The Patriots were toast before the season began- a casualty of the salary cap.

[203Pat]

With more and more huge money owners buying teams and the success of the Rams and Eagles who spend "over the cap" in actual cash spent it is going to be hard for the "poorer owners" to compete in the coming years. Look at some of the more recent NFL owners. Shad Kahn in Jacksonville, David Tepper in Carolina, Josh Harris in Washington, the Waltons in Denver. They are owners who can dig deep and pay over the cap year over year and it won't matter as much as far as the dreaded "cap hell" because they can convert salaries into signing bonuses and pay up front where as some of the other owners without the liquidity can't do that on a consistent basis.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A

With more and more huge money owners buying teams and the success of the Rams and Eagles who spend "over the cap" in actually cash spent it is going to be hard for the "poorer owners" to compete in the coming years. Look at some of the more recent NFL owners. Shad Kahn in Jacksonville, David Tepper in Carolina, Josh Harris in Washington, the Waltons in Denver. They are owners who can dig deep and pay over the cap year over year and it won't matter as much as far as the dreaded "cap hell" because they can convert salaries into signing bonuses and pay up front where as some of the other owners without the liquidity can't do that on a consistent basis.

I’d like teams to be able to get an annually increasing cap credit for retained players. So maybe Patrick Mahomes counts 100% against the cap in year 1 with the Chiefs, 95% in year 2, 90% in years 3 etc.

My issue with the cap, and the NFL in general, is the excessive turnover which makes it a worse experience as a fan.

 

[203Pat]

A


I’d like teams to be able to get an annually increasing cap credit for retained players. So maybe Patrick Mahomes counts 100% against the cap in year 1 with the Chiefs, 95% in year 2, 90% in years 3 etc.

My issue with the cap, and the NFL in general, is the excessive turnover which makes it a worse experience as a fan.

To me it should either be a hard cap or no cap at all. This weird malleable cap that allows so much maneuvering and now even more maneuvering if the owner is willing to pay up front is just a weird half measure. Either let the rich owners buy championships like has historically been the case or put a hard cap that doesn't allow for all the loopholes and void years and other two dozen ways to manipulate the money.

 

[Patriot Missile]

A


I’d like teams to be able to get an annually increasing cap credit for retained players. So maybe Patrick Mahomes counts 100% against the cap in year 1 with the Chiefs, 95% in year 2, 90% in years 3 etc.

My issue with the cap, and the NFL in general, is the excessive turnover which makes it a worse experience as a fan.

It couldn’t be worse than mlb. Imagine being a bottom feeder team year after year, every time you grow a top prospect you have to trade him because he’s gonna cost 250 million.

Red Sox were fun to follow up until recently when they started pretending they were a small market team. Made me realize some of those championships were bought and paid for because they were willing to spend in the top 5. It really is a distinct advantage.

If football becomes manipulated like that I’ll just walk away from that too.

 

[Ring 6]

This is irrelevant to the argument about whether Kraft is cheap.

If you want to argue the Patriots are spending poorly, or they should have a different spending approach, that's a perfectly valid argument. But you can't argue that he's unwilling to spend the salary cap money he's given without explaining how he's getting that money into his pocket.

I didn’t think there was anyone worth taking seriously that thinks Kraft is cheap.

I was responding to the other posters question about the difference between cap and cash and some of the numbers presented here.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree but Russell Wilson is neck and neck.

Russell Wilson us now, but he won early in his career.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Russell Wilson us now, but he won early in his career.

He won with a historically good defense. Still he was a good quarterback at his peak. Even with all the sacks, inefficient scrambling and inability to sustain actual drives (as opposed to home run plays) he was still an overall good QB, but he was never close to MVP level or even all-pro as many claimed.

His team’s offensive output has always lagged way, way behind his passer rating.
Even this year he’s 3rd in the league in passer rating while the offense is laughably anemic and he’s getting booed off the field.

 

[Ring 6]

He won with a historically good defense. Still he was a good quarterback at his peak. Even with all the sacks, inefficient scrambling and inability to sustain actual drives (as opposed to home run plays) he was still an overall good QB, but he was never close to MVP level or even all-pro as many claimed.

His team’s offensive output has always lagged way, way behind his passer rating.
Even this year he’s 3rd in the league in passer rating while the offense is laughably anemic and he’s getting booed off the field.

He won by doing his part. Can’t ask more. Can’t take credit away from winning because of having good teammates unless you can show who ever win with bad teammates ( nobody).
Passer rating is a formula designed to help people who don’t understand the game judge numbers. It’s a rudimentary approximation.

Watson has better stats but those stats add up to 34 wins and 29 losses.
Wilson has won 111 and lost 69 and we 104-53 before he fell to pieces in Denver.

Stats accumulated while losing never meant much to me. Give me the guy who wins.

 

[venecol]

Cash and escrow stuff is completely irrelevant to salary cap. When does the money actually go into the player’s bank account? It has zero bearing on cap space.

But not to the owner. That was in response to why ppl say Kraft was cheap since he has to spend to the cap. Cash flow matters to the owner. The guaranteed portion of the contract needs to be paid up front. Owners don't want to do that.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

But not to the owner. That was in response to why ppl say Kraft was cheap since he has to spend to the cap. Cash flow matters to the owner. The guaranteed portion of the contract needs to be paid up front. Owners don't want to do that.

My guess is Bob is thrifty. I’m trying to think of an example where he saved a few bucks…

 

[raduray]

Here is the argument.
If team a signs a guy for 1 year 5 mill and team b signs a guy for 5 years 40 mill with a 5 mill first year cap hit include a 15 mill signing bonus, both teams spend 5 on the cap, team a sorbs 5mill AAV, team b 8 mill AAV. Team a 5 mill cash this year and ever, team b 17 mill cash this year and 40 mill ever.

But in that example team a has about 10 mill more in cap to spend next year, and 35 mill more ever.

Interesting, but it doesn't speak to the Kraft is cheap charge.

 

[Wozzy]

Check out the more advanced stats on Watson (EPA, DVOA, ANY/A) where his sacks and negative plays are factored in. He was never a great QB but was a little above average.

You can’t fake leading the league in total offense ahead of Patrick Mahomes, ranking 1st in passing yards or posting the second highest QB Rating in the league. You simply can’t.

Analytics is junk science.

 

[Wozzy]

And where is Cincinnati right now? Burriw is 28-20-1 in his career. They made it to a SB once and lost and were knocked out last year because that OL that you think is irrelevant got him sacked 5 times.
Many teams elevate their QB and are very competitive because they have very good OLs. Philly, SF are 2 examples.
It’s not about whining about Mac, it’s about the reality that a good OL makes the entire offense better and the same guy you would say sucks behind a bad one loos good behind a good one.

I never said “O-Line is irrelevant,” not sure where you got that from. I’ve said multiple times here if the Bengals GM put a great line in front of Burrow he would have won back to back championships the last two years.

Mac sucks, he makes his offensive line and weapons look worse. No team opposite him is scared of Mac Jones, they lick their lips in anticipation when they play him. Mac’s a turnover machine.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You can’t fake leading the league in total offense ahead of Patrick Mahomes, ranking 1st in passing yards or posting the second highest QB Rating in the league. You simply can’t.

Analytics is junk science.

Mental midget stuff

 

[Wozzy]

Mental midget stuff

Mental midgets need bookworms to explain football to them, when basic statistics tell you everything you need to know.

Analytics told us Stephon Gilmore was a bad player when the Pats decided to pay him rather than Malcom Butler… how’d that work out?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Mental midgets need bookworms to explain football to them, when basic statistics tell you everything you need to know.

Analytics told us Stephon Gilmore was a bad player when the Pats decided to pay him rather than Malcom Butler… how’d that work out?

You cite passer rating and then call more accurate QB performance rating formulas “junk science”

I was 100% pro Gilmore when they signed him

 

[1960Pats]

not arguing for or against it...

just a thought if the idea is to get teams to fiscally act like there is a hard cap is in play instead of the way it is now - a soft cap disguised as a hard cap...

The only things being disguised are related to the finances and duties of the management of the team. I saw somebody post on another board that he could find Bill's salary somewhere but I don't think so. Do we even know who's calling plays on defense? I don't think we know that either.

Now if you want to know about the players you can get every single detail right down to the last dollar they make, how it's broken down and for how many years. That way we can complain about the players but not the screwups made by the coaches.

 

[Wozzy]

You cite passer rating and then call more accurate QB performance rating formulas “junk science”

I was 100% pro Gilmore when they signed him

Passer rating is a simple formula that rates efficiency based on basic stats.

Analytics is a bunch of number crunchers who happen to be football fans who never played the game trying to find preexisting narratives they’ve already arrived at in their minds.

I’m reminded of Mike Lombardi telling the tale of the time he had PFF’s guru of player grades in the building when he was with the Raiders. The guy wasn’t prepared when Lombardi set him in front of a monitor and asked him to tell them what was happening on a given play. He had no clue about scheme, responsibility, leverage, contain, or any basic football knowledge.

Football isn’t that difficult, they’re not launching a rocket into orbit. They’re moving an inflated pig bladder down a field using 11 guys… no need for a protracter.

I wouldn’t doubt a large part of the “analytics” community was funded by the bookmakers in Vegas to confuse the rubes.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Passer rating is a simple formula that rates efficiency based on basic stats.

Analytics is a bunch of number crunchers who happen to be football fans who never played the game trying to find preexisting narratives they’ve already arrived at in their minds.

I’m reminded of Mike Lombardi telling the tale of the time he had PFF’s guru of player grades in the building when he was with the Raiders. The guy wasn’t prepared when Lombardi set him in front of a monitor and asked him to tell them what was happening on a given play. He had no clue about scheme, responsibility, leverage, contain, or any basic football knowledge.

Football isn’t that difficult, they’re not launching a rocket into orbit. They’re moving an inflated pig bladder down a field using 11 guys… no need for a protracter.

I wouldn’t doubt a large part of the “analytics” community was funded by the bookmakers in Vegas to confuse the rubes.

The stats I referenced are hardly analytics. Especially ANY/A. It can be calculated using the box score. It simply adds sacks/yards lost and assigns a more logical weight to the rest of the formula. I'm not even arguing with you that Watson had a good season and was one of the better quarterbacks.

Think about how stupid the passer rating formula is. On 2nd and 7, Tom Brady sees a pass rusher coming and throws the ball away. Russell Wilson in the same situation tries to scramble away and takes a 10 yard loss. Who put the team in better position? The passer rating formula rewards the quarterback who took the sack (no stats registered) and dings the one who took the neutral yardage (0/1, 0 yards) and also double whammies him with both Y/A and completion pct.

Wilson has a higher passer rating this year than almost any of Brady’s seasons yet is getting booed off the field and is a laughingstock.

The formula isn’t usually this skewed from reality, but for high sack players it is. Look at Watson’s sack totals. This is why it’s important to review other stats with him.

 

[Wozzy]

The stats I referenced are hardly analytics. Especially ANY/A. It can be calculated using the box score. It simply adds sacks/yards lost and assigns a more logical weight to the rest of the formula. I'm not even arguing with you that Watson had a good season and was one of the better quarterbacks.

In 2020 I’d say Watson was a great QB, with good weapons, a bad offensive line and terrible defense.

The only difference between what Burrow did the last two years and Watson did in 2020 is the Bengals defense was a top ten unit. The Texans D allowed the 30th most points in the league that year.

It’s very possible for a great QB to be on a bad team and not win games. We saw Brees lead the league in passing three years in a row, his team had the dead last defense and his teams only won 7 games. It wasn’t his fault, ultimately it’s a team game and you need to good/great in all three phases.