Expensive vs. "middle-class" players

[IllegalContact]

This is one of the most idiotic post this board has even seen. There is NO way that you have watched the Pats for any length of time the last 12 years and could make that statement. Past ridiculous. I'm embarrassed I even commented on it.

but you do a fantastic job of 'out-idioting' anyone

 

[Fencer]

LOL.....the pattern has been simple and clear.......if they don't start out contributing for the pats, you can count on them to not contribute down the road.

in case you don't have a clue about QB's they take alot more time than any other position. as for Barwin, he had a solid rookie season....he sure as hell did alot more than brace (who by the way is mostly a healthy scratch, but if you're still holding out hope for him, then you're the idiot)

LMFAO at your anger

Guys who didn't develop instantly, and also aren't QBs (very partial list):

• David Givens
• Kyle Arrington
• Stephen Neal
• Asante Samuel
• Ben Watson
• Kyle Love

I'm already bored.

 

[IllegalContact]

Guys who didn't develop instantly, and also aren't QBs (very partial list):

• David Givens
• Kyle Arrington
• Stephen Neal
• Asante Samuel
• Ben Watson
• Kyle Love

I'm already bored.

several of them contributed as rookies.......but don't worry, you'll wake up eventually

 

[Fencer]

several of them contributed as rookies

Not to anything remotely resembling their subsequent extent (if I'm recalling correctly that Watson's injury year was his first one).

 

[IllegalContact]

Not to anything remotely resembling their subsequent extent (if I'm recalling correctly that Watson's injury year was his first one).

yes....but unlike brace, and butler, and wheatley, when they got their opportunity, they produced.......these guys fell flat on their face....then someone like cunningham who got enough time to have the team completely change the scheme in the offseason pretty much because of him.

 

[BlueThunder]

I seem to recall that Bruschi struggled for a couple of years. Glad he got a chance to prove himself.

If a guy is constantly injured, he can't help the team and I can't see carrying him for long. I usually give a guy 3 years to prove he belongs, after that he's toast in my eyes. Writing a player off before that, unless he really stinks, is premature.

JMHO :singing:

 

[Dragda]

LOL.......vereen, dowling, Cunningham, brace, butler, Wheatley..... The pats should have avoided the risk and given those draft picks away

I'm not saying the Patriots haven't made some bad selections. Every team misses on picks. Look at the teams that build almost exclusively through FA. How much success have they had? The Patriots model works because all those players you list above and all the other ones that you didn't bother to mention were jettisoned without taking a piece of the franchise with them. You hit multiple players on one draft and you are suddenly a playoff contender no matter how bad you were the year before. Try doing that in FA. You can't. You have to have that successful draft. We are lucky the Patriots pretty much stick to their philosophy and field a consistently winning team.

 

[Dragda]

+1

Also, just wanted to add that Terrell Thomas, taken by the Giants right after Wheatley, has 11 career picks despite missing all of last year while Wheatley played 11 career games for the Pats.

You can't compare other players selected after our failed selections as anything other than showing your ignorance of how to build a roster in the NFL. Every NFL insider will tell you right away you never look back and second guess a draft with hindsight.

 

[IllegalContact]

You can't compare other players selected after our failed selections as anything other than showing your ignorance of how to build a roster in the NFL. Every NFL insider will tell you right away you never look back and second guess a draft with hindsight.

nut there is foresight........I wanted barwin and got brace....I wanted brooks reed and got dowling

 

[ATippett56]

There remain a number of New England Patriots unrestricted free agents yet to be signed:

Dan Koppen
Dan Connolly
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Deion Branch
Andre Carter
Mark Anderson (potentially, depending on the market)
James Ihedigbo (I hope not)

I would consider the aforementioned list more "middle-class" than "expensive".

 

[IllegalContact]

There remain a number of New England Patriots unrestricted free agents yet to be signed:

Dan Koppen
Dan Connolly
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Deion Branch
Andre Carter
Mark Anderson (potentially, depending on the market)
James Ihedigbo (I hope not)

I would consider the aforementioned list more "middle-class" than "expensive".

I agree, but keeping your own is different than getting someone new. I think the gist is players from other teams

 

[ATippett56]

nut there is foresight........I wanted barwin and got brace....I wanted brooks reed and got dowling

Name the players in the 2012 NFL Draft for the New England Patriots to select in order to improve the defense:

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Be realistic based upon the current player rankings.

 

[BB4PRez]

Other free agent signings that have been an "impact".

Rob Ninkovich
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Dan Connolly
Ryan Wendell
Kyle Arrington
Sammy Morris
Tully Banta-Cain
Gerard Warren

Now, none of these players are "PRO-BOWLERS" but anyone who thinks that this team would have been as good as it was without the likes of Kyle Arrington or Rob Ninkovich is smoking some cheap stuff.

I agree there has been plenty of value in the middle class players -

Mike Vrabel,
Rodney Harrison
Roman Phifer

They haven't always been correct, but the stategy is sound they just have to execute it better to get over the final hump and return to championship form

 

[IllegalContact]

Name the players in the 2012 NFL Draft for the New England Patriots to select in order to improve the defense:

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Be realistic based upon the current player rankings.

based on exactly who is available at 27,31,48,63,94,127 I would go with SS Mark Barron, DE/OLB Andre Branch, DE Jared Crick, FS George Iloka, DE/DT Kheeston Randle, and WR Devon Wylie

If we go by something like walter football where team needs are considered (for example, konz will be gone well into the 1st round while CBS has him listed at 44)

2012 NFL Mock Draft - WalterFootball.com

I would go with DT kendall reyes (I would take brockers if he was ther, but I don't believe he will be once he has some private workouts), SS mark barron, OLB shea mcclellin, DT jerel worthy (though I think this mock is older than his pro -day and he will go much higher), FS George Iloka, and then either OLB/DE Donte Paige-Moss or DE Jared Crick

We need bodies on defense....lots of them........I like Wylie as a WR, but brady doesn't need rookies running around out there at this point. I would address the OL with the guys we have except maybe grab an OC to replace Koppen, but get Waters to come back and lean on Cannon some more since he appears to be the real deal.

in general, the guys I would most like to have but will never be here are:

OLB shea mcclellin
DE Fletcher Cox
DE Jared Crick

but to me, this year's version of connor barwin or brooks reed is shea mcclellin

 

[MoLewisrocks]

As in other threads, I've said that it's not necessarily about spending big money, but this point is flat out stupid.

Last year was an anomaly.

Look at the difference between cheaping out on WRs in 2006, then going on a spending spree in 2007.

As for 2003 and 2004, the pats did plenty of spending then, too.....dillon, Harrison,Colvin, not to mention laying out plenty of big contracts to keep their defensive players (vrable, mcginest, law, Seymour)

Cheap FAs fizzle more often than succeed.

We made it one game farther in 2007 than we did in 2006.

Dillon came here on the cheap. The mistake they made with him was extending him after the fact. Harrison came here on the cheap and never got a raise thereafter except that one year when they gave him back the money they restructured away from him the year before due to injury... Colvin missed an entire season and was never quite the same player or worth his deal which is why he was eventually cut. Vrabel came here for relative peanuts and never broke the bank thereafter and still ended up cut before his second deal ended. McGinest was restructured and on real give backs more times than Manning on a pre BB deal and eventually cut as a result. Law got to hang around for most of his pre BB deal because he performed, but when his cap hits outstripped his value and he wouldn't restructure he was a gonner even absent the injury. All the injury did was preclude a trade. Seymour was on his rookie deal for all three rings. They didn't extend themselves to retain him until 2005-2006, and they lived to regret it even though all they gave him was a 3 year extension at age 26...so they flipped him while they could before he saw the last year of even that deal.

 

[IllegalContact]

and the pats haven't won a thing since brady started getting the big bucks either....so your point regarding seymour is irrelevant and I'm not sure why you bothered with it.

Fact is, the pats would likely have a 4th superbowl (one more than they actually have) if the team did not outsmart itself when dealing with deion branch.

vrabel got big money for the position and the time back in 2005

We made it one game farther in 2007 than we did in 2006.

Dillon came here on the cheap. The mistake they made with him was extending him after the fact. Harrison came here on the cheap and never got a raise thereafter except that one year when they gave him back the money they restructured away from him the year before due to injury... Colvin missed an entire season and was never quite the same player or worth his deal which is why he was eventually cut. Vrabel came here for relative peanuts and never broke the bank thereafter and still ended up cut before his second deal ended. McGinest was restructured and on real give backs more times than Manning on a pre BB deal and eventually cut as a result. Law got to hang around for most of his pre BB deal because he performed, but when his cap hits outstripped his value and he wouldn't restructure he was a gonner even absent the injury. All the injury did was preclude a trade. Seymour was on his rookie deal for all three rings. They didn't extend themselves to retain him until 2005-2006, and they lived to regret it even though all they gave him was a 3 year extension at age 26...so they flipped him while they could before he saw the last year of even that deal.

 

[Deus Irae]

The "money" issue with free agents is as overblown as the "trade down" issue with draft picks. Going the lower end with free agents and trading down both work, unless they don't. The same is true with going with high end free agents and drafting high.

Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. Going the cheaper/trade down routes didn't work from 2007-2009 (2010 for the cheaper FA route), and that hurt the team, as the results on the field in 2009 and 2010 showed. Trading down worked well in 2010 ( maybe not so much in 2011), and going for lower level FAs worked well in 2011, and the result was a return to the SB in 2011. Now, regardless of how BB plays it this offseason (unless he gets really stupid), the Patriots are poised to repeat as AFC champions and to return to the Super Bowl.

Would a big money FA have helped? Probably.
Is that time past? Yes.
Is the failure to land a big money FA early in the FA season likely to be the difference between success and failure? No.

 

[PatsGirl2011]

If anyone thinks there is not a talent issue on defense, they must not have watched the first game-the SB. There is a talent issue more so than a execution. Standing Pat and hoping finding a "middle class" player and hoping they overachieve is not always the solution.

 

[IllegalContact]

If anyone thinks there is not a talent issue on defense, they must not have watched the first game-the SB. There is a talent issue more so than a execution. Standing Pat and hoping finding a "middle class" player and hoping they overachieve is not always the solution.

the mistake the 'cheap' people assume is that it is how SB's were won. It isn't. there were plenty of high priced defenders on the team from 2001-2004, much more so than now. the only reason the pats did not sign high price people back then is because they already had them with mcginest, law, milloy.

the pats have been low cost in the secondary and it caught up with them in 2006, 2007, and 2011.

it's like 'look ma!! no OLB's and no secondary!!!'

 

[patfanken]

the mistake the 'cheap' people assume is that it is how SB's were won. It isn't. there were plenty of high priced defenders on the team from 2001-2004, much more so than now. the only reason the pats did not sign high price people back then is because they already had them with mcginest, law, milloy.

the pats have been low cost in the secondary and it caught up with them in 2006, 2007, and 2011.

it's like 'look ma!! no OLB's and no secondary!!!'

a gross oversimplification, IC. How did that high cost secondary work out for the Eagles?

And as for the lack of spending being the reason for not winning superbowls, that's ridiculous. Did the Giants spend big for their 2 wins. Did the Packer or the Saiints. I don't remember either of those teams going nuts in FA before their superbowl wins. Please name a team in the last decade who rode the coattails of big FA spending who has won a superbowl.

The Bottom Line is the only difference in the Pats 3 wins and their 2 losses in the superbowl, is in the 3 wins the Pats were a good team that caught enough breaks and won. In the 2 losses the Pats were a good team that didn't catch enough breaks. Its really as simple as that.

The margin of victory in the NFL now is RAZOR thin, something as simple as getting one of the 3 fumbles, Manningham's foot being 3 inches further to right, Brady taking 2 steps to his left on the Safety, Gronk being healthy, Any of these and more could have changed the result of that game, without a single extra dollar being spent. The same goes for the 2007 game. Its not about the money