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Concepts some posters could benefit from learning


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Did you figure out what a variable is? That seemed to have you stumped a minute ago.

so now you're been reduced to hurling insults. awesome
 
so now you're been reduced to hurling insults. awesome

Variable is an insult?

Believe me,I'm ashamed of myself for ever posting in this thread if it makes you feel any better.:scared:
 
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Variable is an insult?

Believe me,I'm ashamed of myself for ever posting in this thread if it makes you feel any better.:scared:

cool, you can stop posting in it then
 
you see that's the problem. you keep eliminating situations you don't think "are clutch enough" and then eventually you're left with just a handful of at bats and then it means nothing

anyways, forget Yaz and go look at any other baseball player and you'll find the #'s say the same thing - clutch hitting is a small skill that is of relatively minor important


1st this a football board so why are you insistent on using baseball? Is it because there are more "stats" to pick from and some geek decided to reduce athletes to machines when they are not. You cannot get rid of the human element, weather or various other circumstances that you just CANNOT put in numbers.

Also I bolded your one sentence for two reasons. First you finally ar admitting that it exsists...finally! Second yeah real minor unless you actually want to win:rolleyes:
 
1st this a football board so why are you insistent on using baseball? Is it because there are more "stats" to pick from and some geek decided to reduce athletes to machines when they are not. You cannot get rid of the human element, weather or various other circumstances that you just CANNOT put in numbers.

they are all world class athletes, I'd be surprised if some felt more pressure than others b/c of their chosen sport. buy yes, baseball has allowed us to study these things b/c it's nature


1
Also I bolded your one sentence for two reasons. First you finally ar admitting that it exsists...finally! Second yeah real minor unless you actually want to win:rolleyes:

here is what I said in the first page of this thread. I've said similar things multiple times

"look, (clutch) is not JUST a matter of variance - but fans tend to wildly overrate clutchiness."
 
His average was .326. He hit for an average of .875 in the example. I don't think an analysis could be correct if there is a math error.

Being that a hit/no hit situation could be exactly like a coin flip, I don't know how 7/10 could come into it when we're analyzing 7/8 at bats.

Also a coin flip would regress to .500. The mean here is .326, so the variance is between .326 and .875 which would be greater than .500 to .875.. Seems like a lot to me if the analysis is accurate.

I think he is doing his best to ignore your evidence because it goes against the 'study' he found that supports his hypothesis that clutch doesn't exist, or is so statistically irrelevant as to be meaningless. Clearly the study of one special individual, Yaz, violates his overarching hypothesis.

The thing is that I don't see a conflict. It might be true that a general survey of many athletes concludes that on the whole, clutchness doesn't play a large factor. But that's talking about people in GENERAL.

The arguement RayClay poses is that certain INDIVIDUALS, such as YAZ in this instance, have the special capability to rise to the occassion and have demonstrably done so in high pressure situations, such as playoffs, championship series etc. And his stats back it up. Yaz' performance is far above his statistical mean, which pretty much eliminates variance as a random factor. Does this conclusively prove that clutchness exists? It's hard to say but it certainly can lead any reasonable, and nonpiggheaded *cough*homer*cough* person to infer that it might well exist in this case study.

What other examples can we look at across the sports to see clutchness? Michael Jordan's amazing playoff performances and 6 championships for instance or say Tiger Woods legendary ability to close the deal whenever he has the lead on Sundays? These examples exist. Nobody knows for sure what makes these special individuals able to give clutch performances in the most high stress situations. That is a job for the sports psychologists and sports scientists that has not even come close to being unraveled yet. If they ever did uncover that secret I think the ability to create supersoldiers or superhumans would not be far behind. But for now it is limited to a select number of individuals that can raise their ability levels in certain important situations.

Now do you have any real evidence that conclusively DISPROVES that Yaz, Jordan, and Woods have performed better in clutch situations than 'normal' people, or is your pontification limited to spewing a narrow theory with no backup except for your own bald assertions?
 
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Now do you have any real evidence that conclusively DISPROVES that Yaz, Jordan, and Woods have performed better in clutch situations than 'normal' people, or is your pontification limited to spewing a narrow theory with no backup except for your own bald assertions?


re: Yaz, yes, and I've linked to it a few times in this thread. here it is again.

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/CramerClutch2.htm

re: RayClays example, it's laughable. he's taking extremely small sample sizes and trying to extrapolate grand meaning from them. and even then, he said that clutch hitting wasn't a skill, so I don't know what the real point is.

I am quoting studied which showed the results of hundreds of players - Yaz included - over much larger sample sizes
 
His average was .326. He hit for an average of .875 in the example. I don't think an analysis could be correct if there is a math error.

Being that a hit/no hit situation could be exactly like a coin flip, I don't know how 7/10 could come into it when we're analyzing 7/8 at bats.

Also a coin flip would regress to .500. The mean here is .326, so the variance is between .326 and .875 which would be greater than .500 to .875.. Seems like a lot to me if the analysis is accurate.



You cannot take averages alone. For instance, 7/8 = 35/40 average wise. But the chance of Yaz going 35+ out of 40 with an expected .326 success rate is virtually 0. The chance of him going 7+ out of 8 is .0022.

The coin flip example was out of 50 tries. Using 8 tries though, 7+ out of 8 heads would be a probability of .0352. I used 36+ out of 50 to show the probability of that event happening. The probability of an event in the binomial distribution does not and can not ignore sample size. 7/8 = 35/40 does not come into play here at all.



Take Yaz's .326 batting average. The probability he goes at least 1 out of 2 is .5457, the probability he goes at least 20 out of 40 is .0167. 1/2 = 20/40 = .500. Do you get what I mean now?
 
re: Yaz, yes, and I've linked to it a few times in this thread. here it is again.

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/CramerClutch2.htm

re: RayClays example, it's laughable. he's taking extremely small sample sizes and trying to extrapolate grand meaning from them. and even then, he said that clutch hitting wasn't a skill, so I don't know what the real point is.

I am quoting studied which showed the results of hundreds of players - Yaz included - over much larger sample sizes


Do you even listen to yourself? How many athletes are considered "clutch"?? Certainly not the "hundreds of players" so this "study" is worthless. Very few players are considered "clutch"...NOT hundreds. So your point in factor in enough players that are not "clutch" and you will get your point...gotcha...brilliant!
 
1st this a football board so why are you insistent on using baseball? Is it because there are more "stats" to pick from and some geek decided to reduce athletes to machines when they are not. You cannot get rid of the human element, weather or various other circumstances that you just CANNOT put in numbers.

Also I bolded your one sentence for two reasons. First you finally ar admitting that it exsists...finally! Second yeah real minor unless you actually want to win:rolleyes:


Us being human lends itself to statistics :). Flipping a coin for example is 50-50 because we are human. If we were machines that flipped the coin from the exact same position with the exact same force in the exact same direction, it would land at the exact same place (ignoring air resistance and other environmental effects of course lol), and thus not be 50-50.

Most things can be put into numbers though, but things with a ton of variables and tiny sample sizes (like football) won't give you a much greater analysis than what your eyes see most of the time. At least I don't think.
 
I've given the #'s numerous times in this thread. the odds of winning ALL games X,Y,Z can be found by multiplying the individual odds to win each game.

2 posters mocked me for stating a mathematical proof.

so I offered money on my side to back up my statements. neither replied.

You expect me to search this massive thread and read all your posts? Clearly your ego exceeds your reach sir.
The problem is that your simplistic formula does not in fact consider ALL factors possible.

For instance it cannot account for overall team as well as individual talent, egos, coaching, teamwork, preparation, injuries, etc. Therefore your formula is merely a convenient tool, and nothing more than that, to calculate ROUGH probabilities while telling us nothing conclusive.

Can your formula predict that Randy Moss would catch something near 150 yards and a TD in a crucial performance against the Colts or that Wes Welker would catch a key TD, then make a key 3rd down catch to seal the game against the Colts secondary? Can it account for injuries to Marvin Harrison, Gonzales, and Ugo and the resultant impact on the Colts as a team? No it cannot.
In short your formula is far too CRUDE to be used as a confident predictor of results in football games.

IF you can manage to make a substantial enough argument to disprove my points, I would be glad to make a wager. Let this wager at least benefit a charitable foundation. The loser of said wager is to donate $50 to the Bread of Life. My wager is that your crude and oversimplistic formulas prove bubkus, and that the Patriots will go 16-0. If I lose I will admit that the gods of probability defeated me and I will donate the aforesaid $50 to the above charity. If you lose, you will admit that your formulas don't amount to a hill of beans, and you will donate $50 to the above mentioned charity.

Regarding the 1977 article which you cited as proof: http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/CramerClutch2.htm

The Player Win Average is without doubt a perfect measure of which hitters (and pitchers) are winning and losing games. But its computation, with the requirement of an accounting for every situation in every game, is forbiddingly expensive even when the data are available, and quite impossible in general since play-by-play information is not saved by the major leagues.

Even the author of the article admits that computing an accurate PWA is impossible because of the lack of play to play situational data that is not recorded. So your FOUNDATION of proof lies upon an impossible feat? How interesting. And ultimately worthless.

It concludes with a pretentious conclusion:
So fades a legend-but after all, what was really meant when someone was called a "clutch hitter"? Was he really a batter who didn't fold under pressure-or was he a lazy batter who bothered to try his hardest only when the game was on the line?

Which really tells us nothing, except it is wrapped in a pretty bow. Reminds me of the so-called 'logic' you keep trying to employ on this thread. BTW if you find yourself being on the butt end of mockery, it's probably because you're pretending to be smarter than you actually are. Reasoned arguments are welcome on this forum, but expect people to call you out when they come to see the gaps in your logic. And why you would think some outdated article written in 1977 is the ultimate proof of anything is beyond me. Thank you come again.
 
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Do you even listen to yourself? How many athletes are considered "clutch"?? Certainly not the "hundreds of players" so this "study" is worthless. Very few players are considered "clutch"...NOT hundreds. So your point in factor in enough players that are not "clutch" and you will get your point...gotcha...brilliant!

you don't understand. they took the results of hundreds of players (everyone who played in the league) in an attempt to find the few who were clutch
 
IF you can manage to make a substantial enough argument to disprove my points, I would be glad to make a wager. Let this wager at least benefit a charitable foundation. The loser of said wager is to donate $50 to the Bread of Life. My wager is that your crude and oversimplistic formulas prove bubkus, and that the Patriots will go 16-0. If I lose I will admit that the gods of probability defeated me and I will donate the aforesaid $50 to the above charity. If you lose, you will admit that your formulas don't amount to a hill of beans, and you will donate $50 to the above mentioned charity.
.

Sounds good, the wager is on.

However – note that what I am talking about is ODDS. The odds are in my favor, but they are just probabilities. Just like I could make a bet that a coin wouldn’t land on heads 5 times in a row, and almost always win. But the times I lose doesn’t mean my opponent has found a coin that is good at landing heads, it just means he got lucky

Regarding the 1977 article which you cited as proof: http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/CramerClutch2.htm

The Player Win Average is without doubt a perfect measure of which hitters (and pitchers) are winning and losing games. But its computation, with the requirement of an accounting for every situation in every game, is forbiddingly expensive even when the data are available, and quite impossible in general since play-by-play information is not saved by the major leagues.

Even the author of the article admits that computing an accurate PWA is impossible because of the lack of play to play situational data that is not recorded. So your FOUNDATION of proof lies upon an impossible feat? How interesting. And ultimately worthless.

It concludes with a pretentious conclusion:
So fades a legend-but after all, what was really meant when someone was called a "clutch hitter"? Was he really a batter who didn't fold under pressure-or was he a lazy batter who bothered to try his hardest only when the game was on the line?

.

You stopped reading too soon, the authors explain why their methodology works just fine
But thanks for the insults
 
what are you talking about? I've linked to various articles and books in this thread which not only discuss #'s, but give their real world implications.

You got the jargon down - implication: something implied or suggested as naturally to be inferred or understood. It goes something like this - statitician:" I looked at the Troopers' stop data and it implies he's racial profiling." State Police chief: "so I can reprimand him based on your findings." Statitician: "of course not, there are other variables that can't be quantified making it impossible to definitively state he's racial profiling, but we should keep tabs on him and keep looking at his numbers." State Police Chief: "so we have to keep you on the payroll indefinately?" Statitician: "exactly."
 
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we can't see the numbers, the variables are too great - clutch will never be incorporated effectively in a stat (number)
I tend to afree...although I would like to see some of these number crunches TRY and do that...and I tend to be a stat nut as well....but football is just so different than other sports..more a team game...so stats might not apply as much..
 
you don't understand. they took the results of hundreds of players (everyone who played in the league) in an attempt to find the few who were clutch


Are you really this obtuse? So they took everyone in the league to prove who was "clutch" yet they couldn't find Yaz? RayClay has shown you that he has the "clutch" stats, yet you need everyone in the league for what? We are not talking bout the ENTIRE league (IN pre 1977 and based on a 1970 study using 1969 figures) we are talking about a few players that are considered clutch. Why would you use OTHER players to validate ot invalidate Yaz's stats...his performance speaks for itself and more often than not Yaz stepped up his game in the playoffs and WS Period. (oh by the way your "article" said this about Yaz...To give away the first answer in advance, Yaz was the most consistently untimely hitter in the majors in 1969 and 1970. But no one who saw Yastrzemski play in September 1967 would ever believe that "Carl is a good hitter, but not quite as strong when a game or the pennant is on the line"! Pretty much RayClay blew this BS out of the water as Yaz was exceptional when it counted as PROVEN by his playoff and WS stats...he raised his game yet this moron says he wasn't.....I also like how he explains away timely hits as "luck" or your "variance". Funny I see hitters making all kinds of adjustments in thier swings WHILE swinging based on the pitch they are seeing and how the pitcher is throwing, the defense ect. But if he gets a hit more often in high pressure situations we can write it off as luck instead of focus...well most of the time after all I have to be able to come to the conclusion I started with)

As for your original premise that this BS applies to football also I notice you are not pulling out the "stats" you completely MADE UP anymore.

In a previous post you stated you said "clutch" exists but it is over rated?? OK THEN WTF is your point? So you are saying that we as fans "overrate" "clutch"? You have got to be kidding you spent all this time telling us fans that we "value" "clutch" to much? OH OK I will try and temper my enthusiasim next time Brady has the ball on a final drive or Big Pappi steps up in the bottom of the ninth because you really showed such a "benefit" of this concept for everyone. Oh yeah what is the "concept"??? Oh fans to you "overvalue" "clutch" because some geek figured out in numbers in 1977 that according to him "clutch" exisits but just not as much as we beleive??? WTF? Do you really have a point at all?
 
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Are you really this obtuse? So they took everyone in the league to prove who was "clutch" yet they couldn't find Yaz? RayClay has shown you that he has the "clutch" stats, yet you need everyone in the league for what? We are not talking bout the ENTIRE league (IN pre 1977) we are talking about a few players that are considered clutch. Why would you use OTHER players to validate ot invalidate Yaz's stats...his performance speaks for itself and more often than not Yaz stepped up his game in the playoffs and WS Period.

actually, they did find Yaz, but found that his hitting was UNTIMELY, when they (intelligently) decided to look beyond a laughably small sample

in fact, subsequent, more rigorous & recent studies have found the same thing.

here is one which actually does a good job of quantifying the small affect clutch really has

http://www.dolphinsim.com/ratings/notes/clutch.html

a couple notes about this article. it was conducted using the data from all MLB games in 1969 and 1972-1992, as well as in AL games for 1963, 1967, and 1968, and then trimmed down to only include "clutch" situations.

it estimates that a .285 hitter could posssibly turn into a .300 hitter in clutch situations. (note that Yaz was NOT one of them, in fact he was labeled a "choker")

however, a similar study using 1999-2003 data did not come to the same conclusion -there was no statistical signifigance. I think it's likely that as athletes have gotten better/more advanced/used to playing under the bright lights for their whole careers, they have gotten more used to the "pressure", and it has a whole lot less affect than it used to.

In a previous post you stated you said "clutch" exists but it is over rated?? OK THEN WTF is your point? So you are saying that we as fans "overrate" "clutch"? You have got to be kidding you spent all this time telling us fans that we "value" "clutch" to much? OH OK I will try and temper my enthusiasim next time Brady has the ball on a final drive or Big Pappi steps up in the bottom of the ninth because you really showed such a "benefit" of this concept for everyone. Oh yeah what is the "concept"??? Oh fans to you "overvalue" "clutch" because some geek figured out in numbers in 1977 that according to him "clutch" exisits but just not as much as we beleive??? WTF? Do you really have a point at all?

hey man, if you couldn't understand what I was saying, that's your problem not mine. but in my OP I linked to an article whose conclusion was

"Clutch hitting ability exists, more than previous research would indicate. It's about on the order of something like baserunning ability. Sometimes baserunning can make the difference between success and failure. Sometimes a hitter like David Ortiz gets a bunch of big hits down the stretch, and it makes the difference in a pennant race. Usually, though, it's the big three that prevail: Pitch the ball, catch the ball, and most of all hit the ball."

it's not my fault you didnt read it
 
I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous to imply that all the players in the NFL perform at the same exact level in relation to each other when under extreme pressure. Which is what being clutch relates to. I know if I have to go up and kick a SB winning FG, I'd buckle, which is why AV gets paid millions and I get paid jack ****. You seem to totally misunderstand the concept of sports with the whole mathematical formula thing.
 
I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous to imply that all the players in the NFL perform at the same exact level in relation to each other when under extreme pressure. Which is what being clutch relates to. I know if I have to go up and kick a SB winning FG, I'd buckle, which is why AV gets paid millions and I get paid jack ****. You seem to totally misunderstand the concept of sports with the whole mathematical formula thing.

all NFL athletes have spent years and years performing under pressure situations. pro athletes they are not like you and me. in general, they're affected by pressure a whole lot less than we are, and the differences among them are small. that's what the data says, sorry if you don't believe in math
 
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