Decade of players "drafted" under BB and Pioli

[blackglass3]

Post spygate = 0 Super Bowls

If it was so helpful, why didn't they win the Super Bowl every single year before 07?

 

[Mr. Pollard]

If it was so helpful, why didn't they win the Super Bowl every single year before 07?

It didn't help them at all, knowing what the defense is going to run on a given play gives no advantage whatsoever. None.

Perhaps the teams they lost to in previous years weren't on their regular season schedule to tape them?

 

[Joker]

It didn't help them at all, knowing what the defense is going to run on a given play gives no advantage whatsoever. None.

Perhaps the teams they lost to in previous years weren't on their regular season schedule to tape them?

total urban myth...the central, and ONLY, issue of "spygate" was the POSITIONING of the cameras. All teams tape the games they play. Don't let that stop your completely erroneous and uninformed rant, however.

 

[Mr. Pollard]

total urban myth...the central, and ONLY, issue of "spygate" was the POSITIONING of the cameras. All teams tape the games they play. Don't let that stop your completely erroneous and uninformed rant, however.

Taping the games from high above and blatantly taping the defensive coordinators signals from the sideline to use in against them in the future is not the same thing. Sorry.

 

[emoney_33]

total urban myth...the central, and ONLY, issue of "spygate" was the POSITIONING of the cameras. All teams tape the games they play. Don't let that stop your completely erroneous and uninformed rant, however.

Let the troll starve.

 

[Joker]

Taping the games from high above and blatantly taping the defensive coordinators signals from the sideline to use in against them in the future is not the same thing. Sorry.

content wise it isn't??? interesting leap in logic there...just what exactly does a sideline cam see that another sideline cam positioned ABOVE the field doesn't? you're struggling badly trying to defend your obvious bias..

 

[Joker]

sorry e-money...you're right

 

[blackglass3]

It didn't help them at all, knowing what the defense is going to run on a given play gives no advantage whatsoever. None.

Perhaps the teams they lost to in previous years weren't on their regular season schedule to tape them?

You know every team scouts, right? I worked security at the Eagles/Giants game this year at the Linc. I was at the top of the section overlooking the endzone closest to Route 95. They have scouts from each team watching and recording the field from there. Recording down, distance, and defenseive coordinators is perfectly legal from where it was done that day. Recording these same things from the sidelines is what is against the bylaw of the league, and what the Patriots were fined for.

This is what I never get about you fu<king trolls. Please, tell me how it helped so much that it won a few Super Bowls, but not help enough to win all of them. Besides that, they lost to the Broncos in the 05 playoffs, whom they had played in the regular season. And they lost to the Colts in 06, whom they had played in the regular season. By your theory, if it was such a huge advantage, shouldn't they have had no problem with these games?

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Steelers

2009
Rnd Name
1 Evander Hood - Backup DL with 5 tackles and 3 assists all season
3 Kraig Urbik - backup OL who's yet to see the field
3 Mike Wallace - promising young receiver
3 Keenan Lewis - IR'd after 4 games, has 1 career tackle
5 Joe Burnett - backup CB for Steelers
5 Frank Summers - IR'd after week 3, 0 carries, 0 receptions
6 Ra'Shon Harris - cut by Pitt, PS signing for Carolina, signed by Pitt
7 A.Q. Shipley - cut by Steelers, signed by Eagles after season
7 David Johnson - backup TE for Steelers

2008
Rnd Name
1 Rashard Mendenhall - after early struggles, he seems solid
2 Limas Sweed - huge bust to this point, with 7 career catches
3 Bruce Davis - Patriots practice squad
4 Tony Hills - backup OL who's never seen the field
5 Dennis Dixon - backup QB
6 Mike Humpal - out of football
6 Ryan Mundy - backup for Steelers

2007
Rnd Name
1 Lawrence Timmons - quality linebacker
2 LaMarr Woodley - quality linebacker
3 Matt Spaeth - #2 tight end
4 Daniel Sepulveda - Steelers' punter
4 Ryan McBean - cut by Steelers, starter for Broncos this season
5 Cameron Stephenson - on Jaguars practice squad
5 William Gay - consistent starter for first time in year 3
7 Dallas Baker - out of football

2006
Rnd Name
1 Santonio Holmes - top flight receiver
3 Anthony Smith - backup. has started just 2 games in last 2 years
3 Willie Reid - out of football
4 Willie Colon - starting tackle
4 Orien Harris - on his 5th team since 2006, has 1 career start
5 Omar Jacobs - out of football
5 Charles Davis - out of football
6 Marvin Philip - out of football
7 Cedric Humes - out of football


Now, that's the vaunted Steelers draft history since 2006. When people stop expecting every pick to be a future Hall of Famer, the conversations about the draft can begin to be reasonable.

By your own account from 06-08 Steelers drafted;
Santonio Holmes
Lamar Woodley
Lawrence Timmons
R.Mendenhall
W.Colon -starting RT
W.Gay -starting CB
Sepulveda P

Pats starters 06-08
Meriweather
Mayo

part timers
Maroney
Wilhite

Gostkowski

Every team is going to have its misses. It's the hits that matter. By my account Steelers still did better during that span

 

[Mr. Pollard]

You know every team scouts, right? I worked security at the Eagles/Giants game this year at the Linc. I was at the top of the section overlooking the endzone closest to Route 95. They have scouts from each team watching and recording the field from there. Recording down, distance, and defenseive coordinators is perfectly legal from where it was done that day. Recording these same things from the sidelines is what is against the bylaw of the league, and what the Patriots were fined for.

This is what I never get about you fu<king trolls. Please, tell me how it helped so much that it won a few Super Bowls, but not help enough to win all of them. Besides that, they lost to the Broncos in the 05 playoffs, whom they had played in the regular season. And they lost to the Colts in 06, whom they had played in the regular season. By your theory, if it was such a huge advantage, shouldn't they have had no problem with these games?

yup everyone does it, everyone got a first round pick taken away, everyone got fined a half million dollars, everyone had to turn over a library of viedeotapes to be destroyed. everyone.

 

[blackglass3]

yup everyone does it, everyone got a first round pick taken away, everyone got fined a half million dollars, everyone had to turn over a library of viedeotapes to be destroyed. everyone.

Way to answer every question I had AND ignore everything said.

The way I felt after the Patriots lost the Super Bowl is most likely the way your parents feel about you every time they looks at you. You're useless and I hope you lose your hands in a lawnmower...the IQ of the internet would increase by 20 points.

 

[Deus Irae]

By your own account from 06-08 Steelers drafted;
Santonio Holmes
Lamar Woodley
Lawrence Timmons
R.Mendenhall
W.Colon -starting RT
W.Gay -starting CB
Sepulveda P

Pats starters 06-08
Meriweather
Mayo

part timers
Maroney
Wilhite

Gostkowski

Every team is going to have its misses. It's the hits that matter. By my account Steelers still did better during that span

Yes, if you ignore that Maroney is the team's starting running backk, and if you deliberately sideline Gostkowski the kicker while pimping Sepulveda the punter, and if you ignore that Wilhite was the starter for much of last season and this season, and if you ignore that Vollmer was the starter when the playoffs rolled around (you really can't argue against both Vollmer AND Wilhite as starters, after all), and if you ignore that Edelman started 7 games and that Ingram has become the team's long snapper....

If you ignore all of that, you have a point. However, since it's actually:

Santonio Holmes
Lamar Woodley
Lawrence Timmons
R.Mendenhall
W.Colon -starting RT
W.Gay -starting CB
Sepulveda P

vs.

Meriweather
Maroney
Mayo
Wilhite/Vollmer (You can only get rid of one)
Edelman
Ingram
Gostkowski
(Via Trade) Welker
(Via Trade) Moss

you suddenly have a different picture. Meriweather and Gostkowski are Pro Bowlers. Mayo is a DPOY. There are several other players who've made large contributions for the Patriots that aren't on the list. The reality is that, even with Moss/Welker not being counted for 2007, the drafts have been ok, though not special. 2006-2008 is probably just about 2-3 players short of where it should be, partially because of how the draft numbers panned out (Draft pick stolen by the NFL, no 2nd or 3rd round picks in 2007, injuries to Wheatley and Crable) ...... and the reality is that Moss/Welker helps make up the absence of those numbers.

However, you're point isn't where my issue is. I agree that there's been a drafting issue with the Patriots. I agree that the drafting problem for the Patriots hasn't been with misses. It's been with the lack of home run hits, since most of them have been singles and doubles. That's not the argument of the draft banshees, though. Their argument is that the drafts have been failures because of all the misses. They are the ones that the Steelers draft breakdown is aimed towards enlightening.

 

[Kontradiction]

yup everyone does it, everyone got a first round pick taken away, everyone got fined a half million dollars, everyone had to turn over a library of viedeotapes to be destroyed. everyone.

You've obviously never played football before because, if you did, you'd know that stealing signals is something that happens on a regular basis. Hell, even my dad (who was a coach both at the pee-wee level and the high school level) got his defensive signals stolen by another coach in pee-wee football. It happens. On top of that, stealing signals is NOT against the rules, contrary to popular belief. Videotaping them, however, is.

As for the first round draft pick getting taken away, look no further than mental midgits such as yourself. People like you absolutely refuse to do any due diligence whatsoever when it comes to this. It's easier to keep your eyes closed and scream, "CHEATERS, CHEATERS, CHEATERS" then it is to go and find out actual facts about the case. People like you and networks like ESPN pretty much ensured that the story got blown completely out of proportion. The backlash was so bad that Goodell pretty much had no other choice than to take the first round pick away. No matter, we already had one in the top ten that year anyway.

By the way, and I tell all the trolls this, you should really go look up what Jimmy Johnson said about Tony Dungy's staff and their videotaping procedures. See, nobody ever talks about that. I guess it's because Dungy is such a likeable guy and Manning's commercials are too funny.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yes, if you ignore that Maroney is the team's starting running backk, and if you deliberately sideline Gostkowski the kicker while pimping Sepulveda the punter, and if you ignore that Wilhite was the starter for much of last season and this season, and if you ignore that Vollmer was the starter when the playoffs rolled around (you really can't argue against both Vollmer AND Wilhite as starters, after all), and if you ignore that Edelman started 7 games and that Ingram has become the team's long snapper....

If you ignore all of that, you have a point. However, since it's actually:

Santonio Holmes
Lamar Woodley
Lawrence Timmons
R.Mendenhall
W.Colon -starting RT
W.Gay -starting CB
Sepulveda P

vs.

Meriweather
Maroney
Mayo
Wilhite/Vollmer (You can only get rid of one)
Edelman
Ingram
Gostkowski
(Via Trade) Welker
(Via Trade) Moss

you suddenly have a different picture. Meriweather and Gostkowski are Pro Bowlers. Mayo is a DPOY. There are several other players who've made large contributions for the Patriots that aren't on the list. The reality is that, even with Moss/Welker not being counted for 2007, the drafts have been ok, though not special. 2006-2008 is probably just about 2-3 players short of where it should be, partially because of how the draft numbers panned out (Draft pick stolen by the NFL, no 2nd or 3rd round picks in 2007, injuries to Wheatley and Crable) ...... and the reality is that Moss/Welker helps make up the absence of those numbers.

However, you're point isn't where my issue is. I agree that there's been a drafting issue with the Patriots. I agree that the drafting problem for the Patriots hasn't been with misses. It's been with the lack of home run hits, since most of them have been singles and doubles. That's not the argument of the draft banshees, though. Their argument is that the drafts have been failures because of all the misses. They are the ones that the Steelers draft breakdown is aimed towards enlightening.

I wasn't trying to sideline Gostkowski or pimp Sepulvada. I actually thought that you could call that and maybe even Whilite/Gay a wash. I was in a rush when I wrote it and didn't format it very well. I'm starting to lean towards Maroney being a disappointment more than anything else while I thnk that Mendenhall is a solid player. My thinking is that Mendenhall + Timmons + Woodley + Holmes + Colon is better than Maroney + Mayo + Meriweather. I also limited it to 06-08 because I think that only having 5 players contributing from three drafts, one being a kicker, one being a nickel back and one being a part time RB has really set this team back a few steps. You are right, they are 2-3 players short of where they should be, pretty much where the Steelers are during that time. It would appear that they turned things around in 2009 and another good draft in 2010 would help to make up for it, they just need a couple of impact players.

 

[PowerAlley.com]

Well the Pats drafted well enough to be 1 defensive stop from the greatest season in history.

 

[emoney_33]

I wasn't trying to sideline Gostkowski or pimp Sepulvada. I actually thought that you could call that and maybe even Whilite/Gay a wash. I was in a rush when I wrote it and didn't format it very well. I'm starting to lean towards Maroney being a disappointment more than anything else while I thnk that Mendenhall is a solid player. My thinking is that Mendenhall + Timmons + Woodley + Holmes + Colon is better than Maroney + Mayo + Meriweather. I also limited it to 06-08 because I think that only having 5 players contributing from three drafts, one being a kicker, one being a nickel back and one being a part time RB has really set this team back a few steps. You are right, they are 2-3 players short of where they should be, pretty much where the Steelers are during that time. It would appear that they turned things around in 2009 and another good draft in 2010 would help to make up for it, they just need a couple of impact players.

Maroney is getting 750 yards per season on a team that is pass oriented and has multiple RBs. How anyone can call that a "bust" is beyond me.

You throw away Wilhite when he has played 57% of the snaps, 10th most on defense and more than any other CB except Bodden.

Matthew Slater is a significant special teams contributor, that is NOT meaningless nor "bust".

David Thomas was traded.

2 draft picks were used to get Welker and Moss.

And you continue to ignore the very good draft of last year.

 

[Joker]

not to belabor this already beaten to death horse of a point but I chronicled the whole sordid spygate mess last year, replete with the unbelievable idiocies of Schlereth,Easterbrook,FSPN et al that were propagated as FACT when in reality they were 100% fallacious...from "how you could do it!!!" to "this is what MUST have happened!!!"..it seemed anyone who ever was on the losing end of a Patriots win had an axe to grind..and grind they did.

There are certain FACTS that the media and Goodell have never answered about the timing and genesis of Goodell's actions.

It is a FACT that Goodell was born into a family RICH in NY Jets tradition as evidenced by his senator father's box at the Meadowlands for Jets games.

It is a FACT that Goodell broke into the NFL by working FOR the NY Jets as an intern...in itself seemingly innocuous but, given the circumstances that would evolve years later, leading any competant investigator to question WHY he rendered judgement in this case rather than handing it over to an independent arbitrator.

It is a FACT that Mangini had not one but TWO cameras field level for a Jets/Pats game,claimed the Pats gave him permission which was subsequently roundly denied by Belichick and yet not one whiff of protestation by the commisioner's office.

It is a FACT that the week before the Jets/Pats opener in 2007 and before the spygate charges became public, that Mangini was summoned to NFL offices in Manhattan. What was purpose of THAT meeting?? Goodell has never disclosed THIS publicly.

smoke yet no fire? Goodell harbors the REAL answers but it's a good bet we'll never know until a deep throat emerges..perhaps in the upcoming war looming on the horizon.

 

[jmt57]

Belichick took Parcells drafted guys here and his FA's from the Jets which made up the core.

That's already been refuted earlier, no point in repeating that answer.

Lucked out on a 6th rnd draft pick in Brady.

Amazing that in the eyes of opposing fans like you that the Brady selection was luck, but any other team's late round or undrafted free agent pick that turns out well is superior player evaluation.

Jury is still out on Belichick if he can win without extra videotape,

Belichick's record post videotape: 37-11
What's the Jets' record during that time?

but the jury has spoken on his drafting prowess,

Why, does the jury think he should have drafted the guy your team took - Gholston?

EPIC FAIL!

Check in the mirror for that, Chowda!

 

[RyanP421]

I ran a similar analysis two or three years ago, comparing Patriots draft performance to the league. The results then demonstrated that the Patriots performed significantly better than the league in the first round, well below league average in the second, and about average across the bottom.

Anyone that pulls out names like Brady and Givens to prove the Patriots' drafting ability in the later rounds needs to also then dredge up the leagues of players no longer around. Brady was obviously influenced by luck - if the Patriots had any idea of his potential, they would have drafted him in the first. Givens, as many recall, was a pick that the Patriots passed on a number of times before actually making the call.
And I'm surprised at all the negative feedback regarding the classification of Marquise Hill. Did he die 'trying to save the life of another' or out jet-skiing with another woman? And how does that impact his on-the-field results? Marquise Hill was a second round pick. In three seasons he had two total tackles and one assist. Seymour missed five games during that period - there were opportunities. Before passing away, the feeling on this board was that he would be released in training camp cuts. I hope this doesn't devolve into a who-can-type-loudest debate on Hill's performance, but it is indicative of some of the response.

Yes, this analysis is much more insightful when compared to league performance.

Based on comparing recent results to previous analysis, I'd guess that the Patriots are still probably better in the first than league average. No clear busts. Pats picks in the first are generally fairly safe. I would guess still worse than league average in the second. And probably about average after that.

However, the league has clear drop-offs in performance round by round. First round picks have a much higher rate of success than second round picks, and so forth.

If your strategy is to trade down year after year, you would need to perform quite a bit better than league average to be successful with that approach.

Compare that approach to the Jets' results, moving up to target players like Revis and Sanchez.

Simply not true.

Just because you have your eye on someone and think they can succeed doesn't mean you will draft him until you have to. They could have liked Givens and thought no one else would draft him so they could sit on him and draft other players that were on other teams' radars first. Same for Brady.

 

[emoney_33]

Simply not true.

Just because you have your eye on someone and think they can succeed doesn't mean you will draft him until you have to. They could have liked Givens and thought no one else would draft him so they could sit on him and draft other players that were on other teams' radars first. Same for Brady.

To expand on this, Pioli said (and I'm paraphrasing) that they really liked Brady, but kept passing on him even though he was the best on their board in earlier rounds because they had Bledsoe. When the 6th round rolled around, he was so much higher than anyone else on their board that they had to take him.