Gary Guyton Pats most underrated player

[patchick]

If you ask me, the underrated guy is Nink. He has much more athleticism and college production than NE fans give him credit for, was OK in his first year starting and is more than on track with comparable converts like Vrabel and Colvin.

Yet people seem to want him permanently riveted to the bench. :confused2:

I don't get the disdain for Ninkovich either. He has a well-rounded skill set, is very athletic (if not truly explosive), and is still learning and improving after a delayed start in the league where he was largely a long snapper. Statistically, the Vrabel comp is dead on -- here's Vrabel & Nink's respective 5th seasons in the league:

G GS Comb Total Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int TDs FF
16 12 63 40 23 3.0 -- 7 2 0 0
16 10 62 45 17 4.0 -- 4 2 0 0

Or to put it another way: if Ninkovich were an FA on another team, everybody here would be clamoring to sign him.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't get the disdain for Ninkovich either. He has a well-rounded skill set, is very athletic (if not truly explosive), and is still learning and improving after a delayed start in the league where he was largely a long snapper. Statistically, the Vrabel comp is dead on -- here's Vrabel & Nink's respective 5th seasons in the league:

G GS Comb Total Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int TDs FF
16 12 63 40 23 3.0 -- 7 2 0 0
16 10 62 45 17 4.0 -- 4 2 0 0

Or to put it another way: if Ninkovich were an FA on another team, everybody here would be clamoring to sign him.

Why would everyone be clamoring for the Patriots to sign a player that couldn't keep TBC on the bench?

 

[patchick]

Why would everyone be clamoring for the Patriots to sign a player that couldn't keep TBC on the bench?

Well, they're clamoring for the player Ninkovich kept on the bench in college.

(FWIW, Ninkovich did start the final games of the season and is listed as a starter on the web depth chart.)

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

Guyton is a good backup but not starter material, just like Dan Connolly.

 

[BlueThunder]

It's funny how backups grow into starters...sometimes right in front of you


The more reps you get with the first team, the more comfortable you get knowing what everyone is doing...the better overall you become....

Connolly did yeoman's work while Mankins sat at home pouting....he was still on the team for a reason....Not saying he's another Mankins, but he did his job well filling in when needed.....

 

[satz]

Guyton was the fastest LB the year he came out, including mayo. He popped in my eye when he was in coverage against leon washington of the jets. We have traditionally struggled against this dude and as a UDFA he was in man and did a decent day.

I see guyton and fletcher foruming the 2nd ILB core with spikes mayo backup.
felcher in running downs and guyton coming in for a OLB in 3rd and long.

Niv is another one who if you see the 2 interception from henne shows some amazing hands and atheletism.

We are talking about 2 of the most atheletic/fast LB we have here. they are still learning. guyton at 6 5 and 245 is too lanky to play at the LOS but in passing downs his wingspan and speed makes him very effective.

Next year is Niv 2nd year as a starter and he benched TBC and he was so close so many times that a half a step he will be very effectice,. i expect that from both him and cunningham .

 

[dhamz]

I don't see Guyton as underrated at all.

I think most everyone sees him as a back-up who can contribute in certain situations but not a player you want as a starting ILB.

 

[Nunchucks]

Guyton flashes some goodness last year. He still seems kind of stiff to me and had some plays that made me hate him. Overall, he played better and suprised me.

I suppose he is underrated, but I think that maybe Sanders should get that title

 

[ctpatsfan77]

guyton at 6 5 and 245 is too lanky to play at the LOS but in passing downs his wingspan and speed makes him very effective.

FWIW, Guyton is 6'3" 245.

And I really would love to have been a fly on the wall when BB or SP or Nick Caserio tried to answer Guyton's biggest question when they were courting him as an UDFA: "Why did you draft Bo Ruud instead of me?" :bricks:

 

[Froob]

Well, they're clamoring for the player Ninkovich kept on the bench in college.

(FWIW, Ninkovich did start the final games of the season and is listed as a starter on the web depth chart.)

What player is that?

 

[signbabybrady]

What player is that?

Ray Edwards

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, they're clamoring for the player Ninkovich kept on the bench in college.

(FWIW, Ninkovich did start the final games of the season and is listed as a starter on the web depth chart.)

Some guy once kept Brady on the bench in college, too. It happens.



While I've got no problem with people hoping for good things from Ninkovich, I do have a problem with the Vrabel comparisons. Vrabel was earning time against good competition. Ninkovich has earned time against a bunch of players that are lucky to be in the NFL.

 

[woolster22]

It's not just Guyton, but the LB corps as a whole seems to garner an awful lot of disrespect. There's a reason BB didn't sneak a FA signing when he could (Stroud...), and chose to pass on everyone in the draft. They are all young, fast and on the up-tick. I expect big things from these guys this season (if there is one). Mark my words, the defense is going to surprise people this year. Its chock full of youngsters that have been steadily improving. Cunningham played damn well for a rookie at OLB last year and seems to have all the tools to make a jump, Spikes is a monster (with some off the field issues), and the secondary is shaping up to be one of the better ones in the league (if Ras-I makes his way to the field I will be pleasantly surprised). The only spot with serious need is DE. It will be interesting, and very telling, to see what FA's BB chooses to bring in when the time comes.

 

[patchick]

While I've got no problem with people hoping for good things from Ninkovich, I do have a problem with the Vrabel comparisons. Vrabel was earning time against good competition. Ninkovich has earned time against a bunch of players that are lucky to be in the NFL.

I'm definitely not saying that Ninkovich will develop as Vrabel did, that would be too much to hope for. I'm just saying that their 5th seasons in the league are extremely comparable, after slow starts with other organizations, and I think fans are dismissing Nink too lightly.

As for the awesome competition for playing time opposite Willie on the 2001 Patriots, Matt Chatham and 6'2" Roman Phifer weren't exactly a murderers row. Am I forgetting somebody?

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm definitely not saying that Ninkovich will develop as Vrabel did, that would be too much to hope for. I'm just saying that their 5th seasons in the league are extremely comparable, after slow starts with other organizations, and I think fans are dismissing Nink too lightly.

As for the awesome competition for playing time opposite Willie on the 2001 Patriots, Matt Chatham and 6'2" Roman Phifer weren't exactly a murderers row. Am I forgetting somebody?

Roman Phifer was a still quality football player in 2001, so I have no idea why you would think any Patriots 2010 LB except Mayo (and ILB) could even hold his jock.

McGinest
Phifer
Cox

That's the OLB crew (plus Vrabel, of course) if you're putting McGinest in it. That's vastly superior to the 2010 group.

 

[patchick]

Roman Phifer was a still quality football player in 2001, so I have no idea why you would think any Patriots 2010 LB except Mayo (and ILB) could even hold his jock.

McGinest
Phifer
Cox

That's the OLB crew (plus Vrabel, of course) if you're putting McGinest in it. That's vastly superior to the 2010 group.

Well, here's an amusing coincidence to mull over:

2001 Roman Phifer + Bryan Cox combined, full season: 2.0 sacks, 2 FF
2010 Eric Moore in 4 games: 2.0 sacks, 2 FF

Could it possibly be that our standards and expectations for a "quality OLB" shifted dramatically during the Willie/Vrabel/Colvin heyday, and that the likes of Phifer and Cox would never cut it with Pats fans today?

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, here's an amusing coincidence to mull over:

2001 Roman Phifer + Bryan Cox combined, full season: 2.0 sacks, 2 FF
2010 Eric Moore in 4 games: 2.0 sacks, 2 FF

Could it possibly be that our standards and expectations for a "quality OLB" shifted dramatically during the Willie/Vrabel/Colvin heyday, and that the likes of Phifer and Cox would never cut it with Pats fans today?

Anything's possible, but this is highly unlikely. Given that Bruschi was around post stroke and through 2008 (at 35 years old) and that Vrabel was still starting as late as 2008, it's not likely that what we've got here is an excellent and historically underrated group at LB that would be too much for the linebackers of the earlier part of the "decade", particularly since we see how weak this crew has been just by watching the games.

I do find the reliance on the stats to be an interesting place to go, though, considering one could use Moore's comparative statistical success to argue how crappy the Patriots LBs were this past year.

 

[Ring 6]

Some guy once kept Brady on the bench in college, too. It happens.



While I've got no problem with people hoping for good things from Ninkovich, I do have a problem with the Vrabel comparisons. Vrabel was earning time against good competition. Ninkovich has earned time against a bunch of players that are lucky to be in the NFL.

Actually, depth at OLB in 2001 was worse than it is now.
Behind Vrabel and Phifer there was Matt Chatham and no one.
Are you seriously telling me that beating out Matt Chatham is taking playing time from good competition?
I'm glad thought that you think a guy who has been in the NFL for 8 years played 113 games and has 27.5 career sacks, and a guy who was drafted in the second round are lucky to be in the NFL.
TBC and Cunningham=lucky to be in the NFL
Chatham = good competition for playing time

Classic Dues Irae make something up and hope no one notices.

 

[Ring 6]

Roman Phifer was a still quality football player in 2001, so I have no idea why you would think any Patriots 2010 LB except Mayo (and ILB) could even hold his jock.

McGinest
Phifer
Cox

That's the OLB crew (plus Vrabel, of course) if you're putting McGinest in it. That's vastly superior to the 2010 group.

McGinest was a DE that year, and Cox was a MLB, so the competition for 2 jobs was Vrabel and Phifer.

 

[patchick]

Anything's possible, but this is highly unlikely. Given that Bruschi was around post stroke and through 2008 (at 35 years old) and that Vrabel was still starting as late as 2008, it's not likely that what we've got here is an excellent and historically underrated group at LB that would be too much for the linebackers of the earlier part of the "decade", particularly since we see how weak this crew has been just by watching the games.

I do find the reliance on the stats to be an interesting place to go, though, considering one could use Moore's comparative statistical success to argue how crappy the Patriots LBs were this past year.

Let's be clear that this whole comparison was about the 2001 roster. That's the year you claimed the LBs were "vastly superior to the 2010 group" and that "no Patriots 2010 LB except Mayo could even hold Roman Phifer's jock." Obviously, over the course of their careers Willie, Vrabel, Bruschi, Johnson and Phifer were formidable talents. But in 2001? I really think the intervening years have shaded our memories.

In fact, the 2010 LBs across the board (not just Moore) put up better numbers. It may be just "relying on stats," but isn't that exactly what the 2010 LB corps was criticized for -- not "making plays" in the form of qb sacks, forced turnovers, etc? Here's the reality, full LB rosters 2001 vs 2010:

2001 Patriots Linebackers: 13 sacks 19 PDef 5 int 5 ff

2010 Patriots Linebackers: 17 sacks 23 PDef 6 int 7 ff

Now consider that 4 of the 7 LBs on the 2010 team were in their first year with the team, and that all return for 2011. Isn't it reasonable to expect significant growth from the group?