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Defensive players whining about a less violent NFL...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BradyManny, Oct 6, 2009.

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  1. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Ray Lewis pathetic outburst on Sunday and Rodney's [joking] digs at Brady yesterday bring up an ongoing issue, which is that certain players feel the game is losing its physicality, and those players, are more often than not, on the defensive side of the ball.

    I emphasis that they are on the defensive side of the ball b/c they are essentially on the attack at all times - Rodney and Ray get to run around the field and throw their bodies at people. At no time do Rodney or Ray Ray face the same threat, particularly to their knees, that a QB in the pocket planting their feet and throwing a ball does. It's not even close to comparable.

    So, why, under any circumstances should these guys have their opinions respected on this issue? There are rules in place protecting their knees from blocks that could potentially do damage, why shouldn't the QB have comparable protection??

    On top of that, the players are getting bigger & faster than was imaginable thirty years ago when the game was, in fact, more violent. And how much of that can be attributed to improvements in the science of strength & conditioning, and supplements, legal or otherwise (and I'm looking at you now, Rodney)? Honestly, I hate to take a shot at Harrison as he is one of my all-time favorite Patriots, but you got a guy who was busted for PEDs complaining that the game isn't physical enough - the reason QBs have to be protected now more than ever is b/c the players on the other side of the ball are an ungodly and unnatural combination of speed & strength and can inflict more damage and more injuries than otherwise possible.

    Franky, I'm just sick of hearing defensive players bytch and moan about the game losing its physicality. They dish out pain, but aside from taking on blocks (which Ray Lewis does his best to avoid anyway), they don't take it.
  2. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x Rookie

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    I don't think its fair to lump Ray Lewis' comments with the general feeling by many players that the game has had some 'oomph' taken out of it.

    I'd say that yes, the league will continue to create rules that promote player safety. This is a change, because the rules didn't exist before. As with any change, there will be those who oppose it.

    Is it better? I don't know. Will people argue for both sides of it? Certainly. Are Ray Lewis' comments related? Tangentially.
  3. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Why do you say that? Personally, I thought they came off as very general remarks about the state of the game, and not just as specific complaints about the two calls on Brady (both of which were properly made calls).
  4. FirstAndGoal

    FirstAndGoal Rookie

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    I don't think Ray was taking a shot at Brady. He was taking a shot at the rules. I didn't hear anything that was a shot at Brady. I think they have a healthy respect for each other.
  5. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Agreed - that's what I'm saying, he was complaining about a rule that protects the QB knees, yet there are rules in place protecting defensive players knees from blocks as well. And the QB is the one who is most exposed to that kind of injury, anyway.
  6. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The NFL is oriented to offense and specifically to the passing game. That's what produces big numbers, big ratings, big plays, and big stars like Manning, Brady and Brees. We didn't start it. In fact, we were victims of it when Polian and his Rules Committee made changes to prevent us from physically intimidating and beating up the Colts.

    It's sometimes a fine line between physical and dirty play, and I can understand the need to protect players. But personally I prefer a bit more physical play on both sides of the ball. Highlights are fine, but it's not an NBA slam dunk contest, after all. The physical nature of the game is part of what makes football what it is.

    I sympathize with defensive players feeling that the NFL is being overprotective. But to ignore the rules and try and play the way you used to when you know it's going to get called is stupid. The league instituted rules about blows to the head and the Brady rule, and they're going to call those things until someone changes the rules.
  7. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    I think they should ban defenders from running at the QB as it could up his stress levels and we all know stress is a silent killer... :rolleyes:

    I'd rather see teams build better O-Lines than have to institute a gazillion rules to keep QB's alive.
  8. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey


    so to put it short only the players that gain from the rule changes can complain about them. :rolleyes: whether the rules should be added or not is one thing but saying that guys who have to change the way they play can not complain is kind of foolish.


    Oh yeah and you don't think trying to tackle Brandon Jacobs is painful? or even Ray Rice you see the momentum he had going for him on that big run you get in the way of that and say its not painful.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  9. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    But for all the whining, defensive players essentially have the same protection that QBs have with the Brady rule & other existing rules - you can't dive at their knees either.
  10. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    There's a difference between pain and season-ending injury. The quarterbacks are more exposed than defensive players, and it's not even close.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  11. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Ray Ray *****es on the radio about the rules every time the Ravens lose a game. He's a sore loser. Simple as that.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  12. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Rules have been added in my lifetime to protect the defensive players knees, I can't once remember hearing offensive linemen complain about it.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  13. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    Again, where was Ray Ray week one when Vince and AD were hit with roughing calls that were worse than the two on Brady?

    Did he complain about the Wright penalty?

    His opinion would be worthy of respect if he also specifically complained about the Wright penalty. It was in the same game!!!!

    Aso, he should be complaining about rules to protect defensive players like crackback blocks, leg whips, tripping, clipping....

    Why doesn't Ray Ray invite everyone to go for his knees?Be an example and show us how tough football players really are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Where was Ray Ray when Thomas got hit with the roughing call last year against Indianapolis?
  14. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Right this is my main problem. Why doesn't Ray Lewis ask for rules about blocks in the back or chipping to be eliminated?

    And the same goes for Rodney - he's complaining about QBs being protected, but Rodney was - and rightfully so - upset about the cheap shot Wade took that ended his season in 06.
  15. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    no where did I say the knees shouldn't be protected. I think that is a good rule addition but I think there should be some tweaks to the protection rules because some are over board the fact that if you just tap a QB on the helmet you get a blow to the head call is ridiculous there should be some judgement there was it incidental was it actually rough same with the one about picking them up and slamming them a la A.D. earlier this year by the letter of the rule A.D. prolly commited a roughing but he didn't excessively slam him and if the refs were allowed a litte judgment not into intent but into how hard the contact actually was than maybe it wouldn't be so bad again the knees should be protected though.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  16. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Why? Why should Suggs be penalized less for Grazing a QB's knee than blowing someone's knee out. You punish the action, not the outcome. If you don't penalize guys for diving at the knees and missing, they keep diving until they hit.
  17. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Well, I don't disagree - let me just put it this way - we, as fans, can b*tch, moan, do whatever - we are not paid to play this game. But the players, as professionals who know the rules & have an obligation to play by them, have no right to. Especially on the defensive side of the ball when they are the guys inflicting these hits. Did AD or Wilfork go on a tirade after the game about the physicality of the game, or the new rules? Hell no.

    And I think Synovia makes a great point above - "you punish the action, not the outcome" - very well put. Suggs dove at Brady's knee, if Brady doesn't hop out the way, we'd be in trouble right now.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  18. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x Rookie

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    I say that because I inferred that Ray Lewis was having a complain fest because he was upset about losing. I didn't clearly state that, and I'm not sure how many other people agree or disagree.

    So, my opinion was based on a piece of information I did not share, which probably caused some confusion.

    Anyways, I just think Ray was being a sore loser.
  19. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    I am not sure he is specifically refering to the knee rules as I would bet he agrees with that especially if you phrased it the way you just did. IMO its the collective nature of it you can't hit them high, you an't hit them low, you can't pick them up and slam, you can't bare all your weight on them, and you can't sneeze in their direction because of n1h1. Whats next no blind side hits those seem dangerous?
  20. PrairiePat

    PrairiePat Rookie

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    #32 Jersey

    Back to '3 yards and a cloud of dust', eh JSn? So it's all the OL's fault that QBs are getting hurt? C'mon! :rolleyes:

    Players are faster and stronger than ever, some even legally, and the game has to adapt to keep things from devolving into a demolition derby out there. Think about it. Defensive players can't headslap, closeline, horse collar, facemask, helmet spear, etc. Offensive players can't hold, chop block, or push in the back. These were mostly changes designed to prevent injuries, and they've been very successful. The 2 QB rules (hit to the head and hit to the knees) fall into this group. Now it's just a matter of the defenses getting used to it, and referees learning to call it correctly.
  21. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    defensive players with big mouths complaining have no where near the vulnerability with ther knees. NO WHERE!!! Let Ray ray and other big mouth players play QB and see what QBs have to face. My guess is that big mouths would understand WHY there are certain rules needed for QBs as they are more open to injury and have a larger impact on a team.
    I don't think the Ravens HAVE had a situation with a QB injured and gone..so Ray ray is talking through a non experience. Maybe if Flacco got injured on a questionable play would his mantra change..don't know that.
    BTW, local hole Felger agrees totally with Ray ray...not surprised at all.
  22. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Sure, when you put it that way - I can see your point. But again, I just think these defensive players are so biased in this argument, that their opinion just shouldn't be taken at all (and again, they oughta just be playing by the rules that have been established). I'm damn sure I've complained about RTP on Wilfork or AD in the past, but I would be disappointed if those guys went off on a rant about the league b/c of those calls.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  23. Ghost of Ben Dreith

    Ghost of Ben Dreith Rookie

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    There are a lot of solid comments in this thread on protecting player's knees:

    1. OL can't go high/low on a DL man

    2. Can't block at the knees on KR/PR

    3. No crackback blocks

    4. QB's get fined for going at the knees of a Defensive player too..(Sanchez with the personal foul against NO on the 99yd int. return)


    To sum it up, it just seems that this was a long time coming in the need to protect QB's. Lewis is being a little beotch just because the Pats stiffed the Ravens again. This should be such a non-story....or if it was a story should have been titled......."QB's Get Same Protection as Other Players".
  24. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    I would perfer no one b*tch and moan but to say that the defense cant only the offense can is kind of foolish.

    As I said twice in that post knees should definitely be protected but some of the other ones could use a little descretion. Do you think A.D. should have been called for one vs the Bills?
  25. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you make these statements right after losing a game in which you frankly state that there were questionable calls, it's called whining and sour grapes.

    If you want to address the level of physicality allowed in the NFL and how it is enforced, you have to discuss it outside of the context of the last game which was a tough loss. In the context it was discussed, Ray Lewis' comments are meaningless.

    Another possibility is to discuss this issue when it is your side that is the beneficiary of these calls and complain about how you got an unfair advantage because of the way the rules are enforced. Hey, when was the last time that happened? :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
  26. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    sign

    I really think this is a three topic discussion

    Ray Ray is a whiner and needs to do Kotex commercials.

    Should officials call approved rules.

    Are the rules correct?

    My guess most would think it's a little too restrictive.
  27. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    I think the whistle should have been blown before AD started his takedown. That was as clear a "in the grasp" play as I've ever seen. As the play ran though, yeah, he should have been called. He lifted the QB off the ground. The rule says thats a penalty.
  28. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly right on both counts. Even though AD cradled the QB and didn't body slam him, it was a dumb play. But the play should have been blown dead. If the refs really want to protect the QB they would have blown the play dead. The problem is, the NFL wants to protect the QB but still allow for Rothlisberger-type miracle completions when he is in the grasp.
  29. olschool

    olschool Rookie

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    The main problem is, we all get to see the play in super slo-mo from many angles, after the fact, while the official has to make a snap decision from his single point of view. Officials often consult with each other, and sometimes pick up the flag. Every added or tweaked up rule just makes their job harder.
    That's why the NFL is so reluctant to keep changing rules.

    Rules will always be argued about, no matter what they are. It just depends on whether your team is on the receiving end or not, as to whether it's a good call.
    I don't remember any Patriots fans complaining about the tuck rule, even if it is a lame rule. And years later, the rule is still there, so someone must think it's a good idea.

    In the end, the game has become more violent than ever imagined,because the players are bigger than ever imagined.Too many players are being lost to injury, and the league is going to change it, whether we, or the players, like it or not.
  30. spacecrime

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    You can't have it both ways. Either you think a QB's knees should be protected or you think they shouldn't. If you do, then a penalty for diving at a QB's knees, as SUggs did, is appropriate. The fact that Brady hopped sp he wasn't caught with his cleats in the turf is irrelevant. If Brady had lost an ACL you would be crying a different tune. You can't only call penalties when the dive results in a season-ending injury because that isn't protecting the QB at all. The defender dives at the knees, 15 yards. Simple as that.

    The problem with Lewis and Harrison is they keep saying a QB should man up and take hits like they do.

    When Ray Lewis says I will stand here with my arms up in the air and look the other way when an OG runs at me full speed and hits me in the back a few times (which is legal on a QB) and gets up and does it a few more times and says he will do it every week, then I will respect his opinion. Until then he is merely a coward wanting to hit players who are not in a position to defend themselves.

    QBs take horrific legal hits, worse than anyone on the field. All the NFL is doing is protecting their heads and knees.

    It is like PI. Don't arm bar a guy unless you expect a flag. Well, don't dive for a QB's knees or hit his head unless you expect to get a flag.
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