Garoppolo Trade Talks to Heat Up This Week

[PatsWickedPissah]

We typically WAY overestimate what we're gonna get for our QB trade bait...

Also on the table is salting the deal with a young player BB likes instead of pure draft pick positioning.

Just wanted to chime in briefly with my little addendum to this issue. One thing I have not seen mentioned much is the possibility for a player for player trade here...
No I don't have any ideas about who we're talking about here, but I am suggesting that limiting potential trade partners to teams with draft picks that make sense is a bit misguided.

Hello!

 

[Ring 6]

Actually I DO consider Cassell and Hoyer successes. They can't all be GOATs. Is the standard for success that the QBs need to be top 10 QBs?

Two years ago in one week there were 4 games with Pats-connected QBs statting games; Brady, Cassell, Hoyer, and Mallett.

I don't know how you could consider those guys successes. Sure they were successful at staying in the league, but in the context of this conversation we are talking about Jimmy G growing into a franchise QB BECAUSE he was trained by the Patriots. Other than Brady no one brought through this system has even become a decent #1 QB.

 

[varjao]

@AndyJohnson my previous message had a few word mistakes my cellphone dictionary messed up, I already edited the post but I think you got the message, just wanna point out that my last sentence was that the pats should trade Jimmy only for a 1st and some change, I think Jimmy can give them that draft capital.

 

[Ring 6]

Brian Hoyer went 10-6 as a starter for the Cleveland Browns. If you look at JG as a better Hoyer, than as a Browns fan I am getting excited.

I think they are looking for a guy they won't want to dump after 16 games.

 

[Brit patriot]

JG has proven he has mobility, can win games, and his mechanics are sound. That will be enough for someone to trade for him with a high pick.

The only people who will know if they are being ripped off are the ones in Foxboro who see him every week. We haven't got a clue. Bill will do what is best.

 

[Ring 6]

@AndyJohnson my previous message had a few word mistakes my cellphone dictionary messed up, I already edited the post but I think you got the message, just wanna point out that my last sentence was that the pats should trade Jimmy only for a 1st and some change, I think Jimmy can give them that draft capital.

But if they cannot get a first, and are offered say a 2nd this year and a 2nd next, they should still take it. What you wish a team would offer shouldn't have anything to do with the decision of whether what you are getting is worth more than not making the trade.

I'm with you on that phone issue, mine causes some crazy things.

 

[KingChre]

Hello!

Hi! Another voice out there in the cold night, and I thought I was alone.

 

[IllegalContact]

Actually the Skins traded it for a QB. Since Luck and RG3 were both coming out they were guaranteed to get one of them.

There are no similar QB talents in this draft.

right now, mock drafts have trubisky going #3 to the Bears

Coach Fox is in his 3rd year
GM Pace is in his 3rd year

they both have to realize that if they draft Trubisky, both will likely be gone by the time the Bears are good again

JG is Chicago born and bred (Arlingtin Heights, but close enough)

I can't see how the Bears do not make a huge push for him

 

[sb1]

Brian Hoyer went 10-6 as a starter for the Cleveland Browns. If you look at JG as a better Hoyer, than as a Browns fan I am getting excited.

Hoyer is what you call a JAG backup QB. Guys like him (and Cassel) are a dime a dozen. They typically hop around from team to team and there is a reason for that. Hoyer is no different, he is playing for his 4th team since leaving the Patriots, Cassel is playing for his 5th. There is always a place in the NFL for guys like that.

Hoyer is not, never was, and never will be an NFL starting QB.

Certainly not a ceiling I would hope for if I were to pay a steep price for Jimmy Garoppolo. I wouldn't consider a guy like Hoyer a success story as someone developed and groomed in the Patriots system.

 

[IllegalContact]

But if they cannot get a first, and are offered say a 2nd this year and a 2nd next, they should still take it. What you wish a team would offer shouldn't have anything to do with the decision of whether what you are getting is worth more than not making the trade.

I'm with you on that phone issue, mine causes some crazy things.

I disagree....I think he is worth more than 2 2nds

 

[The Gr8est]

Hoyer is a JAG backup QB. Guys like him are a dime a dozen. There is always a place in the NFL for guys like that.

Hoyer is not, never was, and never will be an NFL starting QB.

Certainly not a ceiling I would hope for if I were to pay a steep price for Jimmy Garoppolo. I wouldn't consider a guy like Hoyer a success story as someone developed and groomed in the Patriots system.

Hoyer was also a UDFA, not a high draft pick like Jimmy.

Still, Hoyer might have been handy to have last year in game 4 vs an injured Brissett with Edelman as his backup.

 

[sb1]

Hoyer was also a UDFA, not a high draft pick like Jimmy.

Still, Hoyer might have been handy to have last year in game 4 vs an injured Brissett with Edelman as his backup.

I agree... but I wouldn't want to pay very much for him in any trade.

 

[Ring 6]

JG has proven he has mobility, can win games, and his mechanics are sound. That will be enough for someone to trade for him with a high pick.

The only people who will know if they are being ripped off are the ones in Foxboro who see him every week. We haven't got a clue. Bill will do what is best.

Not being a **** here, but has he proven he can win games? He started 2 games on the best team in the NFL.
He won 1 because the other team missed a last second FG (a team that turned out to have a losing record) and he won the other but didn't make it to half time.

I think it natural that Patriot fans, who were concerned if he could do the job when Brady was out, got encouraged by a decent performance vs Az, and were stoked by how he played in the first half vs Miami, but to turn that into the comments we are seeing about how he is a proven 'great' QB, that he is far better than anyone you could draft, that he is sure thing franchise QB, top 10, top 5, that Jacksonville would love to give up the #4 pick and dump a guy they took #1 overall, who threw for 4400 yards and 35 TDs 2 years ago, to get the 'proven' Jimmy is just nuts.

Lets look at the Bortles example for a second and compare.

Bortles was the #1 overall pick, and was really a consensus. No one questioned that pick. It was the same year Jimmy G was drafted.
Bortles went to possible the worst team in the NFL, and the one that was furthest away from winning.

Bortles started 13 games as a rookie, took a beating being sacked 55 times, but gained 475 passes of experience and played ok for a rookie on a crap team, with 3 rookie WRs. Jimmy sat.
Bortles started all 16 games in year 2 and threw for 4428 yards and 35 TDs. Despite having possibly the worst defense in the NFL they were 14th in scoring and won 5 games. Jimmy sat.
Bortles took a step back in 2016, but still threw for almost 250 yards a game, and Jimmy played a game and a half.

Bortles came into the league on the same day, more heralded, has 1700 pass attempts of experience, had one off year, while playing for a crap team, and now has a new coaching staff. How is Jimmy G playing 1 1/2 games adding up to that and leading to the comment that a team should give up on the guy and trade the #4 pick to get an unproven QB?

 

[Ring 6]

Hoyer was also a UDFA, not a high draft pick like Jimmy.

Still, Hoyer might have been handy to have last year in game 4 vs an injured Brissett with Edelman as his backup.

But the argument is that Jimmy has extra value because he comes from the Patriots and the fact that he was coached here means he is very likely to have developed better than anyone else, and therefore is worth the #1 pick in the draft.

"Being a nice guy to have around" doesn't quite cut that mustard.

 

[IllegalContact]

Not being a **** here, but has he proven he can win games? He started 2 games on the best team in the NFL.
He won 1 because the other team missed a last second FG (a team that turned out to have a losing record) and he won the other but didn't make it to half time.

I think it natural that Patriot fans, who were concerned if he could do the job when Brady was out, got encouraged by a decent performance vs Az, and were stoked by how he played in the first half vs Miami, but to turn that into the comments we are seeing about how he is a proven 'great' QB, that he is far better than anyone you could draft, that he is sure thing franchise QB, top 10, top 5, that Jacksonville would love to give up the #4 pick and dump a guy they took #1 overall, who threw for 4400 yards and 35 TDs 2 years ago, to get the 'proven' Jimmy is just nuts.

Lets look at the Bortles example for a second and compare.

Bortles was the #1 overall pick, and was really a consensus. No one questioned that pick. It was the same year Jimmy G was drafted.
Bortles went to possible the worst team in the NFL, and the one that was furthest away from winning.

Bortles started 13 games as a rookie, took a beating being sacked 55 times, but gained 475 passes of experience and played ok for a rookie on a crap team, with 3 rookie WRs. Jimmy sat.
Bortles started all 16 games in year 2 and threw for 4428 yards and 35 TDs. Despite having possibly the worst defense in the NFL they were 14th in scoring and won 5 games. Jimmy sat.
Bortles took a step back in 2016, but still threw for almost 250 yards a game, and Jimmy played a game and a half.

Bortles came into the league on the same day, more heralded, has 1700 pass attempts of experience, had one off year, while playing for a crap team, and now has a new coaching staff. How is Jimmy G playing 1 1/2 games adding up to that and leading to the comment that a team should give up on the guy and trade the #4 pick to get an unproven QB?

if the other option is to draft Trubisky at #4, then yes....absolutely....run to JG

 

[Brit patriot]

Not being a **** here, but has he proven he can win games? He started 2 games on the best team in the NFL.
He won 1 because the other team missed a last second FG (a team that turned out to have a losing record) and he won the other but didn't make it to half time.

I think it natural that Patriot fans, who were concerned if he could do the job when Brady was out, got encouraged by a decent performance vs Az, and were stoked by how he played in the first half vs Miami, but to turn that into the comments we are seeing about how he is a proven 'great' QB, that he is far better than anyone you could draft, that he is sure thing franchise QB, top 10, top 5, that Jacksonville would love to give up the #4 pick and dump a guy they took #1 overall, who threw for 4400 yards and 35 TDs 2 years ago, to get the 'proven' Jimmy is just nuts.

Lets look at the Bortles example for a second and compare.

Bortles was the #1 overall pick, and was really a consensus. No one questioned that pick. It was the same year Jimmy G was drafted.
Bortles went to possible the worst team in the NFL, and the one that was furthest away from winning.

Bortles started 13 games as a rookie, took a beating being sacked 55 times, but gained 475 passes of experience and played ok for a rookie on a crap team, with 3 rookie WRs. Jimmy sat.
Bortles started all 16 games in year 2 and threw for 4428 yards and 35 TDs. Despite having possibly the worst defense in the NFL they were 14th in scoring and won 5 games. Jimmy sat.
Bortles took a step back in 2016, but still threw for almost 250 yards a game, and Jimmy played a game and a half.

Bortles came into the league on the same day, more heralded, has 1700 pass attempts of experience, had one off year, while playing for a crap team, and now has a new coaching staff. How is Jimmy G playing 1 1/2 games adding up to that and leading to the comment that a team should give up on the guy and trade the #4 pick to get an unproven QB?

Did I say he was a proven great? My whole post was saying we knew nothing other than the fact he won two games, moves, and has good mechanics.

Now how those mechanics would continue once he gets hit if his OL are crap I don't know. But he will be an exciting prospect, especially when he you see so many draft QB's turning up on day one and looking like they have never picked up a football (Goff for example). A win hungry team will see him as more developed and will trade.

So, what do you think he would bring?

 

[Ring 6]

Did I say he was a proven great? My whole post was saying we knew nothing other than the fact he won two games, moves, and has good mechanics.

I thought it was clear when I listed numerous things many have said that I wasn't referring only to you.

But you did say he has proven he can win games, which really is a monumental stretch.

Now how those mechanics would continue once he gets hit if his OL are crap I don't know. But he will be an exciting prospect, especially when he you see so many draft QB's turning up on day one and looking like they have never picked up a football (Goff for example). A win hungry team will see him as more developed and will trade.

So, what do you think he would bring?

The thing is that he is still an unproven commodity. A game and a half doesn't change that no matter how many fans want to change their 'we are screwed we will be lucky to go 1-3' to 'damn Jimmy is a franchise QB' based upon 4 ok quarters and 2 very good ones. Lets not forget guys like Matt Flynn and Kevin Kolb.

Personally, I think there are factors on both sides in evaluating him.

PLUS
He did look good in limited exposure.
He appears to have no major flaw.
He needed to learn a complex offense.
He got a ton of camp reps this year, which is hidden experience.

MINUS
He is still the same guy who was drafted in round 2, and almost the 3rd. (While people like to lambast QB choices as meaning no one has a clue because firsts are missed, there are few that do not go in the first that amount to much)
He has sat idle for most of 3 years
Durability, decision making and clutch play, which are the 3 most important things about a QB are unknown because the sample size is so minute

I think teams will be more focused on the minuses, but its the NFL and there is always a great chance that teams see a player as gotta have, can't miss, and must break the bank for.

I think a QB starved team could easily justified 2-3 picks in the 2nd-4th round range.
I think its possible that a crazed GM could offer a 1st, maybe even as high as 12.

If I'm BB I take the most I can get, and then trade it around to maximize the value.

 

[Rob0729]

Actually the Skins traded it for a QB. Since Luck and RG3 were both coming out they were guaranteed to get one of them.

There are no similar QB talents in this draft.

The trade was for the pick. That is what cost the value of the trade. They used the pick to get RG3. If trade just of the player, they would have given up less. Hypothetically say RG3 was drafted by the Rams and sat for a year, the Redskins would have gotten him for far less the second year (not a perfect apples to apples comparison since the Redskins would have lost a year with RG3 before his rookie contract expired).

The Rams and Eagles gave up similar compensation to trade up to get lesser prospects in Goff and Wentz.

Sure the player the team may be targeting at the pick and the competition for the pick could drive up the price. But the price is already inflated because it is a top pick in the draft.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Zero chance

Bold prediction maybe, but it seems to make sense.

If picks 1-3 are off the table and CLE is offering #12, why shouldn't the Jags offer #4? Who is there at #4 that could potentially make more of a difference to that franchise than Jimmy G?

 

[Rob0729]

I thought it was clear when I listed numerous things many have said that I wasn't referring only to you.

But you did say he has proven he can win games, which really is a monumental stretch.


The thing is that he is still an unproven commodity. A game and a half doesn't change that no matter how many fans want to change their 'we are screwed we will be lucky to go 1-3' to 'damn Jimmy is a franchise QB' based upon 4 ok quarters and 2 very good ones. Lets not forget guys like Matt Flynn and Kevin Kolb.

Personally, I think there are factors on both sides in evaluating him.

PLUS
He did look good in limited exposure.
He appears to have no major flaw.
He needed to learn a complex offense.
He got a ton of camp reps this year, which is hidden experience.

MINUS
He is still the same guy who was drafted in round 2, and almost the 3rd. (While people like to lambast QB choices as meaning no one has a clue because firsts are missed, there are few that do not go in the first that amount to much)
He has sat idle for most of 3 years
Durability, decision making and clutch play, which are the 3 most important things about a QB are unknown because the sample size is so minute

I think teams will be more focused on the minuses, but its the NFL and there is always a great chance that teams see a player as gotta have, can't miss, and must break the bank for.

I think a QB starved team could easily justified 2-3 picks in the 2nd-4th round range.
I think its possible that a crazed GM could offer a 1st, maybe even as high as 12.

If I'm BB I take the most I can get, and then trade it around to maximize the value.

I disagree he doesn't appear to have any major flaws. It isn't definite, but his propensity to hold onto the ball far too long when his first and second reads aren't open hasn't been proven to be fixed. In his only starts this year, neither defense tried to jam his receivers off the line and take away the quick, short routes.

That is still my biggest concern with the guy. Can he be like Brady and adjust when his receivers are being hit off the line and he has to wait for a play to develop on a regular basis? That was his biggest concern going into this season and we only saw a small handful of plays where this happened with mixed results (some good and some bad, but no disaster though).