Disingenuous BS

[PromisedLand]

"explosive Seattle offense"

?!?!?!

edit: I don't think Deion said anything too incendiary in that article. The sad part is that he feels like if there had been better and more straightforward communication early in the process he'd have a contract and (I think) be wearing another ring. No matter how you look at it, someone, anyone, is going to have to step up big for a multi-year period to replace him.

Maybe Deion didn't say anything too incendiary, but the Herald enraged me in the very first paragraph:

A year ago, the wide receiver was preparing to hold out for a long-term contract from the Patriots [team stats]. He was traded instead to the Seahawks, and the fallout continued reverberating this winter, when the Patriots signed a slew of wideouts in what amounted to a tacit acknowledgement they never should have let Branch leave.

Huh? A tacit acknowledgment that Branch is better than Welker, Stallworth and Moss put together? How's that again?

 

[Pats726]

That's an interesting point. I had forgotten the Mason romance and assumed that we were just trying to replace David Givens who was "doomed" to be well overpaid by someone....and he was. However you could look at it as a veiled threat to Deion....or perhaps DEION/agent looked at it as a veiled threat..

It might have been a veiled threat...OR if they had already tried to negotiate with Deion in that month more of a reaction to what they saw as a stalemate with him OR maybe it was a true evaluation of talent that they thought that Mason was more a number one receiver than Branch. Remember, Branch was out a lot that year..missed almost half that year with that freak knee injury. The team may have not seen him as durable.

Bottom line I have always believed that for some reason unknown to us, Deion DID NOT want to play in NE anymore. He instigated the actions that led to the impass. From there I think the Pats fumbled the ball giving him an opportunity to make a deal on his own, then recovered their own fumble in getting a first round pick. But anyway you look at it, Deion was the instigator, and his stubbornness led to what happened.

I agree he did not wish to be with the team anymore; his actions made that crystal clear. I think he realized that after the Denver playoff game; the tears?? He knew it was his last game with NE. He certainly instigated a lot but I am not sure where how the Pats fumbled. I think they felt cornered, ran out of options and took a chance with something out of the box. The one mistake I think they made was NOT going after a wideout before the trade so they had a PLAN B...I do not think they did because they believed they'd sign Deion to a contract and somehow were blinded by his greediness and truly believed he'd be reasonable even AFTER a period of extreme unreasonableness from him. In the end, you are correct they recovered, got that first round pick and moved on. And yes Deion was incredibly stubborn, unreasonable and the reason he is not around.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Fair enough, I see your point(s). I had thought the contract offer included his demand about the final year of his rookie deal, but I'm probably wrong about that.

I also don't necessarily see that what happened with Deion isn't actually the WORST precedent to have set. Here you have a situation where a guy can look at his holdout and say, 'hey, I can get out of this last year and go get a big paycheck elsewhere if I really want it.' If they had taken the tack of re-working his deal the way he had wanted, I don't necessarily see that it changes much about that precedent, except that a guy could think that he would still be with the Pats after doing so since Deion was still around. In that situation, we'd probably lose that player, but then you're probably talking about a guy who has less value to the team (in my opinion) than Deion. The best case scenario, in retrospect, would have been to say, "okay, hold out." He would have had to be back by 10 games in (and realistically would probably have buckled down and played), and then they could potentially have signed him to the deal he wanted this year, depending on his postseason performance.

I'll never deny that he was an a*s about how he went about things, but I would rather have him here than Moss. I definitely hope I get proved wrong, though!

You make a good point. Other players can see what happened to Deion and say "if I want my money a year early I should force my way out." NE bungled things in letting him negotiate with other teams. Assumably they wouldn't do that again and force the guy to actually hold out.

 

[Oswlek]

Maybe Deion didn't say anything too incendiary, but the Herald enraged me in the very first paragraph:


Huh? A tacit acknowledgment that Branch is better than Welker, Stallworth and Moss put together? How's that again?

Agreed. It was a "tacit acknowledgement" that a Jabar/Caldwell/Brown/Childress/Jackson WR crew wasn't good enough to win the SB. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just because you start going out with a new girl doesn't mean that you made a mistake in letting the previous one go.

 

[spacecrime]

I'd still rather have the known quantity, all things considered.

So after considering all the things about Welker and Troy Brown, you would rather have Troy Brown in the slot than Wes Welker? Bledsoe over Brady, Keith Traylor over Vince Wilfork?

No, when you consider ALL things, there is more to it than what is known. You must pick the player who is likeliest to be better THIS COMING SEASON, not last season.

Deion Branch was good, but let's not turn him into some kind of superstar. We won two SBs with him, and lost two playoff games with him. We won 9 in a row when he was out. Deion was good, but we need to stop glorifying players because they are not longer with us. He was part of a winning team, not the reason we won.

 

[Grizzafted]

It wasn't a blanket statement, I'm referring specifically to the Branch vs. Moss/Stallworth argument. You're citing completely separate examples.

We lost one playoff game with Branch, not two.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree that THAT MVP trophy was the worst thing that happened to him....and totally correct in what Brady did after winning two and how Harrison would have handled it if he got the MVP.
A question though comes to mind with the Patriot negotiations with him AFTER that day. I wonder if they realized after that trophy was given that an extension was going to be difficult if near impossible?? I wonder because a month after that trophy was awarded, the Pats made a big offer for Mason. Did they dio that because they knew negotiations with Branch would be hard OR did they think that Mason was a more durable BETTER receiver than Branch?? If it was the latter, do you think that angered Branch more and made him less flexible in his position?? I am curious about how this influenced his thinking. I found it interesting that after they have an MVP WR that they were ready to throw money at another one.

Honestly, I believe that the Pats made the offer for that reason. Also, to take some leverage away from Branch and Givens in negotiations and to possibly help ensure that if they did leave, that the Pats would have continuity.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I believe these three things are true:

1) That Deion played the game in such a way that he got traded to Seattle.
2) That Deion would have preferred not to get traded anywhere.
3) That yes, he has a lot of love for teammates, and even in a warped way the Pats organization, at least as they handled the game on the field.

At the end of the day, you occasionally see veterans whose heads are not in the clouds, who tell their agents what deal to cut not vice versa, who understand that what will make them happiest might not be the largest number available with the most guaranteed.

I support the right of a player to try to hit that free agency jackpot. I understand the point of their rights, even if it is not to "feed their family". It is to get $2M more, or one more year knocked off a rookie deal. It is to garner excessive wealth.

Some of them can see past that, and push their agents to do likewise. Most go the "no, no, one more year at lower money means I have less money" route. Deion regrets not winning that negotiation, and sure you can say that these are crocodile tears, because he could have just gotten in line.

I just think it's a damn shame to feel as he says he does, regarding being traded. I remember the time period just after the trade, and being surprised at how sincerely he seemed to wish it had worked out in NE.

Maybe he just wants to look like the good guy. It's water under the bridge now, unless he's angling to come back, hat in hand, as an older vet once he's made his pile...

You know what I say? If he wants to do that and he can help the team, welcome back buddy, hope you didn't get a 'Hawks tattoo.

But for now, sorry dude, you'll be on the outside looking in on a few more ring ceremonies.

PFnV

 

[spacecrime]

We lost one playoff game with Branch, not two.

Brain cramp. It's hell to get old.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Out of idle curiosity, did the article have a by-line or was it mystery meat? (I try to avoid clicking on anything that will credit Felger with a read.)

 

[PatsSteve1]

I read the story and really didn't have a problem with it. Maybe I'm just not that sensitive.

 

[Seven Nation Army]

Why all the hand-wringing on this thread? "Was it Deion?" "Or was it us?"

1. Belichick and Pioli like their recievers to be cheap, cheap, cheap. The Patriots budget has far more allocated to defensive linemen and quarterback than to wideouts. Everyone seems to think the New England brain trust weeps for the absence of Deion Branch, but I doubt it. In point of fact, I think Belioli chuckles at the thought, because they straight up robbed Seattle. Just like they robbed Oakland (Moss), Buffalo (Bledsoe), New Orleans (Tebucky Jones), etc. See the next point.

2. Seattle gave us a first-round pick for Deion Branch. Not only did we save cap money, we actually got a first-round selection for him. Players we've selected in that round include Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Ben Watson, and Laurence Maroney. Any scenario that weighs the gains and losses in the Branch situation needs to include that fact. Just because we didn't use it in 2007 doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is tucked away in the future, waiting to become an elite athlete.

3. Deion Branch would not have made the difference last year. I hate hearing speculation about how we would have gone 14-2 and won the Super Bowl with him on the team. The Patriots lost to the Colts because of weakness at the linebacker position. With Junior Seau and Adalius Thomas on the field there is no Indy comeback in last year's AFCCG.

4. Deion Branch is just not that great a reciever. Courtesty of the Cold Hard Football Facts:

Deion Branch, who held out and was traded from New England to Seattle for a first-round pick, had eight catches for 96 yards in Seattle’s two playoff games. Street free agent Jabar Gaffney, who joined the Patriots in October, has caught 18 passes for 207 yards in New England’s two playoff games.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1268

The Patriots went 10-6 last year with Branch and scored 23.7 PPG.
The Patriots went 12-4 this year without Branch and scored 24.1 PPG.
The Seahawks went 13-3 last year without Branch and scored 28.2 PPG.
The Seahawks went 9-7 this year with Branch and scored 20.9 PPG.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1244

 

[patfanken]

I believe these three things are true:

1) That Deion played the game in such a way that he got traded to Seattle.
2) That Deion would have preferred not to get traded anywhere.
3) That yes, he has a lot of love for teammates, and even in a warped way the Pats organization, at least as they handled the game on the field.

I'm trying very hard to get my head wrapped around WHY you would think these 3 things, especially #2. Branch INSTIGATED the conflict by NOT making a counter offer. He was willing to HURT the team with a selfish hold out, DESPITE the fact that ultimately the Pats made him a great offer. Not as good as Seattle's but over valued on it own. Are you aware of it? It was essentially the same as Seattle's except they weren't willing to tear up the last year of his contract. So Branch could have had the same deal a year later, and a ton of bonus money in 2006...but not as much as he got from Seattle.

I support the right of a player to try to hit that free agency jackpot. I understand the point of their rights, even if it is not to "feed their family". It is to get $2M more, or one more year knocked off a rookie deal. It is to garner excessive wealth.

That might be fine in Samuel's case because he ACTUALLY got to his FA year. Do you support the right of the player to walk away from a contract he and the team both signed in good faith. Because that is what Branch did in 2006. He was under contract the entire time during his conflict. That is far different than Samuel's situation.

I just think it's a damn shame to feel as he says he does, regarding being traded. I remember the time period just after the trade, and being surprised at how sincerely he seemed to wish it had worked out in NE.

That is pure BS. Deion NEVER wanted it to work out. He did everything in his power to make sure that it didn't. Branch is the kind of guy I hate the most. They guy who is smart and has good PR sense. He knows the right things to say, but upon closer investigation, he is talking through his teeth....and flat out lying. It irks me no end to hear him talk about how much he wanted it to work out. Maybe you buy it, buy its pure BS to me and any other discerning fan.

Maybe he just wants to look like the good guy. It's water under the bridge now, unless he's angling to come back, hat in hand, as an older vet once he's made his pile...

You know what I say? If he wants to do that and he can help the team, welcome back buddy, hope you didn't get a 'Hawks tattoo.

But for now, sorry dude, you'll be on the outside looking in on a few more ring ceremonies. PFnV

Believe me the Pats NOW understand what a POS this kid really is. They could be down to their last WR and MEION Branch is never getting a call from the Pats.

You are right one one thing though. He will never get another ring in Seattle. But what does he care. He got out of NE and has a boat load of money. Much more than he is warranted. IF he remains healthy, he'll have a decent year. He might even crack that 1000 yd mark, but not by much. He might even get 4 or 5 TD, but not the 10 that Moss will get. And he will NEVER make the pro bowl.

 

[Water Boy]

The same holds true about the Samuel negotiation. No where do they make notice of the VERY fair offer the Pats have already made Samuel. It was slightly larger than the so call "Dre Bly deal", and significantly larger than the Nathan Vasher deal, who has better creds than Samuel.

What was the offer? Where was it reported?

 

[patfanken]

What was the offer? Where was it reported?

Kurt, it was WIDELY reported that the Pats offered Branch a deal that gave him a big chunk of money in a signing bonus in 2006 (sorry But I don't remember but I would guess in the $6-10/yr) and when his deal started in 2007, he would average 6MM/yr.

I'm sure one of the more savy fans here could come up with exact links

 

[Pats726]

I'm trying very hard to get my head wrapped around WHY you would think these 3 things, especially #2. Branch INSTIGATED the conflict by NOT making a counter offer. He was willing to HURT the team with a selfish hold out, DESPITE the fact that ultimately the Pats made him a great offer. Not as good as Seattle's but over valued on it own. Are you aware of it? It was essentially the same as Seattle's except they weren't willing to tear up the last year of his contract. So Branch could have had the same deal a year later, and a ton of bonus money in 2006...but not as much as he got from Seattle.




That might be fine in Samuel's case because he ACTUALLY got to his FA year. Do you support the right of the player to walk away from a contract he and the team both signed in good faith. Because that is what Branch did in 2006. He was under contract the entire time during his conflict. That is far different than Samuel's situation.



That is pure BS. Deion NEVER wanted it to work out. He did everything in his power to make sure that it didn't. Branch is the kind of guy I hate the most. They guy who is smart and has good PR sense. He knows the right things to say, but upon closer investigation, he is talking through his teeth....and flat out lying. It irks me no end to hear him talk about how much he wanted it to work out. Maybe you buy it, buy its pure BS to me and any other discerning fan.



Believe me the Pats NOW understand what a POS this kid really is. They could be down to their last WR and MEION Branch is never getting a call from the Pats.

You are right one one thing though. He will never get another ring in Seattle. But what does he care. He got out of NE and has a boat load of money. Much more than he is warranted. IF he remains healthy, he'll have a decent year. He might even crack that 1000 yd mark, but not by much. He might even get 4 or 5 TD, but not the 10 that Moss will get. And he will NEVER make the pro bowl.

I agree totally here...he instigated it all and played to get the most money WHEN HE WANTED and never did anything to indicate he wished to stay here or concede anything.
Also, he WAS under contract which is a LOT different than the Vinatieri's and others who have left when they were FAs.
What did he do to ever work the deal out withe NE??? I won't hold my breath waiting because it would be a long time before there is an answer to that other than "nothing".
And I agree totally about him being the worst..a pure phony and there are a ton of suckers who will believe his BS. If he wanted to be here IT could have happened...but he did not.
I really do not thing the Pats would want him back...although with his boat load of green he may realize it's more than the money that is important, but of all teh Patriots who have left..he might be the one I would never care to see here again.

 

[Oswlek]

Deion Branch is just not that great a reciever. Courtesty of the Cold Hard Football Facts:

Deion Branch, who held out and was traded from New England to Seattle for a first-round pick, had eight catches for 96 yards in Seattle’s two playoff games. Street free agent Jabar Gaffney, who joined the Patriots in October, has caught 18 passes for 207 yards in New England’s two playoff games.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1268

The Patriots went 10-6 last year with Branch and scored 23.7 PPG.
The Patriots went 12-4 this year without Branch and scored 24.1 PPG.
The Seahawks went 13-3 last year without Branch and scored 28.2 PPG.
The Seahawks went 9-7 this year with Branch and scored 20.9 PPG.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1244

This is just as disingenous as anything The Herald said.

In 2005 NE had no healthy RBs and lost 3-5 of their OL for the majority of the season.

In 2006 Seattle lost Alexander and Hasselbeck for much of the season. In addition to that, Branch's acquisition was more than offset by a dramatic dropoff in OL play, even beyond Hutchinson's absence.

Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever once you dig a little deeper.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

"Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever once you dig a little deeper."

Ah, really? You probably didn't mean it, but your statement infers that Brady's rep as a winner and not necessarily as a big stat guy, that Brady finds a way to win regardless of the talent around him, that he can will his team to victory somehow, some way, are not an accurate measure of his worth and skill. Obviously, a QB can have a more direct impact on a game than a WR, but just throwing team records/stats while Branch was on the field out the window ignores the old 'intangibles' that a player brings to his team. Winning is the bottom line in the NFL and that's why Patriot fans appreciate players who do whatever it takes to win more than they do stat guys.

So, winning may not be the sole measure of a player's worth but saying, "Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever," is a more narrow minded statement than the ones you dispute.

 

[Oswlek]

"Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever once you dig a little deeper."

Ah, really? You probably didn't mean it, but your statement infers that Brady's rep as a winner and not necessarily as a big stat guy, that Brady finds a way to win regardless of the talent around him, that he can will his team to victory somehow, some way, are not an accurate measure of his worth and skill. Obviously, a QB can have a more direct impact on a game than a WR, but just throwing team records/stats while Branch was on the field out the window ignores the old 'intangibles' that a player brings to his team. Winning is the bottom line in the NFL and that's why Patriot fans appreciate players who do whatever it takes to win more than they do stat guys.

So, winning may not be the sole measure of a player's worth but saying, "Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever," is a more narrow minded statement than the ones you dispute.

You are expanding on a singular example and applying it to situations that I didn't mention at all.

What does Brady's rep as a winner have anything to do with my contention that there was a lot more going on with Seattle and NE from 2005-2006 than just Branch?

Maybe I should have said, Seattle's and NE's 2005/2006 records and stats aren't relevent to the Branch discussion due to all the other things happening.

 

[DaBruinz]

This is just as disingenous as anything The Herald said.

In 2005 NE had no healthy RBs and lost 3-5 of their OL for the majority of the season.

The Pats lost 2 OL. Light and Koppen. True about the RBs. However, that is the point. Branch isn't a player who can carry a team. He's a cog not a driver.

In 2006 Seattle lost Alexander and Hasselbeck for much of the season. In addition to that, Branch's acquisition was more than offset by a dramatic dropoff in OL play, even beyond Hutchinson's absence.

Records and scoring has no relevence whatsoever once you dig a little deeper.

You talk about being disingenuous and the don't provide the appropriate facts. Hasselbeck missed 4 games. That is not a majority of the season. Alexander missed 6 games. Still not a majority of the season. There were 3 games that both Alexander and Hasselbeck missed. Seattle went 2-1 in those games.