Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense...

[slash83]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

Body slamming quarterbacks is against the rules.

But whats he supposed to do when the guys trying to get out of his grasp, lay him down gently? Its human nature to try harder to bring somebody when they are trying to free themselves. Im basing this off of what Adalius himself said btw..

 

[mgteich]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

It's either against the rules or it's not. The issue is not whether it is hard to avoid.

But whats he supposed to do when the guys trying to get out of his grasp, lay him down gently? Its human nature to try harder to bring somebody when they are trying to free themselves. Im basing this off of what Adalius himself said btw..

 

[mb6592]

Ok, let's make it clear for everyone.

Did this defense have a good evening?
Are they remotely close to what is needed later in the year?
As of now, do you consider them a top 10 defense?

My answers to all of these questions is no.

That's the way I SAW it also. The same crew who insist that we were a top 10 defense last year will say otherwise. Observing good/great defense is like observing indecency - you know it when you see it - so please spare the stats that can be justifiably rebutted (i.e. the T.O.P. argument). Until they prove otherwise, this defense will be a concern (and has been for the last couple of years). Also, where's the justification for being so optimistic given the subtractions of Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour and now Mayo? Mayo going down is especially brutal in light of the Seymour trade.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

You said their OL 'stoned' our DL and tried to prove it by quoting Ty Warren saying it was a close game (where he made absolutley no such comment about the DL being stoned) and then expanded it to Brady, the radio, internet etc. Where none of them discuss the Bills OL 'stoning' the Pats DL.

I never claimed that Ty Warren used the word 'stoned', as you well know if you actually read my posts. I do find it amusing that you think my using a term as a part of an evaluation, and then never changing that evaluation even as I point out others who had similar takes on the game to be 'moving the goalposts'.

You moved the goalposts by claiming that their OL 'stoned' our DL and when I objected responding with quotes or references that do not say that, and acting as if thats what was supposed to be proven.
The original 'goalpost' was proving that the DL got 'stoned'.
In searching for proof, you changed the goalposts to 'find a source that says the Patriots had any flaws inthe way they played".

Again, I moved no goalpost. Again, you apparently don't know what the phrase means. I never offered to 'prove' the DL got stoned. I opined that the OL stoned the DL more often than it should have.

Perhaps you don't understand the term you coined on this board, because whenever Ive seen you accuse someone else of it you were the one changing the topic.

It's not my fault if you either don't know the meaning or can't apply it properly.

In any event, I don't care to debate whether you feel your whining is justified, I prefer to have positive slants on wins and negative slants on losses.

Then please feel free to stop posting responses to posts I make. I wasn't whining, I was breaking down the game. The thread was about "Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense", after all. The players and coach seemed to be able to handle the talk of poor defense, and to talk about it rationally.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

But whats he supposed to do when the guys trying to get out of his grasp, lay him down gently? Its human nature to try harder to bring somebody when they are trying to free themselves. Im basing this off of what Adalius himself said btw..

I'm sure some murderer has tried the "human nature" defense before. Judge won't buy it. There's a rule regarding roughing the qb and that was roughing the qb.

Wilfork got screwed ironically because of hypersensitivity to the new emphasis caused by Brady. That one was a terrible call.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

I never claimed that Ty Warren used the word 'stoned', as you well know if you actually read my posts. I do find it amusing that you think my using a term as a part of an evaluation, and then never changing that evaluation even as I point out others who had similar takes on the game to be 'moving the goalposts'.



Again, I moved no goalpost. Again, you apparently don't know what the phrase means. I never offered to 'prove' the DL got stoned. I opined that the OL stoned the DL more often than it should have.



It's not my fault if you either don't know the meaning or can't apply it properly.



Then please feel free to stop posting responses to posts I make. I wasn't whining, I was breaking down the game. The thread was about "Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense", after all. The players and coach seemed to be able to handle the talk of poor defense, and to talk about it rationally.

A) You make a statement
B) I disagree
C) You respond with references that do not support that statement
How hard is that to understand.
For some reason when I disagree that 17 rushes for 65 yards and good pass rush numbers is inconsistent with the exaggeration that their rookie OL beat our DL, you turned that into thinking that the argument was me saying the Patriots were perfect, and you finding 'evidence' by listing comments saying they were less than perfect. Warrens quote had absolutely nothing to do with that issue.
If I make a statement and you write a response that has nothing to do with that statement its the epitome of moving the goalposts.
You seem so fascinated in putting an overall negative slant on the game that you fail to even respond to the specific point. The fact that you bring 'homerism' into is even further indication you are off the mark. I was discussing the poor evaluation that our DL was handled well by their OL, and your moving of goalposts was to turn that into ignoring that point and trying to prove that you are the only sane person in the world, because the Patriots didn't play perfectly.
Every discussion isn't about the meaning of life, some are about one part of it.

 

[Ring 6]

As far as the defense goes, they were very lucky to have the Time of Possession on their side.

Even though Brady had difficulty completing drives he kept the Bills off the field for 37 minutes plus.

The Bills scored 24 points - on the surface I'd take that most games expecting that Brady and the offense can put up more... but that was over just 23 minutes.

If a team has the ball for 30, 35, close to 40 minutes that's going to be an L in the column.

Aside from that I wasn't expecting much from the Defense giving all the new moving parts - and I got what I expected... though there were quite a few good signs that they can turn into a very good Defense later in the season.

We need them to peak in the playoffs - not now.

Half of the time of possession equation is the defense.
On 6 of the Bills 8 drives they gained 1 or fewer first downs. The defense wasnt 'lucky' to have top advantage, they contributed to it by getting off the field.

 

[Metaphors]

Half of the time of possession equation is the defense.
On 6 of the Bills 8 drives they gained 1 or fewer first downs. The defense wasnt 'lucky' to have top advantage, they contributed to it by getting off the field.

Just adding to your points:

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
1 01:19 BUF40 03 03 00 BUF38 Punt
2 03:17 BUF32 06 69 04 *NE11 Touchdown
3 02:47 BUF27 05 17 01 BUF44 Punt
4 02:44 BUF20 05 22 01 BUF37 Punt
5 02:09 BUF21 04 27 02 BUF48 Punt
6 03:25 BUF36 07 42 01 NE22 Field Goal
7 06:11 BUF38 14 57 06 *NE10 Touchdown
8 00:50 BUF21 05 35 02 BUF 30 End of Game

Drive 1 and 8 were great, which is nice since you certainly want to start and end the game strong.

Drives 3 and 4 resulted in a single 1st down, keeping the Bills in favorable down/distance (3rd and 5, 3rd and 10), reasonable pressure and nice coverage on 3rd down. Not perfect, but not too much to complain about.

Drive 5 was OK but had the potential to be a great series. Bills had 1st and 20 at their 11 when Wilfork pressure forced an incompletion. So 2nd and 20 backed up near their goal line...exactly the type of situation where Edwards self-destructs. Bogus flag on Wilfork (near universal agreement on that) and the Bills get bailed out. A screen play gets them some good yardage but Pats stop them on 3rd and 3 with good pressure. Outside of the screen pass and killer penalty, this was a fine effort by the defense.

So the only real complaints would be on the other 3 drives. Let's look at each:

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
2 03:17 BUF32 06 69 04 *NE11 Touchdown

-Missed FG gave the Bills reasonable starting position
-Good pressure on Edwards, but able to escape for 16 yds
-Nice counter run with excellent block by TE Nelson gains another 16 yds
-Screen pass right after Mayo injury gains 21 yds
-Same look as counter run above, but this time Nelson slips out for a TD catch

The counter run was just good blocking and execution by the Bills. ILBs got trapped inside and Nelson sealed off the OLB opening a nice hole. Mayo gets injured on that play and Pats don't respond well after. This drive was solid execution by Bills and unfortunate injury for Pats. QB pressure not an issue for this series.

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
6 03:25 BUF36 07 42 01 NE22 Field Goal

- Missed 4th down conversion gives Bills good starting position.
- Edwards converts 3rd and 1 with nice rollout and short pass to a wide open Owens
- Tackle for loss by Meriweather
- Sack by TBC
- Bills get good yards on 3rd and forever on short TE pass, but settle for FG

Nice play call on 3rd and short to finally get Owens involved, but Pats should have had better coverage responsibilities. Would have also liked a more aggressive play call to keep the Bills in long FG range, but the defense held. QB pressure not an issue for this series.

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
7 06:11 BUF38 14 57 06 *NE10 Touchdown

- Bills get good field position on kickoff fumble and recovery
- Convert 3rd and 15 on a screen pass
- Convert 2nd and 8 on a draw
- Convert 3rd and 3 on an off-tackle run
- Convert 3rd and 8 on a QB scramble after good pressure
- TD on a screen pass

Absolute disaster of a series for the Pats. I don't agree with the AD roughing call but it was far more reasonable than the earlier Wilfork one. Lots of missed opportunities to get off the field, but this drive had good QB pressure (including the AD sack). Just didn't defend the screen or come up big on some key rushes.

So can anyone tell where they see a systematic problem with the defense? Absolutely had a serious problem with screen passes, but all after the Mayo injury. Not an excuse, but hard to adjust when losing your key defender on these type of plays. There was some good execution by the Bills and the Pats D coming up small in the next to last drive, but I don't see how that is an indictment of the players or scheme.

And anyone complaining about lack of pressure being an issue in this game needs to give me an example. Just didn't see that live or in retrospect.

This doesn't mean I believe the Pats D is perfect or even where it needs to be, particularly with the Mayo injury. But there is a huge gray area between perfect and disaster. Based on the Bills game, the Pats D is squarely in the "solid but needs work" territory. Sorry if I chose to save my panic for H1N1 or my teenage daughter learning to drive.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

It's either against the rules or it's not. The issue is not whether it is hard to avoid.

I LOVe Boston sports fans.

If Mayo listens to that rule, and tries to throw Edwards down like a girl and he got away we'd be allllllll up in the man's **** for it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not a doubt in my mind we'd either be calling him stupid today for doing it, or soft.

I don't think the elague is all that wrong not wanting guys to be slammed. But the stupid ass useless piece of crap refs need to blow their freaking whistles. Two years ago on a similar play, Mathis Kiawnuka on the Giants had Vince Young stopped. He LIGHTLY wrapped him, trying in no way to get a roughing call.

the result? Being a great atlete, Young runs froms his grasp, goes on to score and everyone is left with their arms up at Kiwanuka. again, it's on the refs. They themselves need to do a better job. Don't wanna see the QB slammed? Than blow your ******* whistle. This is getting so freaking ridiculous games are being decided by these morons. They're paid to do a job, so do it the right way.

We ***** about it every year, but the refs really are more to blame. Not for making the call exactly, but for not blowing the whistle at the right time. Thanks, rant over

 

[cstjohn17]

Just adding to your points:

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
1 01:19 BUF40 03 03 00 BUF38 Punt
2 03:17 BUF32 06 69 04 *NE11 Touchdown
3 02:47 BUF27 05 17 01 BUF44 Punt
4 02:44 BUF20 05 22 01 BUF37 Punt
5 02:09 BUF21 04 27 02 BUF48 Punt
6 03:25 BUF36 07 42 01 NE22 Field Goal
7 06:11 BUF38 14 57 06 *NE10 Touchdown
8 00:50 BUF21 05 35 02 BUF 30 End of Game

Drive 1 and 8 were great, which is nice since you certainly want to start and end the game strong.

Drives 3 and 4 resulted in a single 1st down, keeping the Bills in favorable down/distance (3rd and 5, 3rd and 10), reasonable pressure and nice coverage on 3rd down. Not perfect, but not too much to complain about.

Drive 5 was OK but had the potential to be a great series. Bills had 1st and 20 at their 11 when Wilfork pressure forced an incompletion. So 2nd and 20 backed up near their goal line...exactly the type of situation where Edwards self-destructs. Bogus flag on Wilfork (near universal agreement on that) and the Bills get bailed out. A screen play gets them some good yardage but Pats stop them on 3rd and 3 with good pressure. Outside of the screen pass and killer penalty, this was a fine effort by the defense.

So the only real complaints would be on the other 3 drives. Let's look at each:

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
2 03:17 BUF32 06 69 04 *NE11 Touchdown

-Missed FG gave the Bills reasonable starting position
-Good pressure on Edwards, but able to escape for 16 yds
-Nice counter run with excellent block by TE Nelson gains another 16 yds
-Screen pass right after Mayo injury gains 21 yds
-Same look as counter run above, but this time Nelson slips out for a TD catch

The counter run was just good blocking and execution by the Bills. ILBs got trapped inside and Nelson sealed off the OLB opening a nice hole. Mayo gets injured on that play and Pats don't respond well after. This drive was solid execution by Bills and unfortunate injury for Pats. QB pressure not an issue for this series.

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
6 03:25 BUF36 07 42 01 NE22 Field Goal

- Missed 4th down conversion gives Bills good starting position.
- Edwards converts 3rd and 1 with nice rollout and short pass to a wide open Owens
- Tackle for loss by Meriweather
- Sack by TBC
- Bills get good yards on 3rd and forever on short TE pass, but settle for FG

Nice play call on 3rd and short to finally get Owens involved, but Pats should have had better coverage responsibilities. Would have also liked a more aggressive play call to keep the Bills in long FG range, but the defense held. QB pressure not an issue for this series.

--TOP--STRT--PL-YD-1ST-END--RESULT
7 06:11 BUF38 14 57 06 *NE10 Touchdown

- Bills get good field position on kickoff fumble and recovery
- Convert 3rd and 15 on a screen pass
- Convert 2nd and 8 on a draw
- Convert 3rd and 3 on an off-tackle run
- Convert 3rd and 8 on a QB scramble after good pressure
- TD on a screen pass

Absolute disaster of a series for the Pats. I don't agree with the AD roughing call but it was far more reasonable than the earlier Wilfork one. Lots of missed opportunities to get off the field, but this drive had good QB pressure (including the AD sack). Just didn't defend the screen or come up big on some key rushes.

So can anyone tell where they see a systematic problem with the defense? Absolutely had a serious problem with screen passes, but all after the Mayo injury. Not an excuse, but hard to adjust when losing your key defender on these type of plays. There was some good execution by the Bills and the Pats D coming up small in the next to last drive, but I don't see how that is an indictment of the players or scheme.

And anyone complaining about lack of pressure being an issue in this game needs to give me an example. Just didn't see that live or in retrospect.

This doesn't mean I believe the Pats D is perfect or even where it needs to be, particularly with the Mayo injury. But there is a huge gray area between perfect and disaster. Based on the Bills game, the Pats D is squarely in the "solid but needs work" territory. Sorry if I chose to save my panic for H1N1 or my teenage daughter learning to drive.

Rather than reading through this all.
1) Can you summarize your thoughts based on what you saw during the game please? (30 words or less)
3) Do you think this going to be a good defense? (20 words or less)

I will go first.

1) They played ok, some good some bad. Was not thrilled that the rookie O Line was not exposed, not sure how they will stack up against better offenses.
2) No, they will just be ok. It is a band of JAGs, they should end up being around league average or slightly better (20.5 PPG).

 

[Marqui]

Does anyone know if Pryor is cleared for the Jets game?
Id like to see what he can do

 

[mayoclinic]

Does anyone know if Pryor is cleared for the Jets game?
Id like to see what he can do

I would too. It's too early to tell. He was listed as questionable before the Bills game, but was reportedly improving. I'm hoping he makes the 45 man squad.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Everyone's thoughts on ONLY the defense.....

A) You make a statement
B) I disagree
C) You respond with references that do not support that statement
How hard is that to understand.
For some reason when I disagree that 17 rushes for 65 yards and good pass rush numbers is inconsistent with the exaggeration that their rookie OL beat our DL, you turned that into thinking that the argument was me saying the Patriots were perfect, and you finding 'evidence' by listing comments saying they were less than perfect. Warrens quote had absolutely nothing to do with that issue.
If I make a statement and you write a response that has nothing to do with that statement its the epitome of moving the goalposts.
You seem so fascinated in putting an overall negative slant on the game that you fail to even respond to the specific point. The fact that you bring 'homerism' into is even further indication you are off the mark. I was discussing the poor evaluation that our DL was handled well by their OL, and your moving of goalposts was to turn that into ignoring that point and trying to prove that you are the only sane person in the world, because the Patriots didn't play perfectly.
Every discussion isn't about the meaning of life, some are about one part of it.

You do like to change the facts, I see.

 

[Metaphors]

Rather than reading through this all.
1) Can you summarize your thoughts based on what you saw during the game please? (30 words or less)
3) Do you think this going to be a good defense? (20 words or less)

I will go first.

1) They played ok, some good some bad. Was not thrilled that the rookie O Line was not exposed, not sure how they will stack up against better offenses.
2) No, they will just be ok. It is a band of JAGs, they should end up being around league average or slightly better (20.5 PPG).

1) Defense executed the gameplan given to them. Struggles on offense allowed Bills to stay conservative. Rough adjustment to losing Mayo, particularly on screen/draws/scrambles.

2) Absolutely. 17 ppg. Mayo returns, Chung/Butler make impact. All depends on staying healthy. Complements offense and ST.

 

[captain stone]

That's the way I SAW it also. The same crew who insist that we were a top 10 defense last year will say otherwise. Observing good/great defense is like observing indecency - you know it when you see it - so please spare the stats that can be justifiably rebutted (i.e. the T.O.P. argument). Until they prove otherwise, this defense will be a concern (and has been for the last couple of years). Also, where's the justification for being so optimistic given the subtractions of Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour and now Mayo? Mayo going down is especially brutal in light of the Seymour trade.

Splunge for me, too.

And as RayClay previously mentioned, the Bills stopped themselves - through untimely penalities & dropped passes - as often as our defense stopped them.

Losing Seymour is one matter; at least there's some quality depth at DL.
Losing Mayo is another matter entirely; ILB is our least deep position.

Will our defense get better as the season gets longer? Probably; but the defense which will be playing the Jest this Sunday - without Seymour & Mayo - will not be winning games for us, anytime soon. It's all on the offense, for now.

 

[Synovia]

Losing Mayo is another matter entirely; ILB is our least deep position.

Yes, and no. Guyton will be fine at MLB. The problem is, moving Guyton inside leaves a one dimensional player on the outside.

 

[patfanken]

After reading the last nine pages, I can only say that a lot of this is ego centric bickering. NO ONE is saying that the Pats defense played its best game of the season. NO ONE is saying that its a dominant Defense. On the other hand, NO ONE is saying that, as fans, we should be satisfied with the effort. I think on those lines we should ALL agree.

....However I have one point to add. I'm disturbed by those who feel that somehow the Bills are a JV team in the NFL, and everyone should either shut them out, or score 40 points. I will remind people that this is a team that was 5-1 before their QB got hurt. It is a team that has TWO 1000 yd impact WRs, and until Joey Galloway shows he can get involved in the offense, Its the BILLS who have the best 3 man WR trio in the Division.

As to the OL, I remind people again that the Pats WON the superbowl with 2 OTs who hadn't played an NFL game prior to the 2001 season. 2 of those guys where highly regarded picks and the 3rd is a guy who played well enough to allow the Bills to get rid of their starting RT just before the start of the season.

Before all the changes just prior to the season, many of us thought the Bills were a decent team, and one to be wary of. I think we all got caught up in the hype in those late changes. Clearly it could be for the better.

BOTTOM LINE- The Pats beat an NFL football team...which is RARELY an easy chore. Just ask the Steelers, Chargers, Ravens, Giants, all the OTHER favorites and media darlings who struggled in their openers

 

[AzPatsFan]

I will make the following observation: Everyone's concern in the off season was the Patriot's lack of a pass rush.

Were it not for two refs calls against two sacks recorded by Wilfork and AD, the Patriots Defense records 6, six, one more than 5, and one less than 7, SIX sacks in their opening game.

What missing pass rush??

 

[AzPatsFan]

Half of the time of possession equation is the defense.
On 6 of the Bills 8 drives they gained 1 or fewer first downs. The defense wasn't 'lucky' to have top advantage, they contributed to it by getting off the field.

One of the Bills scoring drives would have likely ended with the Vince Wilfork sack. It either would have resulted in a Safety outright, and getting the ball, or it would have been 3rd and 31, at the one yard line. Likely the Bills don't covert and have to give up the ball...

AD's sack on the Bills drive did not result in a score as the Pats D eventually held; but the Pats would have received the subsequent punt in a better field position. The Pats then marched a long way, only to not score on that change of possession. Perhaps a shorter drive might have resulted in a score...

 

[cstjohn17]

1) Defense executed the gameplan given to them. Struggles on offense allowed Bills to stay conservative. Rough adjustment to losing Mayo, particularly on screen/draws/scrambles.

2) Absolutely. 17 ppg. Mayo returns, Chung/Butler make impact. All depends on staying healthy. Complements offense and ST.

Ok, now I get it, thank you.