Cleveland fans don't value JAG

[sb1]

stick around......your stupidity will be rewarded

Denial... yup. You know how the rest goes.

 

[Nehalem]

I mean, CLE would be paying for one cheap year of JG, with no guarantee they can sign him long term. If he didn't want to be in CLE, they'd have to tag him, then they'd have a disgruntled QB eating up 20M or whatever the tag will be next year. So CLE would have to have some kind of agreement in place before trading for JG, which means he'd want a market value contract starting now. Are you giving up 2 1's, or a 1 and 2 2's, for the chance to pay a barely known guy 16M or 18M for five years? Yes, if he hits, then it's a good deal, but if he's so good why (in this scenario) is NE trading him? Meanwhile CLE could just draft a ton of guys with the picks they otherwise would have traded, all of whom have a shot to outperform their contracts. There are a lot of moving parts here, and you can see why they don't want to give away the farm.

They gave up 16M in capspace to get a 2nd round pick. Paying a succesful JG 20M next year seems like a good deal to me

 

[IllegalContact]

Cassel at least beat a good team or two including blowing the soon to be NFC champs right off our field. Can't say the same about your binky Jimmy.

he also looked incredibly stupid at times.....bad enough to have to put kevin oconnell in

kevin

oconnell

stick around.....your stupidity will be rewarded

 

[IllegalContact]

Denial... yup. You know how the rest goes.

you help me make my case

 

[brdmaverick]

anyone who even attempts to assert that cassell had anywhere near the talent and mechanics of garoppolo is an idiot

1.) My response did not make any comparison between Cassel and Garrapolo. More just a disclaimer that our offense can make a QB look good (a poor one, average one, or all star).

2.) Honesty I'm not sure it would be wise for anyone to declare someone 'the real deal' after 6 quarters. Sure, it makes for good message board banter, but I wouldn't be so confident as an NFL front office executive and that's what it comes down to.

 

[Richard Camembert]

They gave up 16M in capspace to get a 2nd round pick. Paying a succesful JG 20M next year seems like a good deal to me

Good point. But CLE is turning around and trying to get teams to take Ost and defray their costs, so it may not end up being 16M for a 2nd unless they can't get anyone to bite. If they don't, they have a QB who can sort of play who gets factored into that deal, and who would obviate the need for JG. Also, the whole point is that they may not want to blow three premium picks for the chance to pay a guy 20M.

 

[sb1]

he also looked incredibly stupid at times.....bad enough to have to put kevin oconnell in

kevin

oconnell

stick around.....your stupidity will be rewarded

Disingenuous. Cassel was only pulled late in the Miami wildcat game and O'Connell threw....4 passes. He also did mop up in the Cardinals game where as I said Cassel blew them the eff off our field. What good team has your binky ever beaten? It isn't just me that's asking this question either, it's all of the team's possible trade partners.

And even if he did get yanked in the Miami game.. so what? It's not like that hasn't happened to Brady. I'm sure if your binky had a chance in that category he wouldn't have disappointed either.

 

[sb1]

you help me make my case

I'm afraid wishful thinking just doesn't make it so.

 

[Ring 6]

We don't know for sure. All I said is Kessler is not the answer and he is not.

You don't know that. In fact he played pretty well last despite having crap surrounding him.

Kessler has never won an NFL game. He had 8 starts and went 0-8. That should tell you all you need to know about him.

You are blaming that on him? Garoppolo would have been 0-8 with that team too.

You can point out he went 6 TDs 2 Ints with a 95 QB rating. Okay. Pretty stat line. You can accomplish that as a game manager.

What? I'm talking about QB play not what you describe stats as what they could mean.

Against the Dolphins he lead his team to 17 offensive points over 4 quarters. JAG tore that same D apart and scored more in half the time.

And Kessler had the patriots playing with him?

Kessler's record.
Miami: 17 offensive points.
Wash: got 20 points against (one on a drive that started 12 yards from the GL)
Pats: Had a nice drive but the Pats slept walked on that one as we all remember.
Tenn: scored 13 points till the last 5 minutes and lead 2 garbage TDs drives.
Cinci: Got hurt again.
Dal: Put up 10 points (but a 104 QB rating!)
Balt: Put up 7 points (but 92 QB rating!)
Pitt: Didn't play much but did nothing
SD: Barely played.

Actually he did pretty well for a rookie on by far the least talented team in the NFL.
There is no solid reason to say garoppolo would definitely have done better on that team.
It's a lot more than garoppolo did as a rookie.

This is not the what a promising QB does. He showed here that a team can protect him and help him put up decent stats. But they had him take no risk he couldn't score and couldn't win a single game.

Wait you are now telling me that his stats are inflated because he got to play for the browns?????

Jimmy played in 2 games and won both.

On the best team in the NFL. Kessler played on the worse team in the NFL.

He took them over at times.

Not true. He game managed vs Arizona (remember he loses if they make the FG, to a team that has a losing record)
He had 3 awesome drives vs Miami then 3 weak ones. Then he was out.

To say he showed as much as JAG is just not true. They are certainly not the same. JAG proved way more in less time. Still not a sure thing but he showed promise and like i said. Kessler showed none.

Given the teams they were on the fact that Kessler was a rookie and their college pedigree that's just a terrible assessment you are making.

It depends on the situation. You didn't give me enough details and you were too vague. Instead of answering that I will answer the more direct "what would I want the Browns to do if I was a Browns fan?". This works better as it is not theoretical and I have a lot more information.

If I were a Browns fan I would want the Browns to do 1 of 3 things. #1 Trade for Romo, #2 Trade for JG or #3 punt on QB and go all in for a much more promising group next year and for now improve the team as much as possible in other spots. That would be my mind set. You could do both Romo and draft a QB next year but JAG makes it harder to draft a guy next year. It is slightly more risky but has more upside than the Romo option. However I think Romo doesn't want to go to CLE and his team owner will honor that so that option is probably out.

If I am the Browns front office looking at JG I do honestly like what I see and think he has a decent chance to be pretty good instantly. However no way I give up a 1st in 2018 cause I need it. If things go very wrong with JG I need to have a high first that year cause that class has good QBs and I feel I have a good chance to hit there. So that is instantly off the table. Also I don't give up the #1 Overall this year. Garrett is nearly a sure thing and I want him on my team.

However I do believe in the QB so I would roll the dice and take a shot on him. I was convinced in what I saw in the 6 quarters he played he belongs starting in this league and can change my franchise and I know if he hits I save a first rounder next year which I would need to use on a QB anyway so it is an asset I would need to gamble as is.

I would offer the Pats as my best offer #12 & #53 this year and the Titans second next year. It is a lot to give up but I can part with those seconds and not feel too bad. If It works you look like a genius cause you gave up so little for a franchise QB. If not yes it hurts but the #12 isn't overly valuable this year TBH and you didn't cripple yourself to extend for him.

If the Pats don't take the offer I use those picks to help build my team and bet everything on the 2018 QB class. However that is 1 shot and I know if I miss I am probably kicked out of town. My final thinking in going for the JAG trade is 2 shots are better than 1.

Again you are looking at it from a point of considering only the best case and not looking at that you are trading for a backup who has barely played for 3 years which is as big a factor as what he did for 6 quarters.

 

[BobDigital]

You don't know that. In fact he played pretty well last despite having crap surrounding him.


You are blaming that on him? Garoppolo would have been 0-8 with that team too.

What? I'm talking about QB play not what you describe stats as what they could mean.

And Kessler had the patriots playing with him?

Actually he did pretty well for a rookie on by far the least talented team in the NFL.
There is no solid reason to say garoppolo would definitely have done better on that team.
It's a lot more than garoppolo did as a rookie.

Wait you are now telling me that his stats are inflated because he got to play for the browns?????

On the best team in the NFL. Kessler played on the worse team in the NFL.

Not true. He game managed vs Arizona (remember he loses if they make the FG, to a team that has a losing record)
He had 3 awesome drives vs Miami then 3 weak ones. Then he was out.

Given the teams they were on the fact that Kessler was a rookie and their college pedigree that's just a terrible assessment you are making.

Again you are looking at it from a point of considering only the best case and not looking at that you are trading for a backup who has barely played for 3 years which is as big a factor as what he did for 6 quarters.

Well Thanks for the detailed response. I do appreciate them and the effort you put in. It seems we simply have very different opinions on this matter and that is fine. I could tell you why i disagree but it would just be us both arguing the same points over and over. I think we just see it differently.

 

[rochrist]

He looked good, don't get me wrong. But so did Matt Cassel while he was here, and we had a lot more than 6 quarters to base it on. One of the things that's made Brady so remarkable is his durability. Jimmy lasted basically one big hit before he went out. Could have been a fluke thing, but durability is something you have to prove over time, and at best you can say he's a question mark there. 1.5 games proves nothing either way.

I'm okay with them trading him OR keeping him, for the record. Insurance is a nice thing to have. I'm just saying I don't blame other teams fans for being hesitant to believe a backup will come in and perform just as well, day in and day out, for a team that isn't as well run or well coached as the Patriots.

You don't know that. In fact he played pretty well last despite having crap surrounding him.


You are blaming that on him? Garoppolo would have been 0-8 with that team too.







What? I'm talking about QB play not what you describe stats as what they could mean.



And Kessler had the patriots playing with him?


Actually he did pretty well for a rookie on by far the least talented team in the NFL.
There is no solid reason to say garoppolo would definitely have done better on that team.
It's a lot more than garoppolo did as a rookie.



Wait you are now telling me that his stats are inflated because he got to play for the browns?????


On the best team in the NFL. Kessler played on the worse team in the NFL.



Not true. He game managed vs Arizona (remember he loses if they make the FG, to a team that has a losing record)
He had 3 awesome drives vs Miami then 3 weak ones. Then he was out.



Given the teams they were on the fact that Kessler was a rookie and their college pedigree that's just a terrible assessment you are making.




Again you are looking at it from a point of considering only the best case and not looking at that you are trading for a backup who has barely played for 3 years which is as big a factor as what he did for 6 quarters.

Some of Kessler's reported weaknesses:

• Lacks ideal height and frame for a quarterback
• Significant arm strength issues, velocity on intermediate to short range leaves a lot to be desired
• Will hold ball a tad too long to try and get extra mustard on it, leads to passes dipping early down the field
• Past 15 yards, accuracy to all areas of the field plummets
• Deep ball placement is all over the place, rarely finds range to put pass on the money
• Touch throw accuracy is poor, struggles to find proper range
• Will often check down to easy throws underneath due to limitations deep
• Has to crank the ball up to drive it down the field or to the far hash, slows delivery

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

would hope.... I mean hope, that the Browns see the situation the Texans got themselves into with Brock Osweiler and proceed with caution on these backup guys. There's a reason they ain't starting.

LOL!!!

 

[IllegalContact]

1.) My response did not make any comparison between Cassel and Garrapolo. More just a disclaimer that our offense can make a QB look good (a poor one, average one, or all star).

2.) Honesty I'm not sure it would be wise for anyone to declare someone 'the real deal' after 6 quarters. Sure, it makes for good message board banter, but I wouldn't be so confident as an NFL front office executive and that's what it comes down to.

Using that logic, then drafting QBs in round 1 is even more stupid

 

[Ring 6]

Well Thanks for the detailed response. I do appreciate them and the effort you put in. It seems we simply have very different opinions on this matter and that is fine. I could tell you why i disagree but it would just be us both arguing the same points over and over. I think we just see it differently.

I don't think its agree or disagree I think it's that there is not enough info on either player to draw as clear a line as people want to draw.

 

[Ring 6]

Some of Kessler's reported weaknesses:

• Lacks ideal height and frame for a quarterback
• Significant arm strength issues, velocity on intermediate to short range leaves a lot to be desired
• Will hold ball a tad too long to try and get extra mustard on it, leads to passes dipping early down the field
• Past 15 yards, accuracy to all areas of the field plummets
• Deep ball placement is all over the place, rarely finds range to put pass on the money
• Touch throw accuracy is poor, struggles to find proper range
• Will often check down to easy throws underneath due to limitations deep
• Has to crank the ball up to drive it down the field or to the far hash, slows delivery

Sounds a lot like a scouting report I read about 17 years ago in some guy drafted in the 6th round.

 

[lurker1965]

The Cleveland front office looks at Jimmy G and sees a high chance at a franchise QB for 10-15 years who will play at a good level (no certainly but a better than fair shot).

Looking at the Cleveland forum most fans laugh at the idea of trading a first round pick at all.

Garoppolo Watch: March Edition

Many of them seem happy to pick from a crop of QBs this year that stink or go with Kessler. The idea of giving up the #12 seems too high a price for many and 2 is near laughable to them.

My question is this: What the heck are many of these fans thinking? Yes draft picks are great and valuable. Yes football is a team sport and throwing away everything else to get a QB gets you no where. Yes, maybe JAG turns out not to be that good. All possible and fair points.

Here is the truth. Picks hit and miss. The QBs this year are not good no matter how much you try to talk yourself into them. Kessler is not your answer.

In fact the worst thing they can do is draft a QB this year. If I was a cleveland fan I would be pounding the table not to do it. If drafting is the way you want to get your QB accept you will be bad this year and bet big on next year.

I just was shocked at the disconnect here. It is like they assume that Kessler will somehow magically turn out to be decent (he won't) or this years QBs hold reasonable promise (they don't).

I know ultimately the Browns front office makes the call but these fans need to get their heads on straight. The only thing I can assume is it has been so long since they have had decent QB play they have no idea what it looks like anymore.

Think about the Cleveland fan track record. They cheered for Art Model firing Paul Brown. They supported a washed up Bernie Kosar when their eyes should have told them Belichick had a point. When Art Modell moved the team they blamed Art Model... and Bill Belichick.

 

[deroc5050]

Fans overrate first round picks. Always have. Whoever they pick at #13, you can pretty much guarantee he won't be as good or fill as great a position of need as Garoppolo.

Sure, a first round pick can turn into JJ Watt. But, this being the ****ing Browns and all, it's far more likely to turn into Justin Gilbert, Johnny Manziel, Trent Richardson, Brandon Weeden, or Barkevious Mingo.

And for that matter what has the amazing JJ Watt actually won in the NFL? Getting a top flight QB is priority #1 but I have no clue what the Patriots are doing. Or for that matter what they have actually been offered.

 

[deroc5050]

He looked good, don't get me wrong. But so did Matt Cassel while he was here, and we had a lot more than 6 quarters to base it on. One of the things that's made Brady so remarkable is his durability. Jimmy lasted basically one big hit before he went out. Could have been a fluke thing, but durability is something you have to prove over time, and at best you can say he's a question mark there. 1.5 games proves nothing either way.

I'm okay with them trading him OR keeping him, for the record. Insurance is a nice thing to have. I'm just saying I don't blame other teams fans for being hesitant to believe a backup will come in and perform just as well, day in and day out, for a team that isn't as well run or well coached as the Patriots.

Cassel had a record setting offense to work with and basically lost every competitive game that season. They beat all the scrubs and lost to all the good teams. Cassel was decent but I think JG is the best QB they've drafted since Brady.

If the Browns are offering #12 and a 2nd rounder and the Patriots don't take it, something is up. It just doesn't make sense unless...

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

As much as us Pats fans would love to see us getting the most in a trade for, or seeing him lead us to SB's 7-9, I would definitely hesitate to trade for JG at the current asking price if I were a team like the Browns.

The upside is there, no doubt. However, there was zero tape on him, or Brissett. How many times have we been Matt Flynn'd (We called it the Scott Mitchell effect, back in my day) by a team we had no tape on. If BB can't stop a guy without tape on him, of course the other coaches can't either. That makes both of our guys look good going into the season. Everyone knows the rule, get a season of tape on a guy and you can find a way to slow him down. I'm quite sure JG is more than NFL ready, but the small sample size is just that, a small sample size of NFL play during the starting gun point of the season. He's not end of the season ready, he's not playoff ready, and he's certainly not SB ready, no matter he's seen.

That being said, fleece the whole draft board for JG BB, and if you get Larry Fitz somehow, we'll rename Martha's Vineyard into Bill Belichick's Trophy Island.

 

[deroc5050]

Sounds a lot like a scouting report I read about 17 years ago in some guy drafted in the 6th round.

lol Brady doesn't count.. sorry no one saw that coming. Can't use that as an example on the NFL top 10 draft steals ever, Brady was #1 by a wide margin. We haven't seen a 5th round QB or later ever take off in the NFL since Brady was drafted in the 6th round.