Felger: Start BenJarvus Green Ellis

[SpiderFox53]

I like Maroney, that doesn't have much to do with it. In the NFL, even if you aren't a strictly north and south runner, you have to establish you can run inside. Barry Sanders did too. If you get the reputation of avoiding contact, you're dead. It's football, not tiddly winks.

Maroney's stats in the last game are meaningless by themselves, the same as you A.P. sample, that's why I didn't comment. Maroney was already having problems avoiding hesitation.

Unless you're saying you watch Adrian Peterson and he's having trouble hesitating or running inside, there's no comparison.

No that was strictly posted to counter the "7 for 6, he stinks" posters. AP is an outstanding back who had a bad game, LM is a so-so back who had a bad game. You can't judge him by that one game. That was my point.

 

[MassPats38]

I should be amazed with visions of the greatness of BJGE, or the horror that is Maroney, but somehow the views do not surprise me.

For those touting the next best option, answer the following:

(1) Reflect back a long time ago, let's call it 2008. How many running backs on this roster demonstrated they could carry a full season as the number 1 back? (Morris? No. Maroney? No. Jordan? No). All were options before Bellichick gave the nod to BJGE, and how many came off the injured list to take that position back from BJGE. Again, maybe Bellichick is plain stupid or just really loyal to veterans on the team in overlooking BJGE. Or maybe, BJGE is a nice utility player that serves as a healthy backup when the other backs cannot play.

(2) Considering the first statement, would it appear wise to give the ball to Morris 25+ times a game, given his age and injury history on the Pats?

(3) Is Faulk an every down back? The most carries he has had in his career is about 11 per game average, and the years with the most carries reflect his worst career averages. He is a great third down back, but he is not an every down back in any way, shape or form.

(4) Even those defending Maroney will not overlook his technical errors/bad decisions in games (I do not suspect his apologists claim he never screws up, he does), but he has shown flashes of what he is capable of doing in games (moving piles, not going down when expected, etc.). He played exactly 3 games last year due to injury coming off a season with 4.5 YPC, which is not exactly chump yardage. But consider this: Bellichick does not store the tape of the last game and never look at it again. For all those pointing to his tendency to dance, I suspect Bellichick is capable of analyzing what is going on, whether it is blocking, the back, or both, and correcting it. If correcting it requires putting in different personnel, I suspect he would if it gives the team the best chance to win.

(5) In looking at plays that don't yield much in the way of yards, is it early in the game or later? Running backs tend to run better when defenses get tired. Is it statistically expected to be a running or passing play based on the down and yardage? Passing defenses offer a split second of delay to running backs, which gives the running back the momentum to get some yards. This is all academic, but in assessing a running backs overall performance, even the recent Pats greatness of Corey Dillon, his early runs in a game may have earned him 3 yards or less a shot, but he got the carries later in the game to net him a higher average when the defenses tired.

(6) In the end, football is not baseball. If a hitter is cold, you can replace him with another available hitter on the roster and the team may well do better. Football is not an individual sport, with 50 things going on simultaneously to produce a particular result. Running backs need blockers (with the possible exception of Barry Sanders), and blockers run the blocks the particular play requires, which may push those blockers toward their individual strengths or weaknesses in techniques. Maroney and BJGE are very different running backs with very different capabilities. The Pats plan to what defenses offer, so if screens are the best counter to a defense, who is the better option? If defenses are bigger and slower, sweeps might be more effective. Is BJGE capable of running those plays effectively?

 

[RayClay]

No that was strictly posted to counter the "7 for 6, he stinks" posters. AP is an outstanding back who had a bad game, LM is a so-so back who had a bad game. You can't judge him by that one game. That was my point.

Yeah, I don't judge players on one game. I don't even judge them on statistically great games either. Usually it's better to trust what you see, then see if statistics back it up.

Interestingly, I did not chart every carry of his career, but i did for two games that inter3ested me. In his limited use in the giants super Bowl he had zero 3 or 4 yard runs (could be wrong, I'm not looking it up again, but he had mostly long runs or very short).

In the SanDiego conference game Maroney had his best performance I can remember. He ran hard, he hit the hole and broke tackles. I remember noticing how great he looked and what momentum he gave the team.

He averaged almost 5 ypc, but most of his carries were 3, 4, 5, ypc. He had some long ones and got stuffed, but when a RB is consistently getting say 2 to 5 yds per, you notice the momentum.

When he's stop and go you notice too. Stats only confirm what you feel as you watch, if there's an effect there.

 

[smg93]

Because just like posters here none of the guys you mention has watched the coaches film nor do they have any knowledge of this teams game plans or blocking assignments. Bill and Matt certainly do. With the exception of Tedy who was still active last season, they all claimed Matt Cassel was not only headed to Walmart but had been outperformed by Gutierrez and KOC. They were wr...wr...wrong as is often the case.

Bill will never throw a player under the bus, and this line has never in my memory owned it's shortcomings, preferring to bask in the reflected glow of a HOF QB with exceptional pocket presence. However we now have BOTH BB and the LT acknowledging there are presently blocking issues that impact the running game. If he were annoyed with Maroney that's the last thing BB would say. And if he was annoyed with Maroney's on field performance he likely isn't the starter for the last 3 weeks since BB has options. Not sure what Maroney might have done with a better blocking OL, but I do believe that 3/5ths of this OL would not still be employed in this league if they were not fronting Brady and coached up to scheme. Mankins is legit, but Light is a fourth string probowler at best and the overall product remains a metaphor for a winning system.

There was a short snipet of Dante kneeling in front of the bench and extolling his guys to make some plays to get the runners going last week on All Access. Thereafter they made some. Not Maroney's fault it wasn't on his watch (which BB indicated included some predetermined run stuffing blocking by Baltimore early on as opposed to a defense shading the pass when Morris and Faulk were in. Any one of the backs and probably BJGE could have run in the 12 yard TD because the blocking was well executed on that snap against a defense that was playing the pass.

Maroney has also improved as a blocker which is something fanboys lose sight of in evaluating a RB - and that's a huge mistake here because BB clearly values and often emphasizes that aspect of a backs or receivers game. Everyone has to block here because the OL can't stand alone. They're smart and they're quick but they are all too often overmatched by speed rushers and/or substantial pressure up the middle. They aren't built to open holes or hold their blocks consistently without committing penalties. They tend to have their personal best success when we feature guys like Dillon and Taylor who open their own holes. The problem with those guys is they don't stand up to the beating. We 1 got dominant season out of Dillon. After that if he got through a hole anyone not on life support could catch him from behind. He had as many tap outs as carries his last two seasons here. Then Maroney got hurt fighting for yards Dillon wasn't available for. In back to back to back seasons. We got half a dozen games out of Morris in Dillon's place before he went to IR. We got 4 games out of reportedly fragile Fred who may or may not return this post season.

Bill drafted Maroney for a reason. He wanted the home run hitter. He can find the short yardage back for short money on the FA market or as an UDFA and they are expendable because they are replaceable. Sadly he was unble to retool his OL to zone block because they couldn't handle it without massive substitutions that basically hamstrung the coordinator. And he apparently felt upgrades on defense were even more pressing so he couldn't turn the unit over via draft. He probably is intending to and this last draft was step one. He has lots of high picks stockpiled going forward and I think more than a few will be used on OL.

Those who believe Maroney also disappointed as a kick returner should read Box's latest thread on ST and the return units performance. Although if your thing is formulating kneejerk reaction underscored by dug in defense of the same, there probably isn't any point. The kneejerk know it alls aren't here to learn or understand, just to vent and disparage. Bill says that Denver ST coverage units are top flight, not that the kneejerks ever stop to consider such mitigating factors, so Maroney or whomever will have their work cut out for them this week if their goal is to impress the fanbase.

Unbelievable. More Excuses. Just to make clear, I'm not a Maroney hater. I'm just stating that posters like you continue to say that he's doing well and that his problems are due to his teammates. That's total BS. Even he acknowledges that he isn't doing so well in his recent interview with Reiss:

"I ask myself a lot, 'What's the biggest difference from me running the ball in high school with my success and me running the ball in college with my success? What I am doing differently?'" Maroney said. "I've come to the final conclusion that I'm not running how I used to run, so I feel like I have to get back to the basics.

"I think that's what everybody needs to do, people in general, when things aren't going right in their life. You just have to step back and see what you got here. So I have to become patient, make my reads, and [play] with no remorse. Just go out and be a kamikaze and throw your body around.

"That's how I used to play, and I need to get back to it."

So if you're not going to believe Reiss, Tedy, Grogan, or Fauria when they say that he is struggling then I suggest that you take it straight from Maroney's mouth because he even agrees that he's not doing as well as he should.

Now I honestly doubt that anyone can characterize Maroney's own stated opinion of his play as a "kneejerk" reaction nor can he be characterized as a fanboy. I think we can also be confident that he does watch coaches film. So if he passes all of those criteria that you mentioned, do you think he can be judged as an informed individual with the ability to accurately comment on his own play this season?

What's become lost in this whole Maroney debate is the fact that there are a number of fans like me who do like him and think he is incredibly talented, especially in open space YET are of the opinion that he isn't fulfilling the potential that his physical talents give him. We don't clamor for him to be benched or state that he's a bust. We just want to see him do better.

And the first step toward that goal was for him to realize that his play has not been up to his standards. I'm glad he has.

Which now only leaves one question to be answered and that is can fans like you do the same?

 

[Deus Irae]

Unbelievable. More Excuses. Just to make clear, I'm not a Maroney hater. I'm just stating that posters like you continue to say that he's doing well and that his problems are due to his teammates. That's total BS. Even he acknowledges that he isn't doing so well in his recent interview with Reiss:

"I ask myself a lot, 'What's the biggest difference from me running the ball in high school with my success and me running the ball in college with my success? What I am doing differently?'" Maroney said. "I've come to the final conclusion that I'm not running how I used to run, so I feel like I have to get back to the basics.

"I think that's what everybody needs to do, people in general, when things aren't going right in their life. You just have to step back and see what you got here. So I have to become patient, make my reads, and [play] with no remorse. Just go out and be a kamikaze and throw your body around.

"That's how I used to play, and I need to get back to it."

So if you're not going to believe Reiss, Tedy, Grogan, or Fauria when they say that he is struggling then I suggest that you take it straight from Maroney's mouth because he even agrees that he's not doing as well as he should.

Now I honestly doubt that anyone can characterize Maroney's own stated opinion of his play as a "kneejerk" reaction nor can he be characterized as a fanboy. I think we can also be confident that he does watch coaches film. So if he passes all of those criteria that you mentioned, do you think he can be judged as an informed individual with the ability to accurately comment on his own play this season?

What's become lost in this whole Maroney debate is the fact that there are a number of fans like me who do like him and think he is incredibly talented, especially in open space YET are of the opinion that he isn't fulfilling the potential that his physical talents give him. We don't clamor for him to be benched or state that he's a bust. We just want to see him do better.

And the first step toward that goal was for him to realize that his play has not been up to his standards. I'm glad he has.

Which now only leaves one question to be answered and that is can fans like you do the same?

How often do Patriots players say "I'm doing fine. It's _________ screwing up every time."? It doesn't happen. Every player knows that they make mistakes, and players here accept responsibility for not being perfect or they end up gone. Of course it's understood that Maroney is not making every possible play. It's understood that no player makes every possible play.

I can't think of any Maroney defender who's claimed that Maroney has been brilliant. In other words, the entire premise of your post is a straw man. Those of us who defend Maroney don't feel that he's been as good as we'd like. We simply understand that a fair portion (not all) of that has to do with things beyond his control.

And before you respond to this, go back and watch games from 2007 and the first 4 games this season. Watch how Maroney is used compared to the other running backs, watch how teams defend the line when Maroney is in compared to other running backs, watch the formations the Patriots tend to use with Maroney compared to other running backs, and watch how the Patriots have started to use Maroney this season in comparison to 2007.

Light and Belichick have acknowledged the problem with the consistency of the run blocking. It's something the Maroney defenders have been pointing out for some time. It's no coincidence that Maroney's been able to break free in the passing game and make 30 yard gains, called back or not. That's a product of the way teams defend him, just as 3 defenders getting into the backfield just as he takes the handoff often has been.

 

[olschool]

BB obviously likes him. I'll go with that.

 

[smg93]

How often do Patriots players say "I'm doing fine. It's _________ screwing up every time."? It doesn't happen. Every player knows that they make mistakes, and players here accept responsibility for not being perfect or they end up gone. Of course it's understood that Maroney is not making every possible play. It's understood that no player makes every possible play.

I can't think of any Maroney defender who's claimed that Maroney has been brilliant. In other words, the entire premise of your post is a straw man. Those of us who defend Maroney don't feel that he's been as good as we'd like. We simply understand that a fair portion (not all) of that has to do with things beyond his control.

And before you respond to this, go back and watch games from 2007 and the first 4 games this season. Watch how Maroney is used compared to the other running backs, watch how teams defend the line when Maroney is in compared to other running backs, watch the formations the Patriots tend to use with Maroney compared to other running backs, and watch how the Patriots have started to use Maroney this season in comparison to 2007.

Light and Belichick have acknowledged the problem with the consistency of the run blocking. It's something the Maroney defenders have been pointing out for some time. It's no coincidence that Maroney's been able to break free in the passing game and make 30 yard gains, called back or not. That's a product of the way teams defend him, just as 3 defenders getting into the backfield just as he takes the handoff often has been.

Whatever man. You keep seeing what your seeing then and keep ignoring all those players opinions who know more about football then anyone else on this board. Who cares what they say, you're always right anyway.

 

[Deus Irae]

Whatever man. You keep seeing what your seeing then and keep ignoring all those players opinions who know more about football then anyone else on this board. Who cares what they say, you're always right anyway.

Matt Light is a player. He is, in fact, a player currently on the Patriots roster, is one of the offensive linemen, and gets to watch the game film with the knowledge of which plays were called and where the holes/runs were supposed to open up. Bill Belichick is the coach of the team, and he knows as much about this as any of the players.

In other words, I'm not ignoring "all those players opinions". But don't let that reality get in the way of your gripe.

What we really need is someone who'll take the time to make gifs of Maroney's runs, and break them down. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be an improvement on "He just dances...." posts. Unfortunately, I don't currently have the equipment to do that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yeah, I don't judge players on one game. I don't even judge them on statistically great games either. Usually it's better to trust what you see, then see if statistics back it up.

Interestingly, I did not chart every carry of his career, but i did for two games that inter3ested me.

That totally makes sense- you would never judge a player based on only one game, that would just be ridiculous. No, you judge players based on two games.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Last night on Sportstonight, Michael Felger recommended starting BJGE this week and benching Maroney. His guest, former Patriot TE Christian Fauria replied that "I wish we could put an electronic harness around Maroney so that every time he starts to dance we could press a button and shock him from the sidelines".

Clearly Felgie's hottie wife and Fauria's wife both have expressed sentiments that LoMo looks "cute". Therefore, the hate.

 

[olschool]

I think it's the hair. He should be on defense with Guyton and Meriwether, for a truly "dreaded" defense.

Actually, he probably would be a pretty good safety, the way he dances, he'd be pretty tough to juke.

 

[moosekill]

Matt Light is a player. He is, in fact, a player currently on the Patriots roster, is one of the offensive linemen, and gets to watch the game film with the knowledge of which plays were called and where the holes/runs were supposed to open up. Bill Belichick is the coach of the team, and he knows as much about this as any of the players.

In other words, I'm not ignoring "all those players opinions". But don't let that reality get in the way of your gripe.

You kill your argument when you use Matt Lights quote for the basis of your defense of Maroney. He could be the worst back in the league, but there would be no way in Hell Matt Light would come out and criticize him. Find some ex players who support Maroney and you have something, until then its a weak weak argument.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You kill your argument when you use Matt Lights quote for the basis of your defense of Maroney. He could be the worst back in the league, but there would be no way in Hell Matt Light would come out and criticize him. Find some ex players who support Maroney and you have something, until then its a weak weak argument.

Belichick said the same thing, though. Not to say that Belichick would readily come out and rip Maroney- no, he'd just say nothing. He sure as hell wouldn't say that the team has had trouble blocking if that wasn't the case. When the starting LT and the head coach both go out of their way to touch upon the fact that the OL is having trouble blocking in these situations, then there's probably some basis for it.

 

[SpiderFox53]

You kill your argument when you use Matt Lights quote for the basis of your defense of Maroney. He could be the worst back in the league, but there would be no way in Hell Matt Light would come out and criticize him. Find some ex players who support Maroney and you have something, until then its a weak weak argument.

He's not using Light as the basis for his argument. He's using BB and Lights comments to support what he says he sees with his eyes.

For the record, with the amount of talking head bashing that goes on here (and rightly so), I would never use a talking heads opinion to support my arguments, former Pats player or not.

 

[holyredeemer]

Belichick said the same thing, though. Not to say that Belichick would readily come out and rip Maroney- no, he'd just say nothing. He sure as hell wouldn't say that the team has had trouble blocking if that wasn't the case. When the starting LT and the head coach both go out of their way to touch upon the fact that the OL is having trouble blocking in these situations, then there's probably some basis for it.

Okay, so let's change this discussion up a bit. Clearly the O-Line is to blame for Maroney's problems. The next question would be, when are we going to replace these bums on the offensive line that can't block for our All-Pro running back? I'd hate for Light and the rest of the guys on the line to ruin Maroney's possibly stellar career. And, if it's not the talent on the O-Line, but the blocking schemes they cant seem to handle, then when are we going to give Dante the boot?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Okay, so let's change this discussion up a bit. Clearly the O-Line is to blame for Maroney's problems. The next question would be, when are we going to replace these bums on the offensive line that can't block for our All-Pro running back? I'd hate for Light and the rest of the guys on the line to ruin Maroney's possibly stellar career. And, if it's not the talent on the O-Line, but the blocking schemes they cant seem to handle, then when are we going to give Dante the boot?

That's not what anyone's saying, either. After all, Maroney's had a great deal of success running behind this exact same line in the past. Clearly there is a shared issue between the line and Maroney, and whatever it is needs to get worked out so that we can really unleash our running game. Maroney is capable of running, and our line is capable of run blocking, so its' reasonable to expect that they'll get untracked. It's not reasonable to freak out because Maroney had a bad game against one of the best run defenses of all time.

 

[SpiderFox53]

Another point, metioned in Patfanken's musing thread. We all know Brady is coming back from a major injury and are accepting of the fact that it takes time to get back to "game speed/shape". Maroney is also coming back from a major season ending injury. Why aren't the we just as accepting for him?

 

[Patriot 37]

Re: Felger: Start Ben Jarvis Green Ellis

Originally Posted by Patriot 37
The Moroney has more speed and talent than Morris (or BJGE) but his running style causes a lot negative plays, were Morris's doesn't.

That's not actually true. Did a carry-by-carry breakdown on Maroney's 2007, and it didn't reflect this at all. Maroney's career success rate also indicates otherwise. I was pretty surprised to learn that too, since my impression from watching him had always been similar to yours.

Maybe in 2007, but not in 2009. Mike Riess just blogged that Moroney had 7 plays for negative yards in 27 attempts. Morris, Faulk and Taylor had 5 combined in 74 attempts.

 

[holyredeemer]

That's not what anyone's saying, either. After all, Maroney's had a great deal of success running behind this exact same line in the past. Clearly there is a shared issue between the line and Maroney, and whatever it is needs to get worked out so that we can really unleash our running game. Maroney is capable of running, and our line is capable of run blocking, so its' reasonable to expect that they'll get untracked. It's not reasonable to freak out because Maroney had a bad game against one of the best run defenses of all time.

If you were referring to me, im not freaking out. If you're not, then I apologize. I also don't think that is what anyone is saying, and in this thread I have been speaking of Maroney's career, not one game, and the fact that people who always lash out at those who are disappointed in Maroney isn't fair.

I understand that no one is saying what I posted above, I was just merely poking fun at the reasons people give excuses for Maroney. It's always the O-Lines fault, the Blocking Schemes, the Offensive playcalling (sometimes it is one of those things) but, I just don't think people are being honest with themselves if they honestly think all of the above problems are the reasons for Maroney's performance problems. Maroney needs to just learn to take what the defense will give him.

Simple answer, simple football.

 

[RayClay]

That totally makes sense- you would never judge a player based on only one game, that would just be ridiculous. No, you judge players based on two games.

Yeah, you know i didn't say that, that's why you didn't quote me. I said the best game I recall, I happened to check his short yardage runs.

That's OK, I know you're just being argumentitive.

I judge by what my eyeballs see. I didn't need to wait for stats to see that Biesel shied from contact, or Eugene Robinson had become gun shy. It was on the screen.

Maroney had a broken shoulder. Pretty big reason to avoid contact there. How long did he? Does he still? If so, that's a pretty big factor.

If not, and he's having a lot of trouble running inside, hesitating, then his career as an NFL running back is in danger. Any back has to run inside sometimes. If defenses know you're afraid, you're cooked. Has nothing to do with any one or ten games.