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Globe write-up on Goff.

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by dryheat44, Feb 28, 2008.

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  1. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

  2. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    Just finished reading the story an hour ago. Very impressive; very Patriot-like. Though I'm not yet convinced that using even our own 3rd-rounder on him (or Phil Wheeler or Beau Bell) would be maximizing value, he is definitely someone to watch, beginning with our 4th-rounder.
  3. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    I've seen different posters say they aren't sure about Jon Goff. I ask, for what reason do you have this hesitation?

    First, let's get some of the reasons you shouldn't be hesitant out of the way.

    Production, in the SEC:
    Played in 47 games, notched 307 total tackles, 6.5 sacks, 15.5 tackles for loss, 14 Pass Breakups, and 3 INT's.

    Size:
    6'2" 245lbs (one of the biggest ILB's in the draft, and has room on his frame to add more weight)

    Athletic ability/agility:
    4.63 forty, 4.26 short shuttle, 6.86 three cone, 11.50 60-yard shuttle.

    Intellect: Intelligence, and recog are considered to be among his assets, so that shouldn't be an issue.

    Attitude/coachability: he's a well liked guy with zero red flags, takes well to coaching, and he's a leader on the field.

    Playing ability & ability to fit the scheme: 3-4 ILB is the position most scouts project him at. He's a physical and intense player, who attacks the LOS, and is very good against the run. He's also used to dropping into coverage and mirroring TE's and WR's. He's not a "coverage LB", but his coverage skills are good enough to play all three downs, and he's shown pretty good ball skills for a LB making a few diving catches, and high pointing one INT.

    Just for those who like this kind of stuff, he even looks the part, lol!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Note: I'll be putting together a highlight video of Jon that features some of his play from 2005,2006, and 2007. In this video you'll see him. Attacking the LOS, sacking QB's, sealing and destroying running lanes, laying some ball carriers out, diving and jumping to make INT's, chasing RB's and QB's down from behind, jumping over the pile to stuff the runner on 4th and short (stopped him), stuffing Darren McFadden (and others) in the backfield, and you'll get to witness his speed on the blitz.

    I might have this up as early as late tonight, but it will depend on what I've got going on.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  4. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Why would "most scouts project him at" 3-4 ILB when he's just had a successful career at 4-3 MLB? Most scouts will evaluate and project him as a 4-3 MLB, because 1) that's the position he's played since Day 1 in college, and 2) there's many more teams that play the 4-3.

    I'm definitely re-evaluating, and I love his mental make-up, but he's never looked that smooth, agile, or instinctive on the field to me (limited viewings of Vanderbilt), and blowing up the Combine isn't going to change my mind on that. I also question how good he's going to be taking on guards in the 3-4, since in the times I watched him he looked to be slow to react. I like Leman better for the Pats, and he can probably be had later in the draft, although I'm not opposed to taking both.

    All that said, there are a lot of people here who's opinions I trust and have seen Goff much more than I have, so I can be swayed. Just not by Combine numbers and not by a highlight film.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  5. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    You're correct, he's played in a 4-3 and doesn't have experience in a 3-4. That won't keep scouts from projecting his best fit in the NFL. And, from what I've seen, most scouts are in fact projecting him as a 3-4 ILB. It's the same opinion I came away with after watching him at Vandy.

    How many times did you see him play, if you didn't see him very often? I think that's been part of his problem, not many people watch Vandy football.

    Highlight videos aren't supposed to sway someone's opinion on a player. They're really just so fans can get a better look at some of the college kids coming out, and spot some of the things they might be able to do. I gave you this same answer last year when we talked about Meriweather, though. I don't understand how people can form opinions of players if they've rarely seen them play. It's like watching Asante Samuel pickoff 3 passes against the Bears, and thinking he plays like that every game.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  6. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    People are going to form opinions using the information they have. If I've seen three Vandy games over the last two years, why wouldn't I, or shouldn't I, have formed an opinion on Goff? I know it's not expert analysis, but it's not worthless either. I wonder how many times people have seen Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Beau Bell, or Dexter Jackson play? How many times do you personally have to watch a guy to have an opinion on him. I'll bet once, even if you take it upon yourself to do more scouting later, you don't watch a player play and then think "I have no opinion about what I've seen."

    I've only had fried zucchini twice, but I have a pretty strong opinion of it. Of course, I'm not willing to have my mind changed on that one.
  7. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    That comment (which I worried you might take out of context) was more a continuation of the highlight video remark, which is why I almost went back and edited my post. I'm really only saying that I can't understand how someone (I'm not automatically talking about you) could form a solid opinion of an athlete by having watched them perform in one game, or by watching their highlights. I don't think watching one game is much better than highlights either, as the player in question could have been injured (and you didn't know), they could have simply had an off game, or it might have been the best game of their career. It's a point that I'm making in general, not about your evaluation of any particular player.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  8. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    I knew what you were saying. I didn't take it personally.


    Usually Saturdays I have my daughter all day, so I haven't seen as much college ball as I'd like the past two seasons. So, like I said, in these cases I usually defer to those who have seen the player more than I have, given that they're sensible in their posts (not "we must draft player X. Everybody else sucks in comparison, and you're an idiot if you don't think so").

    But I can't pretend I didn't see what I've seen, either. The fact that you and Ochmed, who is my go-to guy for SEC players, speak highly of Goff carries a lot of weight with me.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  9. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    I've watched Vandy a good bit over the past two years and I admit, I like Goff a lot.

    Even though Vandy is technically a 4-3 team, remember Gatewood was playing DE on one side, so they were a semi 3-4 or 4-3 team. And in his senior year, Goff had help on the inside so his responsibilities were more toward one side of the field or the other; which is similar to spme degre to our defense.

    As I said, I like Goff a lot, but much like Talib he has good tape and bad tape.

    I think Goff's chances of being drafted by us are going to hinge a lot on what Bb thinks of the Florida Vandy game. Florida's team speed is probably the closest to the NFL but they are running that funky spread option, so it is a bit different. I thought Goff had a really tough game that day and maybe part of it was because he had to stay home to guard Tebow, which he failed to do well, and maybe part of it was he was expecting help, which never came; impossible for me to say, but regardless, it wasn't his best day and prospects need to put their best foot forward against the best competition.
  10. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Gotta love the size and speed of Goff. The report that he studies film intensely is also a positive sign. But the adaption to the 3-4 system is a concern of course. Still even factoring that in, I think it's probably worth it to take Goff with our high 3rd round pick. ILB needs a prospect to groom.
  11. jeffbiologist

    jeffbiologist Rookie

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    Ochmed and Dryheat and all. I ask you this here as I hear you are the SEC expert.... Each of us gets "his binkie" here every year(my first by the way). Mine has to be Wesley Woodyard from Kentucky. I watched a couple of his games this year and he dominated. He had 138 tackles to Goff's 113 and he didnt play MLB. He had 15 tackles by halftime of his bowl game. He had all the coaches talking about him at the Senior Bowl. He put on 10# since the then and still ran sub 4.5 with a buzz at the combine. If we are talking a 3-4th rd pick, I throw "tweener" away and take him because he is a FOOTBALL PLAYER and will make any team that takes him.
    I question anyone wanting Goff on the pats for 2 reasons.1-local guys hardly ever do good. I think of D.Terrell. DL Sullivan did ok, a backup. Flutie, well, will always be Flutie. 2nd- ILB is a experience position and we ALWAYS "farm out" these guys to pick em up later as FAs. He is the type of guy to go to say Arizona for a few years and make a name for himself. But apples to apples, how the HELL does Woodyard get 25(!!)more tackles than a very good MLB??
  12. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Woodyard doesn't make sense for a 3-4 defense. He has trouble shedding blocks, fighting through traffic, and he's not stout at the point. He's more of a Tampa 2 LB than anything.
  13. Flatout

    Flatout Rookie

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    Or a SS/OLB hybrid a la Rodney ;) (although that would take a little while to pull off).

    Knocking a college player for having little experience with the 3-4 in college is a bit stupid seeing as how very few college teams even run it. This is because of two reasons: personnel and complexity. To run the 3-4 you need several pretty unique players that are rare to find (which is why when they do appear and pan out, they are at a premium in the NFL). For instance, there are few true run stuffing 3-4 NT's. Also, they type of hybrid LB-DE's you need as OLB's are a pretty rare athletic breed. By far the best two 3-4 ILB's (and best lb's PERIOD) to come out of last year's class, Patrick Willis and Davis Harris, both came from 4-3 base defenses (although Michigan did run the 3-4 in 04 but Harris was an ST player at that point) and have done just a LITTLE well in the 3-4.

    An interesting trend lately is that with the spread offense being more and more prevalent, a lot of teams are running 3-3-5 stack formations as their nickel packages to counter it and employing odd man and unbalanced fronts to better disguise blitzes and put more db's on the field. I would venture to guess that this would prepare players a little better to be adapted to the 3-4.
  14. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Who is this post in response to? Since you were talking about a SS/LB hybrid I'll guess you were talking about Woodyard, correct? I don't think anyone within this thread has knocked him for "having little experience with the 3-4". We were talking about him as a LB, not a Safety, and I said he doesn't make sense as a 3-4 LB, because he had "trouble shedding blocks, fighting through traffic, and he's not stout at the point.", and "he's more of a Tampa 2 LB than anything". That's not talking about his 3-4 experience, or lack of experience in a 3-4 defense, but his playing ability. Also, the way you just described using him "SS/OLB" goes along with what I said.
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2008
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