Expensive vs. "middle-class" players

[Sfpat]

How many Super Bowls have the Bears won since signing Peppers? According to part of this thread they should be winning them all since they signed "impact" FAs (sic).

 

[Blizzzard]

If you thought Ellis was a sackmeister then your understanding of the game is skewing your ability to make an informed opinion.

What's that beeping sound?.....

oh that's right.... It's time to change the batteries in you're sarcasm detector

 

[IllegalContact]

How many Super Bowls have the Bears won since signing Peppers? According to part of this thread they should be winning them all since they signed "impact" FAs (sic).

Just as many as the pats since Brady has been paid top money......what's your point?

 

[Fencer]

Welker was a trade.

That technicality does not speak against my point.

Since you're pretending otherwise, you're unworthy of being taken seriously at this time.

In fact, I said nothing about FAs, and would even be entitled to count the first year of Moss, if I recall correctly that his contract wasn't all that large then.

 

[Fencer]

Next, somebody's going to claim that you never can build out a strong team via free agency in basketball, because Lebron James and Chris Bosh were acquired via trades.

 

[Dragda]

You always hear that teams want to build through the draft. You know why? It's the risk you take in FA. It's way riskier and more expensive to take a player in FA. I like the Patriots model to limit the risk. They won't die by their rules, but they don't try to fill holes with a player that might not fit the locker room or scheme or is often another teams headache they are more than happy to get rid of. See Mike Wallace's low RFA tender.

 

[Dragda]

I agree with the premise of the thread

How many high price free agents have become high impact game changers with the new team ?

I give Green Bay credit that the hit it out of the park way back when with Reggie White. I thnk Peppers has been a hit with Chicago (bit of a trend with superstar d linemen). Obviosusly qb is another position wher a superstar is worth the big bucks. I am sure there are many I am missing - but there have been a lot of misses

Carter, Anderson, Waters - solid hits

Ocho, Haynesworth - misses but not bank breakers

To me the risk of injury is to great in football in most instances to go for the high priced free agent in a salary cap league

Drew Brees for the Saints was a huge pick up as I've ever seen

 

[EJ Blitz]

You always hear that teams want to build through the draft. You know why? It's the risk you take in FA. It's way riskier and more expensive to take a player in FA. I like the Patriots model to limit the risk. They won't die by their rules, but they don't try to fill holes with a player that might not fit the locker room or scheme or is often another teams headache they are more than happy to get rid of. See Mike Wallace's low RFA tender.

This would all make more sense if the Pats actually had more consistent successful drafts, then that 'build through the draft' talk would hold a lot more weight. What I see, is the Patriots drafting a lot of 'guys', then they either don't start or get cut, at the same rate, they don't big up the big name free agents. In the end, you have a lot of undesired free agent guys that get penciled in and do a commendable job, so they end staying. I'm not really seeing any building through the draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

That technicality does not speak against my point.

Since you're pretending otherwise, you're unworthy of being taken seriously at this time.

In fact, I said nothing about FAs, and would even be entitled to count the first year of Moss, if I recall correctly that his contract wasn't all that large then.

Given that this is about free agency at this time, you can keep massaging your argument all you want but it'll continue to be obvious that you're doing it. Your argument was a poor one from the beginning, and it was clearly something you hadn't bothered to actually look into before posting.

 

[Fencer]

Given that this is about free agency at this time, you can keep massaging your argument all you want but it'll continue to be obvious that you're doing it. Your argument was a poor one from the beginning, and it was clearly something you hadn't bothered to actually look into before posting.

It's about free agency and close substitutes. Your pretense that Welker should not be an example is beyond laughable; I can think of no way to spin it that does not reflect very poorly upon you as a person.

(The Moss case is more arguable, as his trade was timed around the draft.)

I'm trying to think of big, expensive FA recruitments that have worked out well for other teams, and there are indeed a few -- but only a few. Brees? Absolutely. Peppers? Probably, and a couple of other DL as well. Some receivers? Hard to say, because receivers' paydays are going up to fast it's hard to say what was big in the past. OL? Hutchinson, and I think there are one or two more I'm forgetting. Asante in Philly? Very arguable. 1 per season on average? Probably. 2 per season? I doubt it.

If you're rely on big, expensive FA recruitments to get you over the top, you're gambling on a longshot.

Or to put it another way, how many top-end FAs since Reggie White have been central to a Lombardi Trophy? I make it Brees, Woodson, and .... uh, who else?

 

[supafly]

I have no problem trying to improve via free agency, if the contract and player are both right. As a matter of fact, I am a firm believer that R.Marshall would have made an excellent addition, and maybe even R.Wayne/Llyod too--for the next 2 yrs or so. And I am using 'realistic' options at positions that need depth and competition, not players like fantastical options such as V.Jax or Mario Williams.

BUT...were either one (Marshall or Wayne/Llyod) necessary? No. At least Belichick doesn't seem to think so at this point in time. And to be honest, the more I think about it, I don't either. There's a ton of ways to solve a problem sometimes, not just the ONE way that the fans and media thinks.

We may need a tweak here, and a tweak there, but adding players for larger or even middle-tiered contracts have not usually been a staple of this team. They always look to the draft, UDFA's, cut players, and practice squad signings; hell, they re-built an entire team on both sides of the ball (OL, RB, TE, LB, CB) in the past 2-3 yrs in this exact way + and there's still the option of trades which we saw with both the likes of Moss and Welker.

I think the pattern proves that they know who they want, and if that player is there they tend to go after him. Of course, the money has to be right too, b/c we're dealing with a roster full of Brady, Welker (I believe his situation is a bit more important one way or another, and that may be holding some things up too), Mayo, Wilfork, Mankins, etc. We have Chung coming up, Spikes, Vollmer...then Gronk and Hernandez. These are lots of players that are going to be taking up a big chunk of money. It's certainly more than possible that BB likes what he sees in the rebuilding phase, and he wants to keep most or all of these players here.

I believe there will be an improvement of stretching the field, and making more plays outside the numbers next yr; but it very well may not be the manner that we want or thought it'd be. The same goes for the secondary.

The draft will add some important pieces, and those players will be cheap and here for awhile.

Any other positions (WR, S, and DL) that need immediate attn after the draft and some low level FA signings, we will have to make due with. That's probably just the way it is. I don't believe that BB is either cheap or stupid, so all sides of the equation should be looked at.

The team still has to try and figure out what to do with BJGE, Connelly, Ihedigbo, Branch etc too---not to mention Welker, so I'm thinking that they are plenty busy trying to keep the good and properly built team from the last 2 yrs together (that went 14-2 and 13-3), while also attempting to patch up some quick fixes.

Let the other fanbases bask in the March glory of FA, we tend to bask in things come December--like winning the division, improving seeding and HFA, and winning conference championships and SB's.

 

[IllegalContact]

You always hear that teams want to build through the draft. You know why? It's the risk you take in FA. It's way riskier and more expensive to take a player in FA. I like the Patriots model to limit the risk. They won't die by their rules, but they don't try to fill holes with a player that might not fit the locker room or scheme or is often another teams headache they are more than happy to get rid of. See Mike Wallace's low RFA tender.

LOL.......vereen, dowling, Cunningham, brace, butler, Wheatley..... The pats should have avoided the risk and given those draft picks away

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

LOL.......vereen, dowling, Cunningham, brace, butler, Wheatley..... The pats should have avoided the risk and given those draft picks away

+1

Also, just wanted to add that Terrell Thomas, taken by the Giants right after Wheatley, has 11 career picks despite missing all of last year while Wheatley played 11 career games for the Pats.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's about free agency and close substitutes. Your pretense that Welker should not be an example is beyond laughable; I can think of no way to spin it that does not reflect very poorly upon you as a person.

(The Moss case is more arguable, as his trade was timed around the draft.)

Again, I'm not spinning. You're the one trying to do that. Welker was a trade, not a free agent signing. Even crediting him in your list, however, it would still be 3 years out of 5 without any impact choices, despite the high number of these 'bargain' free agents that the Patriots sign.

I'm trying to think of big, expensive FA recruitments that have worked out well for other teams, and there are indeed a few -- but only a few. Brees? Absolutely. Peppers? Probably, and a couple of other DL as well. Some receivers? Hard to say, because receivers' paydays are going up to fast it's hard to say what was big in the past. OL? Hutchinson, and I think there are one or two more I'm forgetting. Asante in Philly? Very arguable. 1 per season on average? Probably. 2 per season? I doubt it.

If you're rely on big, expensive FA recruitments to get you over the top, you're gambling on a longshot.

Or to put it another way, how many top-end FAs since Reggie White have been central to a Lombardi Trophy? I make it Brees, Woodson, and .... uh, who else?

There have been may big time free agents who've worked out, actually, and the fact that you only go "probably" for Peppers should be enough to tell you that you're being ridiculous in holding your position. And one easy example that you ignored is Primetime.

 

[Fencer]

Welker was a trade, not a free agent signing.

What in my original post even faintly suggests that that's a relevant distinction??????

(Hint: Nothing.)

You owe me an apology, but of course I will not hold my breath for it.

 

[Fencer]

it would still be 3 years out of 5 without any impact choices,

Three Pro Bowlers in 5 years. How much more in the way of impact players do you think the Pats should have picked up in the FA market, where "impact" is a sufficiently strict criterion so as to exclude Anderson, Ninkovich, et al.?

(Yes, Welker came from the FA market, even if the receipt for his purchase wasn't written up in exactly the usual FA style.)

 

[DaBruinz]

Other free agent signings that have been an "impact".

Rob Ninkovich
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Dan Connolly
Ryan Wendell
Kyle Arrington
Sammy Morris
Tully Banta-Cain
Gerard Warren

Now, none of these players are "PRO-BOWLERS" but anyone who thinks that this team would have been as good as it was without the likes of Kyle Arrington or Rob Ninkovich is smoking some cheap stuff.

 

[patfanken]

LOL.......vereen, dowling, Cunningham, brace, butler, Wheatley..... The pats should have avoided the risk and given those draft picks away

Another asinine post by someone who tries desperately to prove to everyone that he could do a better job running the Patriots than Bill Bellichick. Anyone who dismisses players like Vereen, Dowling, Cunningham, and even Brace, all of whom have been injured is an idiot. (and I say that in the most respectful manner.)

By those same perimeters, IL would have dismissed the the likes of Rivers, Rodgers, Brees, Manning (both of them), and that's just the QBs. He also would have sh!tcanned Connor Barwin, Wes Welker, Mike Vrabel, James Harrison or any of the hundreds of very good to great NFL players in the league who had the temerity NOT to enter the league and make an immediate impact, or were injured and recovered.

Just STOP it, IL, you can do so much better.

 

[patfanken]

This would all make more sense if the Pats actually had more consistent successful drafts, then that 'build through the draft' talk would hold a lot more weight. What I see, is the Patriots drafting a lot of 'guys', then they either don't start or get cut, at the same rate, they don't big up the big name free agents. In the end, you have a lot of undesired free agent guys that get penciled in and do a commendable job, so they end staying. I'm not really seeing any building through the draft.

This is one of the most idiotic post this board has even seen. There is NO way that you have watched the Pats for any length of time the last 12 years and could make that statement. Past ridiculous. I'm embarrassed I even commented on it.

 

[IllegalContact]

LOL.....the pattern has been simple and clear.......if they don't start out contributing for the pats, you can count on them to not contribute down the road.

in case you don't have a clue about QB's they take alot more time than any other position. as for Barwin, he had a solid rookie season....he sure as hell did alot more than brace (who by the way is mostly a healthy scratch, but if you're still holding out hope for him, then you're the idiot)

LMFAO at your anger

Another asinine post by someone who tries desperately to prove to everyone that he could do a better job running the Patriots than Bill Bellichick. Anyone who dismisses players like Vereen, Dowling, Cunningham, and even Brace, all of whom have been injured is an idiot. (and I say that in the most respectful manner.)

By those same perimeters, IL would have dismissed the the likes of Rivers, Rodgers, Brees, Manning (both of them), and that's just the QBs. He also would have sh!tcanned Connor Barwin, Wes Welker, Mike Vrabel, James Harrison or any of the hundreds of very good to great NFL players in the league who had the temerity NOT to enter the league and make an immediate impact, or were injured and recovered.

Just STOP it, IL, you can do so much better.