that minute hold. All I ever ask for is consistency and sadly it went out the window on that play.

He said on twitter by letter of the law that's a hold...so I'm only going off what he said on the day

However, as already said by numerous pundits, it was a hold by definition. Id go as far to say is just on Gronk...if he hadn't of grabbed jersey in a situation where he didn't even need to, it would never have been called.

Like I said, if it's an 'MC' as Pereira says, it's still a hold.

Oh, and I love Americans who throw the English factor into a debate oh, and when I think I'm right, I say it bluntly....don't get too sensitive about disagreements I'm a very opinionated guy, and I'm a guy who likes to get into heated debates, but that doesn't mean I think I'm always right...unless I say I think I'm right.

As for Pereira speaking for other officials...I don't know...I've seen the regulars make some horrendous calls. I'm pretty sure I've seen a regular official call marginal holds before. So Pereira can't really speak for them. And I AM rigtht there

Thank God they don't use the same standard they did on Gronk for every play. You'd get holding on every snap.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Thank God they don't use the same standard they did on Gronk for every play. You'd get holding on every snap.

Thankfully they don't. It has been called in years past but it is rare...the ref whiffed a little on it. Its a hold by definition but it's petty and goes on all the time without being called.