Cap Implications of Keeping Brady AND Garoppolo

[Ring 6]

You're completely full of crap.

I acknowledged in the first paragraph of the OP - which I subsequently quoted for you a second time for reference - that there was debate going on about JG's future status. And I said if we accept the premise that BB wants to keep both JG and TB, what would that look like financially and roster-wise.

All you added was to repeat your opinion, given many times in many different threads already, which everyone in patsfans already knows, that JG isn't staying.

Well the point of the thread is to PRESUME he IS staying, for the sake of the argument.

In other words.... You added absolutely nothing other than your usual drivel, which we all already knew about. No new information. Just the same opinion that you've shared dozens of times already in numerous other threads.

So we should start a thread about what would happen if Tom Brady played left handed and tell people theyvarecnot allowed to say he wouldn't play left handed?
Your thread sucked. Get over it.

 

[Ring 6]

We are splitting hairs.

OK, both of these are part of the same issue.
1) The team can afford JAG long-term, and Brady as long as he is able.
2) JAG may or may not be willing to sign a LT contract with the patriots, even at starting QB pay.

No. 2 is not viable. After 4 years as a backup and finally achieving free agency with the belief he can start somewhere there is just no reality where he would sign a long term contract to backup a guy he can't possibly beat out who has publicly stated many times he wants to play at least 5 more years. It would be career suicide, and these are the patriots sovhe would have to accept less money to not play.

 

[ivanvamp]

So we should start a thread about what would happen if Tom Brady played left handed and tell people theyvarecnot allowed to say he wouldn't play left handed?
Your thread sucked. Get over it.

If you want to start such a thread, be my guest.

People WERE actually talking about the topic I raised, in case you haven't gotten your head out of your ass and actually paid attention. That didn't stop idiots from spoiling it with the same opinions on the same subject that they've offered dozens of times now in numerous different threads.

 

[pazrul72]

No. 2 is not viable. After 4 years as a backup and finally achieving free agency with the belief he can start somewhere there is just no reality where he would sign a long term contract to backup a guy he can't possibly beat out who has publicly stated many times he wants to play at least 5 more years. It would be career suicide, and these are the patriots sovhe would have to accept less money to not play.

I've stayed out of this because you only see black and white on an issue that actually has a TON of gray but I think something you have to consider is Brady might NOT play 5 more years for the patriots. Brady has also said his wife wants him to retire and spend more time with his family and her public comments support that stance. While it hasn't happened yet and his routines focus on flexibility it's still possible Brady tears his rotator cuff in the next 2 years and is never the same guy. I think you can safely say Grop is going to at least be a Tony Romo caliber QB and has the potential to be a Drew Brees. Will he? Who the hell knows that's part of the gray you refuse to acknowledge. I think it's a fair question to say would you prefer 2 years of Elite Brady or 8-12 years of at least competent QB play and there is NO clear you're a moron if you believe differently answer.

Now I was solidly in the trade Grop for at least a first and ride Brady as long as you can camp. The fact that he wasn't traded speaks volumes to me that Bill believes he has a gem in Grop and is working on the assumption that he will be a starter for the Pats at some point. I think point #2 that you said no way in hell will happen is a possibility. Again I don't know Grop and it's definitely in the gray area but personally I hate change and maybe he does too. It would be worth it to me to wait another year, for a significant pay raise, to not have to learn a new offense, a new coaching staff, and most importantly IMO a new owner that potentially values making money over winning. If my choice was get starting money and wait one year while playing for the best franchise in sports or get starting money and play for the Browns I am choosing to sit. One year is not too much to ask. Of course that requires the Pats to commit to Grop as the starter in 2019 and move on from Brady. Bill might do it I am not him so am basing all of these on the actions I have seen taken so far. What I would not do is question or be overly distraught if he did choose that route because I understand the thinking.

I read the board same as you do and have seen nobody suggesting that in 2017 Brady is not the best QB on the team and the guy who gives us the best opportunity to win another championship. What they are asking is that true in 2018? 2019? 2020? Is Grop better then a QB we can draft late in the first in the next couple years? I would say yes due to having, at that point, 5 years in the system. Basically all I am saying is the people wanting Grop over Brady in 18 or 19 are not idiots and every time you refuse to at least acknowledge they COULD be right, even if you passionately disagree with them, makes you look like a giant ***hole.

 

[Tony2046]

1) This is untrue. If JAG is franchised, it is quite possible that he might decide NOT to sign a long-term contract.

2) What also is possible is a long-term agreement with JAG, which Brady playing as long as he is able.

What is the possibility of Brady signing a contract in which he earns vet minimum? Serious question.

 

[Tony2046]

If you want to start such a thread, be my guest.

People WERE actually talking about the topic I raised, in case you haven't gotten your head out of your ass and actually paid attention. That didn't stop idiots from spoiling it with the same opinions on the same subject that they've offered dozens of times now in numerous different threads.

Hey could you please ignore that crap. Everyone, save one, understands the purpose of this thread.

 

[ivanvamp]

Hey could you please ignore that crap. Everyone, save one, understands the purpose of this thread.

I'll do my best.

 

[Tony2046]

I'll do my best.

Tough I know. If splitting hairs was an olympic event........

 

[Ring 6]

If you want to start such a thread, be my guest.

People WERE actually talking about the topic I raised, in case you haven't gotten your head out of your ass and actually paid attention. That didn't stop idiots from spoiling it with the same opinions on the same subject that they've offered dozens of times now in numerous different threads.

Boo hoo.
You have spent more time whining about me posting in your preciuis pointless thread than I did posting.

 

[ivanvamp]

Boo hoo.
You have spent more time whining about me posting in your preciuis pointless thread than I did posting.

Just replying to your falsehoods. It would make all of our lives easier if you'd knock it off. As you can tell... I'm only one of a sizable number of people that have issues with your posts. Maybe you should get the hint.

Now I'll try to follow Tony's advice and ignore any more of your nonsense here. I may not succeed but I'll try.

 

[Ring 6]

Just replying to your falsehoods. It would make all of our lives easier if you'd knock it off. As you can tell... I'm only one of a sizable number of people that have issues with your posts. Maybe you should get the hint.

Now I'll try to follow Tony's advice and ignore any more of your nonsense here. I may not succeed but I'll try.

Yes quantum mechanic going around and agreeing with all of your posts certainly makes a sizable amount.

You should be thanking me for salvaging your thread because there have been more posts regarding the direction I took in than there were about how you could afford to put together a contract that a player would never sign.

 

[zydecochris]

JG, I'm sure, really wants to be a starting quarterback in the NFL.

But what if he really wants to be the starting QB of the Patriots MORE than he wants to be the starting QB anywhere else?

What if he is willing to take starter's money to sit a few more years and then, without suffering wear and tear on his body, be basically guaranteed the starting job in New England?

McDaniels has turned down, over the past couple of years, interviews to be the head coach of other franchises (and the pay raise that comes with it) in order to stay the OC with the Pats. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe he really IS the designated successor to BB. Maybe he just prefers his current role. I don't know. But it's possible in reality for a person to decline to take a promotion because his ideal job can be had if he's patient just a few more years.

For anyone saying there's no way in hell that JG would voluntarily stay here as TB12's backup for a few years....

Why is this not a possibility? Does anyone here have inside info into JG's thinking? Has anyone here talked to JG about this or seen him give an interview about this?

Well, I for one have found this thread to be interesting, and this post is really outstanding, kudos. My definition of a great post is one that brings up an unexpected and unique point of view, and then gives reasoned explanations. Based on that criteria, this post rates an "A+" in my book. I'm surprised nobody has really responded to your premise (that perhaps it is NOT absolutely 100% certain that JG wouldn't stay if he couldn't start) beyond name-calling. Or, maybe I'm not so surprised after all.

So, let's think about this premise you made for a minute. What would JG's options really be to start for another team? What teams really need a starting QB? They are:

1. Starting for a terrible organization on a sucky team with no QB: This would be San Francisco, Cleveland, the Jets, and maybe Jacksonville.
2. Starting for a terrible organization that can't decide what to do at QB: This would be Buffalo and Washington.
3. Starting for a team that has spent a gigantic amount of draft capital on QB: This would be Kansas City, Houston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Chicago, maybe Tennessee and maybe Jacksonville (once again).
4. Start for a team with a QB making noises about retiring: This might be Arizona and as a long shot maybe Pittsburg

So, let's look at these options. Options 1 or 2 would essentially be to go to a horrible organization to start at QB, or as Milton said in Paradise Lost: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." Or, my modern translation is: "Better to start in a hellish organization than serve as backup on the Pats." As Ivanvamp pointed out, are we really, really sure it is a no-brainer that JG would do this? And, I would argue that for the Option 3.) teams, even if they don't have a solution at QB yet, the GM is unlikely to admit failure (and pay big $$$ on JG) after they have spent so much draft capital on a QB, that is a good way to become a former GM.

JG hasn't really spoken out about what he thinks, but if I was him the most appealing choices are the Option 4 teams, pretty good teams that may need a QB in the future. With Pittsburg, although Big Ben has made noises about retiring, somehow I think he will have a hard time walking away from all that money for several more years. And, would JG, with his quick release, precision game, really fit Pittsburg's offense? To exaggerate a bit, it seems like it consists of wide receivers running around like crazy while Big Ben dodges around and sheds tacklers. Actually, with a little seasoning, Brissett would seem to fit that offense better.

Then, finally there is Arizona. This is the only one that really makes even a slight amount of sense to me, as Palmer won't be there too long. But even in that case, Arizona has a terrible offensive line, and JG would have to learn a completely new offense.

So: to re-visit Ivanvamp's original (IMHO very thought provoking premise), are we really absolutely, 100% sure, no other possibility, that JG would rather "reign in Hell" (i.e., start for a sucky team) instead of "serving in Heaven" (as backup for the Patriots), with a likely future opportunity to start for the best organization in the NFL?

 

[ivanvamp]

Thanks zydeochris. Appreciate it.

I think most guys would prefer a starting job in the NFL over a bench job, even if the starting job is in a dumpster fire of an organization and the bench job is with the Patriots or Steelers or Packers.

But it's *possible* that JG thinks differently, and if enough money is sent his way, could think, "I'd rather stay here and wait for my chance to be the starting QB here than go get myself killed in Los Angeles."

 

[deroc5050]

JG, I'm sure, really wants to be a starting quarterback in the NFL.

But what if he really wants to be the starting QB of the Patriots MORE than he wants to be the starting QB anywhere else?

What if he is willing to take starter's money to sit a few more years and then, without suffering wear and tear on his body, be basically guaranteed the starting job in New England?

McDaniels has turned down, over the past couple of years, interviews to be the head coach of other franchises (and the pay raise that comes with it) in order to stay the OC with the Pats. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe he really IS the designated successor to BB. Maybe he just prefers his current role. I don't know. But it's possible in reality for a person to decline to take a promotion because his ideal job can be had if he's patient just a few more years.

For anyone saying there's no way in hell that JG would voluntarily stay here as TB12's backup for a few years....

Why is this not a possibility? Does anyone here have inside info into JG's thinking? Has anyone here talked to JG about this or seen him give an interview about this?

I could maybe see 1 year.. but 2 years? If your a competitor you want to play. Then again if a team offered to pay you a considerable amount of money like 20 mil a year for being a back up I guess its possible.

But it won't happen because the Pats are not going to pay JG starting QB pay and pay Brady starting QB pay. I just can't see it.

Maybe 1 year but I think that would be unprecedented.

 

[ivanvamp]

I could maybe see 1 year.. but 2 years? If your a competitor you want to play. Then again if a team offered to pay you a considerable amount of money like 20 mil a year for being a back up I guess its possible.

But it won't happen because the Pats are not going to pay JG starting QB pay and pay Brady starting QB pay. I just can't see it.

Maybe 1 year but I think that would be unprecedented.

Definitely would be an unusual situation, that's for sure. But then again....when have we ever had a situation like this in NFL history, where a HOF QB is still playing at a HOF level at nearly 40 years of age, and the team loves the backup and may see him as the true successor in the years to come, but the contracts are lining up in kind of a strange way as to not make it easy.

 

[zydecochris]

Definitely would be an unusual situation, that's for sure. But then again....when have we ever had a situation like this in NFL history, where a HOF QB is still playing at a HOF level at nearly 40 years of age, and the team loves the backup and may see him as the true successor in the years to come, but the contracts are lining up in kind of a strange way as to not make it easy.

Well said. It is really a completely unprecedented situation.

 

[ivanvamp]

Well said. It is really a completely unprecedented situation.

Montana is probably the closest comp, but his situation was a little different. He was terrific as a 33 year old (1989), and pretty darned good, though not *great*, as a 34 year old (1990). He got hurt and missed all of his 35 year old season and only played one game of his 36 year old season. So when it was time to decide between keeping him and letting Steve Young be the starter, Young already had the job in 1991 for 10 games (putting up a 101.8 rating) and 1992 (putting up a 107.0 rating), and by then was the best QB in football.

So for SF, the better QB was the young, healthy guy, not the old, injured guy who hadn't had a good season for two years. Easy call.

For the Patriots, the better QB is the older guy (almost 40), still putting up elite numbers and winning Super Bowls, but the younger guy, the presumed future, has a contract that is running out before the older guy's.

Just a different situation than anything that's really existed before in the NFL.

 

[deroc5050]

Montana is probably the closest comp, but his situation was a little different. He was terrific as a 33 year old (1989), and pretty darned good, though not *great*, as a 34 year old (1990). He got hurt and missed all of his 35 year old season and only played one game of his 36 year old season. So when it was time to decide between keeping him and letting Steve Young be the starter, Young already had the job in 1991 for 10 games (putting up a 101.8 rating) and 1992 (putting up a 107.0 rating), and by then was the best QB in football.

So for SF, the better QB was the young, healthy guy, not the old, injured guy who hadn't had a good season for two years. Easy call.

For the Patriots, the better QB is the older guy (almost 40), still putting up elite numbers and winning Super Bowls, but the younger guy, the presumed future, has a contract that is running out before the older guy's.

Just a different situation than anything that's really existed before in the NFL.

Still if the Patriots Franchised JG for 2018, by 2019 a decision is being made. And Brady will be 42 before the 2019 season begins.

I don't really know but if BB thinks JG is good enough to franchise him and keep him for 2018 and then lock him up with a real contract in 2019, honestly thats the best possible situation for fans of the team.

We get to keep Brady for 2 more seasons and then move on to the younger QB who hopefully is a top 5 QB in the league.

I myself have a hard time seeing Brady play past 2019.. in 2020 he will be 43 years old.

Us fans won't get what we want though, a decision will most likely be made after this season.

 

[supafly]

It is really a completely unprecedented situation.

It is indeed unprecedented, and that's one of the bigger reasons why I think there's a bit more gray area than meets the eye.

That's certainly not meaning to dispute AJ's notion that common sense and past decisions point to proper cap management, etc. No one would argue with that, as it's a solid point. As I've mentioned before, I read a quote from either one of the Kraft's or Belichick stating that they prefer to pay a franchise QB between 12-15 percent of the salary cap. IIRC, This was sometime during the 2005 period where Brady had recently signed an extension, so it's been awhile, but even now/next year, another poster mentioned that Brady will account for 13 percent, so it seems to be a rule that they still believe in very firmly.

Is it possible that they could move away from this rule for one, possibly even two seasons under the right circumstances if they believe that they may have their next franchise QB well trained and ready to go? Absolutely, it is. Without a doubt.

Now, is it likely? Probably not, in my opinion, but there are scenarios where it may happen, sure. In the end, there may be some variables involved with the decision that pertain to March 2018 that we just cannot predict in May 2017. The possibility of injury, a concussion, a 6th SB, a "plan" that attempts to get all on the same page, etc may become clearer once the season has been completed.

 

[ivanvamp]

I have to think the Patriots are exploring every possible way they could keep JG and TB for the next few years, leading to the transition from Brady to Garopollo. Whether it works out or not remains to be seen.