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Disingenuous BS

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Jun 26, 2007.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Once again the Herald is acting as player agent in any pay contraversy the Pats or any professional athlete has with his team. What suck ups. Here Meion Branch offers his musings on the the Samuel negotiations.

    http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...format=&page=1

    I just found it so phoney with all his talk about the love of his former teammates and the insinuation that he wasn't treated fairly by the Pats. He never mentions the VERY Generous offer (in fact too generous) the Pats DID make to him, or the fact he never bothered to counter the Pats original offer.

    Some how, just because the Pats refused to make Meion the 3rd highest paid WR in the league (at the time), they now can be viewed as under valuing their players.

    The same holds true about the Samuel negotiation. No where do they make notice of the VERY fair offer the Pats have already made Samuel. It was slightly larger than the so call "Dre Bly deal", and significantly larger than the Nathan Vasher deal, who has better creds than Samuel.

    JUST ONCE I'd like to hear a former player just say the truth. "Yeah the Pats made a nice offer, but the one I got from the Seahawks just blew me away. I wanted out of NE and did what I had to, to make it happen. It worked out well for me, and NE seems to have landed on its feet as well"

    Please note this post is less about the pros and cons of the Samuel negotiation and more about the DISINGENOUSNESS (I love that word) of the media in its biased reporting, and Branch who once again proves his actions and words have nothing in common.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  2. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Could not get the link to work...but I agree..WOuld like to hear Branchs words..his take and the BS he is peddling.
  3. T-ShirtDynasty

    T-ShirtDynasty Moderator

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  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Started to read it and then thought since when has Branch become a credible expert on negotiations... same old BS, try to create some controversy..
  5. Grizzafted

    Grizzafted Rookie

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    "explosive Seattle offense"

    ?!?!?!

    edit: I don't think Deion said anything too incendiary in that article. The sad part is that he feels like if there had been better and more straightforward communication early in the process he'd have a contract and (I think) be wearing another ring. No matter how you look at it, someone, anyone, is going to have to step up big for a multi-year period to replace him.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  6. Va_Pats_Fan

    Va_Pats_Fan Rookie

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    How do you know what Samuel was offered? Were you in the room @ the negotiations? Branch's negotiations?

    The same media you blast for doing this is the one that "supplied" those numbers. If they, as you claim, have an agenda, how can they be trusted to be accurate on one account, but not the other?

    Media gets paid to sell ads. Lower your expectations, and you won't be so disappointed :)

    http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1008299

    is a correct link to the article...
  7. Grizzafted

    Grizzafted Rookie

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    My question is, if the front office could go back and change things, you think they'd offer him a better contract?

    How about this. Which WR corps would you realistically rather have starting against the Jets this year:

    Option A

    Moss
    Stallworth
    Welker
    Caldwell
    Gaffney
    CJ/Brown/Washington

    OR, Option B. Let's say...

    Branch
    Caldwell
    Welker
    Gaffney
    Brown
    CJ/Washington

    My own personal opinion, for what it's worth is Option B.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  8. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    “I didn’t want to get traded,” he said. “That was never, ever what I wanted, but I wasn’t going to just bend over and fold and let someone run me over.”
    Didn't wish to get traded....I have to ask this question..what did you DO Deion so you would NOT be traded???
    Like failing to negotiate for 3-4 months with a counter offer??? Like demand a no franchise tag if you came to camp?? Like holding out and threatening to sit out to Game 10??
    If he REALLY did not wish to get traded he is as dumb as a rock...NONE of his actions and stances in anyway indicated that he wished to stay with the team in any way at all. Yes Deion you didn't want to give an inch on anything..you didn't wish to get run over...you showed what a lying phony you were..you basically pushed the Patriots into a corner and then you are surprised you are gone??? Either pretty dumb or totally disingenuous. The team was quite fair with you and you were not. Nice to say you didn't WANT to be traded but your actions fail to go along with that statement.
  9. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I couldn't get any of the links to open. The Herald has had problems with their site for days.

    Although I am commenting without reading the article, it was logical to expect that someone was going to get Deion's take on the Samuel situation. Everyone is comparing the two situations. I think plenty of writers were looking for the scoop on Deion's take on the situation. I think every local guy was looking for that story.

    Again, I am commenting without knowing the content of the piece or the angle the reporter used.
  10. p8ryts

    p8ryts Rookie

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    I thought it was a good read. It only purported to give Branch's perspective and it did that.

    At least the Herald had a topical story. It seems most sports writers only report material presented by club publicists.

    At this time of the year there is no news because writers have to figure out what to write about and do some work on their own.

    I still support the position the Patriots took with Branch and I will support whatever approach they take with Samuel.

    I don't pay any attention to negotiating postures by club or player/agent.

    I can't wait for some real football. I hope to get to TC this year, missed it the last couple, kind of hard to get there from VA.
  11. patsgo

    patsgo Rookie

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    moss and stalworth are much more dangeruos than branch and caldwell not even close
  12. sieglo

    sieglo Rookie

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    I would say given the way he and his agent raped the Seahawks, he is a credible expert on negotiations. :rocker:
  13. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    You WIN the Deion Branch Memorial Disingenuous Description AWARD.

    You hit all the important points and did it better than I. Thank you. ;)
  14. stinkypete

    stinkypete Rookie

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    Do you really prefer Deion Branch over Randy Moss AND Donte Stallworth? Better question, do you think we would have traded a 2nd rounder for Welker if Branch were still on the team?
  15. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    David Givens basically said that. He said he liked the Pats and thanked them forhte opportunity, but as a 7th round pick made very little money and he felt it was important for him to take the highest offer.

    Law and Milloy also were pretty upfront about money being the most important factor in deciding where to play.

    Weasels like Vinatieri, Branch, etc try to make it out that they want to play for NE, but are getting the respect, when what they mean is that they would gladly play for New England if only New England would offer more money than anyone else.

    However, I don't think they are being deceitful. Listening to them I really believe they equate money with respect. A low offer means they are not being respected, worse they are being disrespected. For all their ability and vigor and fitness and fame, they behave as though they have no inner esteem. Pretty weird when you think about it.
  16. Grizzafted

    Grizzafted Rookie

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    Yes, I do think they'd have made the run at Welker with Branch still on the team. We would have needed a slot guy no matter what.

    I've seen Moss in action, I know what he's capable of. He and Stallworth both have essentially one-year contracts. It's by no means a given that either of them are going to mesh well with Brady. They obviously have that potential, and if it happens with one or both I'm going to be ecstatic, but Branch was a known quantity. How will Stallworth or Moss perform in a conference championship game on the road? It's anyone's guess until they prove something.

    The upside of Moss is far higher than Branch. But we won 2 super bowls with Branch, during one of which he came up with 11 balls, running routes that Moss isn't well known for. If, IF, everything falls into place, this is the best WR corps in the Brady era, but a lot needs to happen first, and I'll be surprised if everybody is on the same page, clicking well by October.

    There are going to be games where the long ball is not going to be a major factor, and it remains to be seen how those two function in the short passing game. Apparently Stallworth was dropping balls in minicamp, and Moss isn't known for running across the middle. Will the passing game work with Stallworth and Moss running fly and out routes and Welker and Watson picking up the slack between the hash marks? I hope so. I have to see it first. I'd still rather have the known quantity, all things considered.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  17. Oswlek

    Oswlek Rookie

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    If you are a high school math teacher in your 12th year making $47,000 a year and your college buddy is a math teacher in the neighboring district and he makes $63,000 per year...

    You'd damn well feel disrespected yourself. I have no problem with them equating money with respect, particularly when their earning years are so short. What I have a problem with is guys acting as if they shared no culpability in the communication breakdown. If Deion really wanted to stay here, he could have gotten much of what Seattle gave him by just countering. NE even offered him the same contract if he would just fire Chayut.
  18. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Although it is all conjecture what we would or wouldn't have done if we resigned Branch, I think Branch is a better fit for the Pats' system than either Moss or Stallworth. It is yet to be known if either guy will make a good fit here.

    Also, the Pats did try to trade for Stallworth last year, but the Saints were looking for LB help which we couldn't offer. There is a strong possibility Stallworth would have been here with or without Branch.

    Also, there is a possibility that Welker would still be here since we obviously know that the Pats weren't high on this draft because they did everything to trade out of it. They still might have thought Welker was a better bet than anything you could get in the second round.

    I believe the Pats were right in not giving Branch what he was looking for. I also agree that not all the WRs we added would not be here today, but I could see one or two of the group of Welker, Stallworth, and Moss being on this team whether Branch was here or not.
  19. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Grizzafted, do you think NE should have simply torn up the final year of Deion's rookie contract?

    THAT was the issue. NE was willing to pay Deion $6M for each year they extended him. Even if that wouldn't get it done, it would have been close enough to negotiate from.

    The problem was that Deion insisted his final 1 year / $1.5M of his rookie contract not be figured into any extension. The contract NE offered accounted for it, bringing the average over the life of the deal to below $6M.

    Deion's camp didn't counter-offer because tearing up that year was non-negotiable to them, and NE had made it clear that wasn't going to happen.

    So if you wanted NE to do that, and have every single player on his rookie contract have a precedent to site when they want the same treatment, then yes they should have just re-signed Branch.

    As for my personal feelings on Branch, he's gone so I don't really care. I have a negative view of him but don't want to bother thinking about him. He's gone, and other guys are here. Let's focus on them.
  20. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Branch may fit better, but he's half the player Moss is. I'm still not sold on Moss in NE but let's not pretend to two compare as WRs. If Moss behaves and absorbs the system he can do things Deion Branch can only dream about.
  21. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    At the end of the day the worst thing that could have happened from a player relations standpoint between Deion and this team occurred when the mediots in the press box in Jacksonville decided to give Tommy's third Superbowls MVP trophy to Branch. I think they feared what winning a third would do to the Manning vs. Brady debate. So instead of giving it to a guy who knows what to do with them - take 'em home and put 'em on the nightstand, and move on - they gave that one to a kid who hearing his name mentioned in the same breath as Jerry Rice suddenly assumed his ship had come in. The Pat's tried to begin negotiating an extension with him following that game, but just as suddenly he had issues to rehash and a trophy to wave in their faces any time rational comparables were being discussed and phrases like less than a thousand yards came up. I feared what that award woudl do to him, and I was correct - he was good as gone that night.

    I think Asante's 12 pick season has had a similar effect on a guy who like Deion already apparently felt he'd been undervalued for some time. After all, he has 2 more Superbowl rings in his jewelry box than either Champ Bailey or Nate Clements or Nathan Vasher... It's almost enough to make a fan wish we had a Ray Lewis on defense who could have easily cut Asante's INT total in half...LOL Almost.

    This is the price we pay for winning. Lots of teams and fans pay the same price without winning a thing. It is what it is - which is why it's best for us to just leave it to Belioli to deal with it as they will. I do think in his heart Deion wanted to stay because of the way his QB and his teamates had embraced him - he just wanted his money more. I think Asante, who is somewhat more of a loner, would be happy to stay here. However I've never felt Asante genuinely cares one way or the other as long as he gets paid.
  22. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Thank you......
    But I think I left a few things out...like his not attendance at the Pats charity golf tournament and the fact that he told the press he would not hold out that year and....it's all there if people wish to see it.
    I KNOW some claimed that there was some other things not publicly known where Deion was snubbed..but if that IS the case that would go against him wishing to be with the team as he said.
    It all just does NOT go together. When Seymour held out it was done in a different way and they were able to get an agreement. Deion and his agent kept putting up roadblocks at every step of the way. It's one thing not get "run over"...it's another to set up a wall like he did, forcing the Pats to make a move.
    Somehow, I believe in some way he WANTED TO BE a Patriot and really had no idea what effect his actions were going to have on the team. But in reality, his actions..none of them, gave ANY indication he wished to be part of the team..in fact they indicated the opposite. In fact, in every interview after, he seemed confused as to why he was traded; somehow a bit out of touch with his actions.
    Interesting how he sees Samuel now..HE got his money..a pile of green..and
    let's see if he can play up to the standards of that large amount of cash he got.
    I would have been happy to have him stay here, but I think the green was far more imprtant to him than staying a Patriot. And THAt is fine!! Except NOT when one is under contract.
  23. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I question if Moss is half the receiver people think he is. For all the excuses made for him the last few years, no one knows if he is anywhere close to the receiver he was in 2003. Yes, it might have been his situation, but it also could be he lost a step.

    I still question whether he can run the routes neccessary to be make him fit into the Pats' system. He primarily ran basic routes with no presnap reads. The Pats will require him to conform at least somewhat to the Pats' system because Brady isn't going to turn into Culpepper and become a gunslinger.
  24. Grizzafted

    Grizzafted Rookie

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    In the end with Branch it's a judgment call. I'm not going to go against Pioli and his team. I do feel like both sides were slightly unskillful, which I blame mostly on Branch's agent. Probably, if you put both sides into a room and looked at things in retrospect, you'd see that they both would say, "well, I should have done this instead of that," and he'd still be a Patriot. This was a lose-lose trade, even with Moss in red, white, and blue.

    Not all guys with rookie contracts are going to have the value of Branch. With him on the team, I think the Patriots could easily have gone 14-2 last year and the AFC game would have been in Foxboro. Asante, despite being at times a game-changer, doesn't have the same value as Deion did. There could have been a bit more give from the Pats FO in their negotiating stance, but its old news, obviously. I'm happy and excited about the team we had.

    Key in that article was Branch basically saying, "Asante, you'd be f*ckin' nuts to leave 8 million dollars on the table."
  25. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Personally, I thought it was Harrison's, he was the superglue holding that secondary together and did pretty well as McNabb's receiver, considering Freddie Mitchell was in tight coverage on him for most of the game. But they don't give the trophy to safeties.

    If they did, Harrison would have put it in the same place Brady keeps his.
  26. sieglo

    sieglo Rookie

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    100% agree, it should have gone to Harrison. Then Brady. Then Branch.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2007
  27. Lloyd_Christmas

    Lloyd_Christmas I can delete my own crap! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Moss is a one year contract.

    Stallworth is technically signed through 2012. I know what you meant about essentially a 1 year contract - the Patriots would have to pay Stallworth 11+M in 2008. However, the remaining years are much lower and the total contract for six years is $33.1 million. (see: http://www.patscap.com/capfootnotes.html#stallworth ) That is less than 6M per season average which is again, less than Branch wanted.

    If you believe the Welker trade would have happened anyway, then the rest of the WR corp would probably be about the same.

    That leaves a choice of:

    1) Branch signed through 2012 at over 6M per year

    or

    2) Moss signed for one year at 3M and an extra 2008 1st round draft choice.
    and Stallworth signed to either a 1 year 2.773M contract or a 6 year 33.1M contract.

    The biggest downside was the impact it had on last season. Other than that, I'd rather have choice #2.
  28. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Why do you blame Branch's agent but not Branch? Agents require the consent of the players they represent and work for what the player wants. They don't hold players hostage in an attempt to make money. Deion signed off on everything, and it could just as easily been his idea.

    How was it a lose-lose trade? Deion got a ton of money. Deion definitely won in what transpired. Whether or not it was good for NE is debatable, but I would never call it lose-lose.

    So your answer to my question of "do you think NE should have simply torn up the final year of Deion's rookie contract?" is that Branch was a special case due to his value? Hmm, lets look at guys on rookie deals currently on the team who have significant value to the team today, let alone when they only have 1 year left: Warren, Wilfork, Watson, and Maroney are no doubters. I'd probably have to add Mankins to that list, and Hobbs probably believes he belongs. So if all of these guys refuse to play out the last year of their deal NE should talk it over with them and work something out?
  29. arrellbee

    arrellbee Rookie

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    Samuels tatoo says "Get Paid" rather than being some Patriots logo......... Is there a hint there somwhere ?
  30. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Well..they did not do this in Brady's case....OR Seymour's...so??? I think this is where the team drew the final line....and Branch would NOT give in an inch to this. I am not really sure that Branch conceded anything at all..
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