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Expensive vs. "middle-class" players

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Fencer, Mar 14, 2012.

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  1. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    The Patriots famously leave room on their roster for a variety of players who aren't all that expensive, but aren't minimum-contract guys anyway. Some fans criticize this, wanting more "impact players".

    Well, the list of "impact players" acquired last off-season starts, in some order, with:

    Carter (Pro Bowler, sackmeister)
    Waters (Pro Bowler)
    Anderson (sackmeister)

    What was that again about the Pats needing to pay up more for impact players??
  2. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Rookie

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    Yes, but you are ignoring the fan base section that wants to give the 30th best defensive player in football the most money in NFL history by outbidding another team dumb enough to do that.
  3. Jangles

    Jangles PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't forget the impact of the amazing Ocho, and the other sackmeister, Ellis.
  4. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And neither cost the Pats as much as Albert Haynesworth cost the Redskins or Adam Archuletta cost the Redskins or Javon Walker cost the Raiders or Jerry Porter cost the Jags or Jermia Trotter cost the Redskins or Antwaan Randal-El cost the Redskins (seeing a Redskin trend here?) or Duante Robinson cost the Falcons etc.

    The good thing about lower free agents means that they come with less risk. The reward may not be as great, but the success rate isn't that far off.

    If you are a fan of your football team making a big splash in free agency, become a Redskin fan. Be warned, their season ends in late April around draft time because Snyder trades away all of his picks and that is when the Free Agency Lombardi is handed out.
  5. Reckedtrek

    Reckedtrek Rookie

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    The Pats (as will any team) will hit on some, and miss on others. It's gamble, and it comes down to the team willing to take that risk. They took the risk with Adalius Thomas, to many fans' delight (including mine at the time). He started okay, but fizzled, and certainly wasn't worth what they paid him. Assuming Fanene is as good as advertised, from what I see online, he looks like a good addition.

    BB seems to build with good football players (usually not stars) that are consistent in their ability and effort. Especially ones who will take to being coached up. The antithesis of The Redskins, among others.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  6. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you thought Ellis was a sackmeister then your understanding of the game is skewing your ability to make an informed opinion.
  7. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How many great "impact" players were picked up on the cheap for 2010?
  8. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    How many teams matched or beat the Pats' FA influx over the past 2 years combined?

    1 year, 2 years, 5 years -- overall, the strategy has worked, even if both recent Super Bowl appearances did turn out to be losses.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  9. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    the way most of these teams are spending these days, middle-class players are becoming pretty expensive. Would rather draft talent and pay to keep them in house than break the bank for a Mario Williams.
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, sorry... you don't get to pull that nonsense when you're trying to make the argument for going after the cheap stuff instead of the good stuff.

    How many "impact" players were brought (via the method you're pimping) in for 2010? How about 2008 and 2009? Hell, let's toss in 2007 to make it a full 5 year span.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  11. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    Sorry, not playing your rhetorical games.

    However, I concede, resign, and withdraw from any "biggest prick" competition with you.
  12. Deus Irae

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    You wrote the O.P.. It's your thread. You've made the claim. Now back it up. Please list the "impact" veteran free agents that have been brought in over the course of the last 5 years, using the method you're pimping.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  13. BB4PRez

    BB4PRez Rookie

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    I agree with the premise of the thread

    How many high price free agents have become high impact game changers with the new team ?

    I give Green Bay credit that the hit it out of the park way back when with Reggie White. I thnk Peppers has been a hit with Chicago (bit of a trend with superstar d linemen). Obviosusly qb is another position wher a superstar is worth the big bucks. I am sure there are many I am missing - but there have been a lot of misses

    Carter, Anderson, Waters - solid hits

    Ocho, Haynesworth - misses but not bank breakers

    To me the risk of injury is to great in football in most instances to go for the high priced free agent in a salary cap league
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Belichick has always paid more attention to the middle class quality depth players than other teams, but I wouldn't want to take that too far and say that's the key to his success.

    Other teams like the Colts have often put all their salary cap eggs in just a few baskets and when injuries hit, we've seen that come back to haunt them.

    Guys like Waters last year weren't part of a master plan - that was part luck and necessity and it worked out well for the Patriots, and it usually isn't that difficult to find cap space for a guy like that. Other backups that need to start due to injury often demonstrate that they can fill key roles for the Patriots pretty well - again that shouldn't be a surprise because Belichick likes to round out the team with "his kind of players"

    But the truth is, in the NFL today, having an elite QB covers up a lot of inadequacies on both offense and defense, and as much as I do credit Belichick for his football genius, he got lucky with Brady in the 6th round, and that counts for a heckuva lot of this team's success. And of course Brady's salary is FAR from middle class.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  15. The Scrizz

    The Scrizz Rookie

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    Um, Wes Welker (RFA granted and you can argue that it was a trade but that was just Mr. Kraft being nice to the league with all of the poison pill contracts going around) but probably the best value in football over the last 5 years.

    Who was the biggest FA of that time period? Everybody here, including me, was ecstatic. And ADT turned out to be a tremendous bust.

    And yet somehow this team that only brings in crappy FA's instead of 'impact' players, constantly trades back for more picks instead of drafting 'impact' players, and is cheap (despite constantly being at the top in real money paid out) has not finished with fewer than 10 wins since 2002, including 11-5 without Tom Brady. They've been in 5 out of 11 Super Bowls.

    What more exactly, do you want? There are 31 other teams that draft football players and play games and try to win and the Pats have done it better than every one of them for over a decade and still people aren't happy because they don't do it the way you want them to.
  16. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    5 years -- then we get to add Welker. (And yes, I understand Kraft ordered BB to turn that deal into a trade -- but he still was a FA acquisition for all practical purposes.)

    That's without playing semantic games around Moss (trade), Gaffney (how much impact would he have had w/o the Moss trade?), and so on.
  17. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    Neither would I. It's one key of many.
  18. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Welker was a trade. Gaffney was in 2006. So, in 5 years, it's 3 "Impact" players, and all 3 of them were in the same year. That's really nothing to write home about, given the number of misses that were also involved.

    The reality is that there is no one right way to do it, and that spending money on the high end free agents might, or might not, have been more successful for the Patriots over the course of the past 5 seasons. We'll never know which would have worked out better, but your dismissal of the high end free agent approach is clearly not supported by the recent success rate of your preferred system.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  19. Joey007

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    I'm a guy that believes in winning the Super Bowl (building your team) in the draft, give it help in FA. So while I don't have a problem with signing a big name FA guy, teams usually win SB's with biggest pieces from the draft, and smaller pieces from vet FA's. As a good example when we signed a mid-class guy Corey Dillon; turned out he helped us win our 3rd Super Bowl.
  20. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    As in other threads, I've said that it's not necessarily about spending big money, but this point is flat out stupid.

    Last year was an anomaly.

    Look at the difference between cheaping out on WRs in 2006, then going on a spending spree in 2007.

    As for 2003 and 2004, the pats did plenty of spending then, too.....dillon, Harrison,Colvin, not to mention laying out plenty of big contracts to keep their defensive players (vrable, mcginest, law, Seymour)

    Cheap FAs fizzle more often than succeed.
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