Dustin Keller Visiting Patriots 4/30

[patchick]

The Pats havent won sheet trading down for so called "value."

Maroney, Brace, Cunningham, Wheatlee among other draft busts.

Triumph, I'm afraid your memory is leading you astray on this. NONE of the draft busts you list were acquired after a trade down. Maroney, Cunnhingham and Wheatley were all chosen at the Pats original draft slots, and they traded UP for Brace! The same holds, by chance, for almost all of their biggest draft misfires: Butler, Crable, etc.

Some notable recent players acquired via "value" trades down or into the future include Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Aaron Hernandez, Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Alfonzo Dennard, Julian Edelman, and most of Chandler Jones.

 

[Deus Irae]

Triumph, I'm afraid your memory is leading you astray on this. NONE of the draft busts you list were acquired after a trade down. Maroney, Cunnhingham and Wheatley were all chosen at the Pats original draft slots, and they traded UP for Brace! The same holds, by chance, for almost all of their biggest draft misfires: Butler, Crable, etc.

Some notable recent players acquired via "value" trades down or into the future include Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Aaron Hernandez, Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Alfonzo Dennard, Julian Edelman, and most of Chandler Jones.

Chandler Jones was the product of a trade up.

 

[patchick]

Chandler Jones was the product of a trade up.

That's exactly why I said "most of." Jones was chosen with a 1st-round pick acquired via a 2011 trade down & ahead, plus a modest move up a couple of slots.

EDIT: Which reminds me, Shane Vereen was also a product of that same trade down. I'm still mystified that the Saints had such a blind crush on Mark Ingram.

 

[Galeb]

Triumph, I'm afraid your memory is leading you astray on this. NONE of the draft busts you list were acquired after a trade down. Maroney, Cunnhingham and Wheatley were all chosen at the Pats original draft slots, and they traded UP for Brace! The same holds, by chance, for almost all of their biggest draft misfires: Butler, Crable, etc.

Some notable recent players acquired via "value" trades down or into the future include Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Aaron Hernandez, Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Alfonzo Dennard, Julian Edelman, and most of Chandler Jones.

Great points. I would also contend the point that the Pats haven't won "sheet" since "trading down for so called value". Since then, not only have they won more regular season games and division titles than any other franchise, they've won two AFC championships and achieved the first, and currently only, 16-0 regular season record in NFL history.

 

[dales804]

Great points. I would also contend the point that the Pats haven't won "sheet" since "trading down for so called value". Since then, not only have they won more regular season games and division titles than any other franchise, they've won two AFC championships and achieved the first, and currently only, 16-0 regular season record in NFL history.

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

 

[Galeb]

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

A superbowl is the ultimate goal, but it generally take a convergence of a talent, good health and luck. Since two of those are out of a team's control, you must focus on the one that you can control.... putting together a good team that is always in the hunt.

 

[patchick]

A superbowl is the ultimate goal, but it generally take a convergence of a talent, good health and luck. Since two of those are out of a team's control, you must focus on the one that you can control.... putting together a good team that is always in the hunt.

Absolutely. In an individual game, anything can happen; they came within whiskers and helmets of winning two Superbowls. To suggest that those losses point to a failed draft strategy seems an odd stretch.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Mods, could we at least change the date on the title of the thread?

 

[Joker]

February for me too...I was born on half a leap year, which makes me about 30...

• 

 

[Triumph]

Triumph, I'm afraid your memory is leading you astray on this. NONE of the draft busts you list were acquired after a trade down. Maroney, Cunnhingham and Wheatley were all chosen at the Pats original draft slots, and they traded UP for Brace! The same holds, by chance, for almost all of their biggest draft misfires: Butler, Crable, etc.

Some notable recent players acquired via "value" trades down or into the future include Jerod Mayo, Devin McCourty, Aaron Hernandez, Jamie Collins, Logan Ryan, Alfonzo Dennard, Julian Edelman, and most of Chandler Jones.

The point is that shooting for value isnt bringing any Lombardis home.

The Pats have traded down plenty and have little to show for it. Theyve traded picks into next season and that hasnt exactly worked out either. The time is now to trade up for the missing piece that will help the Pats win another championship while Brady and BB are still here.

 

[Triumph]

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

Im with you Dale.

When Brady is gone get ready for a drought.

 

[Triumph]

Great points. I would also contend the point that the Pats haven't won "sheet" since "trading down for so called value". Since then, not only have they won more regular season games and division titles than any other franchise, they've won two AFC championships and achieved the first, and currently only, 16-0 regular season record in NFL history.

Thats all wonderful.

Id rather have a 5 - 11 season then make it to the Super Bowl and go home in 2nd place.

 

[ausbacker]

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

I don't agree with this mentality @dales804 mainly because trading it all away isn't a guarantee of a Super Bowl victory. If at the beginning of the season you told me the Patriots would have Jerod Mayo, Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Rob Gronkowski and Sebastian Vollmer on Injured Reserve and they would still make the AFC Championship game, I would have told you to put the crack pipe down.

The Patriots were a few plays away from having no Super Bowls and a few plays away from having 5 under Belichick. That doesn't even take into account the fait accompli SB against the Bears that was taken away from the Pats by the officials. That's the margin of error they're working with.

 

[supafly]

A superbowl is the ultimate goal, but it generally take a convergence of a talent, good health and luck. Since two of those are out of a team's control, you must focus on the one that you can control.... putting together a good team that is always in the hunt.

I think this is an excellent thought. I don't see "failure" on a season where we make it to the conference championship. It's unfortunate to lose, especially 2 years in a row, but you can't argue with the way the teams have been built or overall philosophy. The SB losses were just flat out bad luck in my opinion. It happens.

Now...that doesn't mean that there were moves made that I highly disagreed with, but I'm talking about general philosophy. I just can't agree with Triumph in the case that I'd "much rather have a 5-11 season, than go to the SB and go home in 2nd place." I'd much rather be watching competitive football at the end of the season when the high majority of teams and fanbases aren't participating and have no interest.

That said, I sure as hell hope that if we make it back we can close it out and get the job done. Losing 3 in a row would suck for sure.

 

[Ivan]

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

The price you pay for greatness and championships is heartbreaking losses, you don't go from nothing to champion, back to nothing, to champion and on and on, you build a team that competes consistently with the best to win it all and if you are good enough long enough you pull your share of rings out of it. The patriot have 3 but really could have 6 if things had broken their way. They have built a team that ignores the NFL's infrastructure for rendering great teams into bad ones and manages to stay on top despite a system that makes it almost impossible to do so. Belichick and Brady can take them a good ways on their own but it take smuch more to win it all and sometimes those deficits show up when it matters most, however when all is said and done there is not a fanbase in pro sports that has had it better than patriots fans have for the last 20 years. I will take the big losses because it means they played big games, without those you don't accomplish anything.

 

[Triumph]

The warts on the Pats would be much bigger if not for Tom Brady. Winning seasons make you believe the team is better than it actually is and close to getting back to greatness until reality pays you visit in the post season. Last seasons team would not have beaten the Seahawks. Anybody that believes they would is smoking crack. The 49ers would also b slap this Pats team.

Brady makes a bad OL look good. He makes underwhelming WRs actually look like keepers. He makes Josh McDaniels look like Charlie Weis some games. When the defense cant hold a lead, Brady can go back out and score more points so that you win the game.

Stop Brady and you stop the Pats cold. Every post season loss the offense has struggled mightily. The defense couldnt stop a nose bleed.

The Lombardi Patriots were never like that. They never used injuries as excuses. They were balanced in all 3 phases of football: offense, defense and special teams. The games were close because thats how the Pats were designed. At no point in the Super Bowl losses was I confident the Pats would prevail.

 

[1960Pats]

Thats all wonderful.

Id rather have a 5 - 11 season then make it to the Super Bowl and go home in 2nd place.

You really think that 2nd place is worse than 27th?

By that logic you'd rather lose in a blowout like the Broncos did than in close games like the Pats have twice.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

We came within a minute of having the greatest run in the history of the game. Nothing will ever duplicate the feeling that we had being so close. I'd do it all again.

 

[supafly]

Stop Brady and you stop the Pats cold. Every post season loss the offense has struggled mightily. The defense couldnt stop a nose bleed.

The Lombardi Patriots were never like that. They never used injuries as excuses. They were balanced in all 3 phases of football: offense, defense and special teams. The games were close because thats how the Pats were designed. At no point in the Super Bowl losses was I confident the Pats would prevail.

I agree that TFB is obviously the straw that stirs the drink, as you point out.

You say that you never thought that we'd win in either one of the 2 recent losses, yet we were ahead in both with about 2-3 minutes remaining. I think it was reasonable to think that we probably should have won at least one of those two games.

You've got to factor in some bad luck with the good that we've had, as all 5 games have been within a FG or so (4 points in the SB46 loss). Not much room for error on either side of things.

I think the biggest difference above anything is the talent and play of the defense, which was much better in the 2001 to 2004 stretch.

 

[RayClay]

And I'd trade it all for a SB title. There's no question the team is great but they need to become a championship team again to satisfy the appetite of many fans. I love having a team contend every year and I know the SB is so difficult to win but it's been agonizing seeing the same issues rear their ugly head at the most important times these past years.

You have a distorted perspective. You can't trade all the gold in Fort Knox for a Super Bowl, the Redskins try it often. All you can do by panicking to gamble everything on one year is guarantee some years you have no playoffs because you have big contract, no money, no draft picks and you didn't win the panic gamble.

Your once in a lifetime year has injuries, bad chemistry and bad bounces like any other and all star teams don't win in football anyway, it's team work, which takes time.

If any team was loaded, it was the 2013 Patriots, with Gronk, Wilfork, Mayo and Vollmer. We went far on team work and didn't mortgage our future, so we competed then and have a great team this year.

 

[mgteich]

Thats all wonderful.

Id rather have a 5 - 11 season then make it to the Super Bowl and go home in 2nd place.

Many think as you do. The ownership of Washington does, and that of some other teams. The ownership and coaching staff of the patriots do not have this view.